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 Post subject: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:39 am 
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So I had occasion to need some stats for an ambush where the party was going to be attacked with poison arrows and as I couldn't see how Poisons were being handled in DCC Beta I made some up on the spot. They seemed to work quite well so I thought I'd throw them out here for comment.

I have never been a fan of "save or die!" effects and quite frankly DCC is lethal enough so I decided to go with the old save or loose Xd6 Attribute points if you fail a save (save is generally half damage/loss) With the caveat that if any attribute goes to 0 as a result of this loss THEN you die.

With the use of attributes in Spellburn etc this makes venom a really scary thing for the party Wizards I found! Likewise with DCC characters tending not to have uber stats a 2d6 Str poison suddenly became life or death for many folks in potential!

Following on from these experiments I made up a generic disease effect as well which I admit is borrowing from the way Ol' Runequest handled diseases. But I liked that and it worked there so how about formally adopting a similar system here?

If memory serves Rq had a generic disease that attacked one Attribute per cycle if you failed your roll when exposed to it. Usually this was curable by rest and time once you had thrown it off (Though bad cases left permanent penalties) And I think that will work well as a simple system here in DCC

So that's what I'm playing about with and its working well and is easy to remember and execute. What are the thoughts on the subject if any?

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:00 am 
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hi i did something similar to what you did.

My poisons are usually not so deadly, they are so far -1d4 to an attribute, tops. Other times they reduce the maximum HPs of a character (like -1d4 max HPs). Fortitude Saves are at low DC , not more than 13 so far.

Diseases will work similarly maybe having smaller but prolonged effects. (like: -1 to STR and STA unless Fort Save is made; repeat every day until cured)

Since i'm not a fan of "campers" , intended as pcs that set up camp 4 times per session to regain lost HPs or ability points, i ruled that ability points are recovered only with extensive rest and treatment, which usually means between adventures.

Maybe for stronger diseases or poisons there could be extra rules, like if you lose -5 to a single stat, repeat the Save upon healing. If you fail, that stat is reduced by -1 permanently.

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:09 pm 
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I agree with the "Camper" problem brought on by too much attribute damage. I think in the light of that there should be a more rapid recovery in my games at least.

Perhaps:-

Fort save to avoid poisoning

If failed take x d? damage to attribute.

If that doesn't kill you. Make a save on the following day success = recover half remaining loss. Fail recover 1pt as per normal rules.

Naturally Clerical lay on Hands OUGHT in my opinion have at least a chance of purging the poison/disease unless GG wants to introduce spells tailored for that specific purpose. Maybe Lay on hands would also heal one attribute damage caused by poisoning/disease per 3pt of hp restoration or something. Not sure about that thats an early guess (Opinions?)

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:27 am 
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Ducaster wrote:
I agree with the "Camper" problem brought on by too much attribute damage. I think in the light of that there should be a more rapid recovery in my games at least.


It's curious how we suggest opposite solutions to the same problem :D
I like poison and disease to be feared much more than normal HP damage, so if HP heals quickly, poison and disease should carry over, unless cured by magical means!
In literature, poison is dreaded by characters much more than it is in any 3E game..

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:30 am 
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abk108 wrote:
It's curious how we suggest opposite solutions to the same problem :D
I like poison and disease to be feared much more than normal HP damage, so if HP heals quickly, poison and disease should carry over, unless cured by magical means!
In literature, poison is dreaded by characters much more than it is in any 3E game..


LOL! Yes I see what you mean. Thing is I don't seem to get much "camping out in the Dungeon" in my sessions. The game I'm running now is structured to take place over 4-5 days and some of the encounters are designed to occur during the night so my players know setting up camp is not a gaurantee they'll get a good nights rest!

You have a point. Poison/Disease ought to be feared because of a long term effect. Now that we have discussed this back and forth a few times my ideas are beginning to take a more concrete shape. how about this as a Sample Disease and Poison.

Witches Fever
A nasty airborn infection once thought to be caused by the cursing of a dieing witch.
Save yes (DC 14 Fort)avoids infection this time
Effect. 1d3 Sta drain each day a save is failed. If Sta reaches 0 then the character goes into crisis and gets a last save which if passed throws off the infection.
Aftereffect. If the character throws it off before they reach crisis point they recover 1d3 Sta per day but have a -2 on all disease saves until its completely gone.
If they survived a Crisis then they permanently loose 1 pt of Sta but become immune to further infection of Witches Fever

Starkhorn Venom
A contact poison favored by certain Assassins, made from the juice of of two rare plants boiled together.

Save If drunk None. If applied to a weapon Yes at -2 Vs Agl
Effect 2d6+3 Drain on Str within three rounds. If Str = 0 then they enter Crisis and get a second save to avoid death. Sucess means there system has assimilated enough of the venom to survive but at a cost.
Aftereffect A Character can recover fully if the antitoxin is applied immediatly after being exposed. But if the antitoxin is applied after the damage is done then it immediatly removes 1d6 of the Str drain. Otherwise the lost Str recovers at the rate of 2 pts per day modified by the CHaracters Sta modifier. (Yes this CAN be a 0 recovery if your weak! You need help then!)
If a character survives Crisis point there Str is permanently damaged by 2 points. If Anti toxin is applied within a day of poisoning this is reduced to one point of permanent Str damage


How do those sound as examples? This discussion has given me all sorts of nasty (and some not so Nasty) ideas!

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:54 pm 
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nice examples, though i wouldnt like anything that codified in the rulebook. It's too 3E-ish. I'd really like two lines saying how all poisons and diseases affect a character, and then an example for each type like
"Witch Fever", 1d3 STA/day; (Fort DC:14); 1 STA permanent.
"Starkhorn Venom", 2d6 STR, 3 rounds, (Fort DC:16); 1 STR permanent.

