More Elf vs Wizard quesions

[bizarrojoe]

Some of this has been touched on here in the forum, but I haven't seen a solid concensus yet, so I thought I'd ask.

1. Does an elf use its intelligence modifier for spell checks?
2. Can an elf conduct spellburn?

It seems to me that since the elf already has a natural affinity for magic use, that these are benefits that the wizard has exclusively. This kinda makes sense to me since wizards are achieving magical skills through unnatural means, and must rely on a keen intellect/memory and odd sacrifices to make a spell work just right. This is also the reason that only a wizard would suffer from wearing armor, since it could mess up the ability to articulate spell gestures just right. This is a contrast to the elf, that can more organically reach the same ends in whatever situation (as long as there isn't any iron strapped to him).

What are your thoughts?

[Dracones]

I've found the rules to be pretty ambiguous with elven magic. I sort of wish they made a much more careful use of the terms: spellcaster, wizard, cleric.

As in spellcaster is all casters, wizards only applies to wizards and so on. Maybe that's something for the next printing. Codify the terms and make their use consistent.

It seems to me that elves don't get the int bonus for spellcasting, they get luck on 1 spell, and can't spellburn. On the flip side armor doesn't impact their casting. To me that'd make sense in a balance perspective. Elves can't draw deep down for their magic the same way human's can, but are better fighters and their natural use of magic flows more easily from them. Corruption is always an issue still, maybe make the roleplay easier for patron effects since they're an elder race and more casual with spirits. Not sure about counter spelling.

Ideally elves would have their own corruption tables, patrons and mercurial magic.

Also there's also no reason an elf couldn't abandon his heritage magic and go full wizard like a human. Might be very unusual and rare though.

[GnomeBoy]

I'm pretty sure the whole "elves cast spells as wizards do" thing means "treat them like wizards in all ways (except when they're warriors and/or non-humans)".

Thinking it through from a balance perspective may be mis-leading yourself; the rarity of Elves on the occupation charts is a big part of the 'balance'...

[Ravenheart87]

Thinking it through from a balance perspective may be mis-leading yourself; the rarity of Elves on the occupation charts is a big part of the 'balance'...

Plus iron hurts them, which is pretty much everywhere in human community.

[Colin]

Yep, this point was discussed some time ago and it definitely seemed to be the case that elves are treated as wizards in all ways (spellburn, corruption, counter-spelling/duelling, mercurial magic, et al.) when it came to spellcasting, IIRC. As for elven-appropriate patrons, there is the King of Elfland.

Colin

[bizarrojoe]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Dracones]

I'm pretty sure the whole "elves cast spells as wizards do" thing means "treat them like wizards in all ways (except when they're warriors and/or non-humans)".

Thinking it through from a balance perspective may be mis-leading yourself; the rarity of Elves on the occupation charts is a big part of the 'balance'...

Yeah, re-reading the text description seems to indicate that. I really don't like the "rarity as balance" idea though. If you have an elf and a wizard in the party it's still going to be a matter of the elf prancing around the wizard singing "Anything you can do I can do better".

Yeah, I have players in my group that'd do that

I'm guess I'm more of a believer of niche protection. Easily house ruled with a re-design of the class though. I'm looking forward to seeing people come up with new classes on the forums and perhaps even new core class mechanics.

[funkaoshi]

Another thing to keep in mind is that you fall into being an Elf because your 0-level occupation was Elf something or another. Since your stats are random, you might be an Elf with strength that makes you a useless fighter, or intelligence that makes you a useless wizard. A human wizard would probably come about because a player had rolled a character with high intelligence.

[nebulous]

Is there a concensus that the elf is better than the wizard, or do they have enough subtle differences to balance them out?

[GnomeBoy]

Is there a concensus that the elf is better than the wizard, or do they have enough subtle differences to balance them out?

The inherent randomization built into the rules makes this at least somewhat (or entirely) moot. Your current Elf might be better than my current Wizard, or vice versa -- but corruption, spellburning and other short- and long-term changes that occur during play may tip the scales.

Personally, I think the scales look very fetching on your Elf...

[TheNobleDrake]

Is there a concensus that the elf is better than the wizard, or do they have enough subtle differences to balance them out?

My reading of all the various parts of the game tells me two things that I think are important regarding the "balance" between Elf and Wizard:

The Wizard has a base of 4 spells - The Elf gets 3 + Patron bond... Advantage Wizard because, while very flavorful and potentially powerful, Patron Bond has more downside to it from an "I get to do whatever I want" standpoint than any other spell the Wizard might get.

Wizards are, usually, better at casting spells - As mentioned before, you might roll a 7 Strength and a 4 Intelligence and find out that you are an Elf... or you might roll well for your Elf... but every Wizard is a Wizard because they chose to be. That is a clear advantage because it means you either A) would be "best" as a wizard or B) don't care about "best" and just want to be a wizard.

and... not as major since it is a setting thing: Racism.

[Colin]

Is there a concensus that the elf is better than the wizard, or do they have enough subtle differences to balance them out?

My reading of all the various parts of the game tells me two things that I think are important regarding the "balance" between Elf and Wizard:

The Wizard has a base of 4 spells - The Elf gets 3 + Patron bond... Advantage Wizard because, while very flavorful and potentially powerful, Patron Bond has more downside to it from an "I get to do whatever I want" standpoint than any other spell the Wizard might get.

Wizards are, usually, better at casting spells - As mentioned before, you might roll a 7 Strength and a 4 Intelligence and find out that you are an Elf... or you might roll well for your Elf... but every Wizard is a Wizard because they chose to be. That is a clear advantage because it means you either A) would be "best" as a wizard or B) don't care about "best" and just want to be a wizard.

and... not as major since it is a setting thing: Racism.

And there's the whole "Iron is a bane" element too, and it's pretty common. Plus, sure the elf can wear armor, but it inflicts a spell check penalty if it's heavier than padded, even if it is made of mithril. The mithril items they start with don't reduce the penalties, but simply mean that they can use those (highly conspicuous, desirable, and stealable...) items without being damaged. So, you can fight, but you'll be a second-rate warrior if you do, and your spellcasting will suffer for it. Lose that mithril armour or weapon and life becomes a hell of a lot more difficult for the unfortunate elf. Want new armour? Better stick to the lighter non-metal varieties because the rest is painful to you. Want a new weapon? Better stick to the non-metal weapons for the same reason. Captured and clapped in irons? Sucks to be you.

Colin