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 Post subject: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:18 pm 
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In my campaig, Elf can purchase the following piece of armor :
Mithril Chain Shirt (light chainmail)
AC : +5
Physical Penalty : -2
Arcane Penallty : -3
Speed : -
Fumble Die : d16
Cost : 100 PO for Elf Class

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:35 am 
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Seems pretty inexpensive for Mithril. Otherwise, the stats seem well done.

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:43 am 
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Yes it's inexpensive but the price is only for Elf Class

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:42 pm 
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New version

Mithril Chain Shirt (light chainmail)
AC : +4
Physical Penalty : -2
Arcane Penallty : -2
Speed : -
Fumble Die : d16
Cost : 100 PO for Elf Class, 1000 PO for others

Mithril Chainmail
AC : +5
Physical Penalty : -3
Arcane Penallty : -3
Speed : -
Fumble Die : d16
Cost : 150 PO for Elf Class, 1500 PO for others

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:52 pm 
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it doesn't make any sense that the same thing costs differently for elves than for other races. Just make it expensive - it will be the most desired piece of equipment for elves.

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Just read the rules :
At 1st level, an elf character may purchase one piece of armor and one weapon that are manufactured of mithril at no additional cost. Mithril armor weighs slightly less than iron or steel armor of the same type and can be worn by the elf without the pain normally associated with metal armors.

If you say that the cost is too low for the caracteristics of the armors, i can understand

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:37 am 
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raskal wrote:
Just read the rules :
At 1st level, an elf character may purchase one piece of armor and one weapon that are manufactured of mithril at no additional cost. Mithril armor weighs slightly less than iron or steel armor of the same type and can be worn by the elf without the pain normally associated with metal armors.

If you say that the cost is too low for the caracteristics of the armors, i can understand


I supposed that meant that an elf gets some heirloom, to make up for its weakness (i don't like this rule at all - it's like if a dwarf at 1st level got a pair of dwarven boots that speed him up, or if a halfling got a special pair of gloves that let him use weapons as if he were Medium sized - if Elves have a weakness, so be it. Taking it away by automatically giving items that bypass that weakness makes no sense at all. Just get rid of the weakness altogether, then.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:36 am 
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abk108 wrote:
it doesn't make any sense that the same thing costs differently for elves than for other races. Just make it expensive - it will be the most desired piece of equipment for elves.


You're kidding right...

*reads further down the thread*

abk108 wrote:
I supposed that meant that an elf gets some heirloom, to make up for its weakness (i don't like this rule at all - it's like if a dwarf at 1st level got a pair of dwarven boots that speed him up, or if a halfling got a special pair of gloves that let him use weapons as if he were Medium sized - if Elves have a weakness, so be it. Taking it away by automatically giving items that bypass that weakness makes no sense at all. Just get rid of the weakness altogether, then.)


Nope... guess not.
wow...

There are plenty of reasons for why the difference in cost could exist... from simple economics of the game world down to species advantage in technology. As a species, the Elves know that they have an allergy to iron, so maybe they never even bothered with learning that tech and specialized in mithril. Maybe for them working mithril is as easy as working with yarn... For all we know there are a bunch of Elves tucked away somewhere in a forest tending to some rather odd sheep and knitting up mithril sweaters for everyone.

or...

maybe its just simple economics in that Elves have the secret of cheap and easy mithril production, and don't want anyone else to reverse engineer their work. So, when the Humans come along asking to buy mithril items, the Elves jack the prices so high that the Humans have to mortgage their castles in order to pay for that mithril shirt of rings.

or...

maybe its just a simple matter of time... maybe the refining of the ore takes 200+ years and Humans simply can't make the stuff (unless they devise & construct multi-generational mining facilities) and the rules of supply and demand take over...

The reasons are as inexhaustible as imagination. Not everything HAS TO BE balanced out in the rule set... IMO it was the quest for standardization that killed D&D in later years of TSR & under WoTC.


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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:18 am 
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You just said "Elves can produce mithril cheaper", which is not so much different from "an elf get its first mithril set as a heirloom, or from his people as a farewell gift".
But it is very different from "Elves can buy mithril cheaper".

Everything you said makes sense, but it still makes no sense at all that if the party goes to a village shop to buy some equipment, then there's a sign reading "ELVES DISCOUNT - if you've got pointy ears, 80% off our mithril items!"

Maybe buying mithril costs less if bought FROM elven manufacturers, all right, and they might make other elves pay less than, say, humans or dwarves. But buying mithril in a general store, run by a halfling for example, shouldn't be cheaper for elves!!!

--------------------

And still, you haven't replied to why we need that "correction rule" to get rid of the elves' only weakness (and it's not even a terrible one... i mean you get a penalty after 24 h, if i remember right... take your iron shirt off for 8 h during rest and you're fine).
I still don't see anyone asking for Speed Boots of Moradin for dwarves or Cool Big-hand Gloves for halflings to make up for their weaknesses.
So why mithril for free ? O.o

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:18 am 
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abk108 wrote:
You just said "Elves can produce mithril cheaper", which is not so much different from "an elf get its first mithril set as a heirloom, or from his people as a farewell gift".
But it is very different from "Elves can buy mithril cheaper".


That's a false equivalency... just because they can produce it cheaply doesn't mean that they have to sell it cheaply. Sure, Elves aren't known to be as greedy as Dwarves, but as I pointed out in my last post, their motivation may not be to "get rich", but to restrict market access to the other races.

Quote:
Everything you said makes sense, but it still makes no sense at all that if the party goes to a village shop to buy some equipment, then there's a sign reading "ELVES DISCOUNT - if you've got pointy ears, 80% off our mithril items!"

Maybe buying mithril costs less if bought FROM elven manufacturers, all right, and they might make other elves pay less than, say, humans or dwarves. But buying mithril in a general store, run by a halfling for example, shouldn't be cheaper for elves!!!


I think you're splitting hairs a little too finely on this... the listed difference for price for Elves is obviously the "between Elves" price, and the second must then be the general market price: at least, that's how I interpreted things. For the record, if one of my players walked into a village shope and asked for mithirl items they'd get laughed at by the owner. Second, if you are a merchant that has managed to get a set of mithril armor (at the exorbitant prices the Elves charge to outsiders) and you're willing to then re-sell it... you're going to try and make a profit on the item: which just drives the cost up that much more. It's economics 101: the middle man always gets their money.
Quote:
--------------------

And still, you haven't replied to why we need that "correction rule" to get rid of the elves' only weakness (and it's not even a terrible one... i mean you get a penalty after 24 h, if i remember right... take your iron shirt off for 8 h during rest and you're fine).
I still don't see anyone asking for Speed Boots of Moradin for dwarves or Cool Big-hand Gloves for halflings to make up for their weaknesses.
So why mithril for free ? O.o


I thought about it, but then IMO the non-human races in the beta rules should be replaced entirely with something interesting. If they're going to start handing out allergies to the non-humans, then they should all have them. If I we're going down that path, I'd make the Elven allergy stronger such that they'd take extra damage from any contact with iron; I'd bring back the Dwarven inability to use magic spells and non-combat magic items* ; Halflings... well they've always been depicted as hearty eaters, so maybe they're born with hypothyroidism such that they gain a cumulative -1 to all actions per day any time they miss one of the 6 meals they require. In general, I don't see 1st level characters with a few 'buffs' as any real problem for the simple reason that there is always a 'bigger' & 'more dangerous' opponent out there.

I find the following to be true of any game-world environment: the society/kingdom/empire that the character finds themselves participating in has most likely been around for a lot longer than the character. In that time the society has most likely weathered a slew of nastier and more powerful hoodlums than any 1st level PC with Boots of speed, or gloves of the big-folk.

The point I was trying to make, is that there doesn't need to be a balancing game mechanic for everything.

@ raskal> I like your version, but then its not that different from the version I made:

Mithril Chainmail
AC : +5
Physical Penalty : -3
Arcane Penallty : -
Speed : -
Fumble Die : d14

I didn't bother with a cost, but given that the economy in my world is based on silver, and that gold is still 1:10 silver, then Elf price =free at generation of PC (per the beta rules) then 100gp/ +1 of AC or magic value of item, general trade price= 1000gp/+1 of AC or magic value of item. So mithril full plate would be free to Elven character at generation (if it fit the story) or if bought from another Elf later on the price would be 800gp. If the same armor was loose in the general market the price would be 8000gp... assuming anyone was daft enough to sell something that awesome.
-------------

* As I recall, AD&D Dwarves had 20% magic resistance... anytime they tried to use items other than arms and armor (or have spells cast upon them) there was a 20% chance that they didn't work for the Dwarf. Even helpful items or spells cast by allies were subject to this rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Tortog wrote:
../..

Mithril Chainmail
AC : +5
Physical Penalty : -3
Arcane Penallty : -
Speed : -
Fumble Die : d14

I didn't bother with a cost, but given that the economy in my world is based on silver, and that gold is still 1:10 silver, then Elf price =free at generation of PC (per the beta rules) then 100gp/ +1 of AC or magic value of item, general trade price= 1000gp/+1 of AC or magic value of item. So mithril full plate would be free to Elven character at generation (if it fit the story) or if bought from another Elf later on the price would be 800gp. If the same armor was loose in the general market the price would be 8000gp... assuming anyone was daft enough to sell something that awesome.
-------------


Interesting version : more bulky for combat (d14) but more adapted to magic user.

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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:13 pm 
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Another approach (which I intend to use) is to emphasize the word 'slightly'

"...an elf character may purchase one piece of armor and one weapon that are manufactured of mithril at no additional cost. Mithril armor weighs slightly less than iron or steel armor of the same type and can be worn by the elf without the pain normally associated with metal armors."

In otherwords, mithril is a metal that the elves aren't sensitive to - it doesn't have to be 'Tolkien' style mithril. So, other than a slight nuisance to find (perhaps like finding shoes if you have wide feet) - armor or weapons forged with mithril is no different than any other armaments.

Anyway, that's my plan...unless of course, the folks at Goodman Games contradict me with game material that says otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Mithril Chain Shirt
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:40 am 
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I'm more of the KISS philosophy. The starting mithril for an elf doesnt bypass the weakness because starting equipment is just that. Eventually that mithril chain will not be as protective as it was when the character started at first level (0 doesnt get the goods).


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