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:18 pm 
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I wonder if players will feel much impact from ability damage, in general. Since the bonuses are more 'spread out' than they are in straight-up 3e, you could go from a 15 down to a 9 and not feel too impaired. In DCC, that's only a change of 1 to the modifier; in 3e, it would be a change of 3.

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Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:52 pm 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
I wonder if players will feel much impact from ability damage, in general. Since the bonuses are more 'spread out' than they are in straight-up 3e, you could go from a 15 down to a 9 and not feel too impaired. In DCC, that's only a change of 1 to the modifier; in 3e, it would be a change of 3.


Its a good point. If DCC is teaching my folks anything its that you do not need Uber stats to be a great hero.

That said I haven't met anyone that didn't want to be just a little bit more powered up in some attribute someplace, and anything that dropped them back down was feared.

Abk108 your right I made the examples too codified. TBH I think that one or two detailed examples are what the rule book needs then a set of DM's tables to randomize the diseases/Venoms of that GM's world would be better as it would prevent players "Knowing" what they were suffering from...

Unpredictability seems to be the name of the game here forcing the players to THINK with what they have and not rules lawyer the best advantage they can out of the system...

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Just noticed that this double posted for some reason Apologies dunno what happened.

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Last edited by Ducaster on Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:23 pm 
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I'm not a fan of ability damage in general, so had the following idea for the effect of Poison/Disease:

Each has Potency / Frequency / Lethality

Potency is the DC for saving throws to avoid the effect.
Frequency is how much time between saving throws. Typically the first is immediately upon exposure.
Lethality is the maximum penalty the poison/disease inflicts.

The effect itself is an exponential series of negative penalties to all checks. So, first missed save is -1, then -2, -4, -8, -16 and lethal. If the penalty exceeds the character's Stamina they are immediately reduced to 0 hp. If the saving throw exceeds the DC by 5 then the character moves to the next lest severe penalty.

What I like is that the effect is easy to understand and apply, doesn't require a lot of recalculation, and allows for the dramatic race for the cure of the poison before the character succumbs.


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:52 am 
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meinvt wrote:
I'm not a fan of ability damage in general, so had the following idea for the effect of Poison/Disease:

Each has Potency / Frequency / Lethality

Potency is the DC for saving throws to avoid the effect.
Frequency is how much time between saving throws. Typically the first is immediately upon exposure.
Lethality is the maximum penalty the poison/disease inflicts.

The effect itself is an exponential series of negative penalties to all checks. So, first missed save is -1, then -2, -4, -8, -16 and lethal. If the penalty exceeds the character's Stamina they are immediately reduced to 0 hp. If the saving throw exceeds the DC by 5 then the character moves to the next lest severe penalty.

What I like is that the effect is easy to understand and apply, doesn't require a lot of recalculation, and allows for the dramatic race for the cure of the poison before the character succumbs.


So your saying all poisons & diseases should yield a blanket penalty on all checks? Not sure I can go for that makes them all so samey to my mind. I would have thought a disease that reduces a characters Str say, would be feared by fighters and looked on as an inconvenience for Mages for example.

Also how do you feel Magical and Skill healing should work on these things in general? How is that achieved in your subsystem? A cleric lay on hands reduces the penalty check maybe one category? Or....?

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:17 pm 
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I have nothing against special diseases and poisons when they are adding to the story. Given that the early RPGs that DCC is somewhat modeled on had a poison mechanism where you made one saving throw (with modifier for poison's strength) and a failure was death, well, I thought this was pretty fair.

Lay-on-hands is not a solution for poison/disease. I assume there will be spells to that effect, and certainly their should be anti-venoms and cures the characters can go questing to find.

Really I'll I was trying to do was put a few more steps and time in the "save vs. death" chain so that players could actually undertaking trying to save a poison or diseased character.


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:24 pm 
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meinvt wrote:
Really I'll I was trying to do was put a few more steps and time in the "save vs. death" chain so that players could actually undertaking trying to save a poison or diseased character.


I'm all in favor of that!

"Save or Die" always struck me as a terrible game mechanic as you have NO opportunity to RP your way into a solution. I suppose thats why I originally thought of a slow leeching of vital attributes that eventually caused you a final last ditch save or you die in my original post.

Though given the Luck burn mechanic we have here in DCC, I doubt anyone will die of a disease/poison that's less than instant!

Hmm conundrum time. How to tempt the players into allowing themselves to he a little bit hurt before they luckburn their way out of death...?

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:29 am 
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Ducaster wrote:
Though given the Luck burn mechanic we have here in DCC, I doubt anyone will die of a disease/poison that's less than instant!

Hmm conundrum time. How to tempt the players into allowing themselves to he a little bit hurt before they luckburn their way out of death...?

... and then they are down to 3 Luck and will die horribly next trap/spell/Climb check.

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:30 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
I wonder if players will feel much impact from ability damage, in general. Since the bonuses are more 'spread out' than they are in straight-up 3e, you could go from a 15 down to a 9 and not feel too impaired. In DCC, that's only a change of 1 to the modifier; in 3e, it would be a change of 3.


Excellent point...

Since I‘m running my campaign through DCC #1… the game mechanics for diseases & poisons is a subject of keen interest for me. I was planning on using the 3.x style “poison does XdX stat damage,” but after reading this thread and seeing the good ideas here, I changed my mind.

One of the remarkable things about the design of the DCC RPG system is that by not defining things too specifically the DM has the ability to: “write it like they need it.” There really isn’t a need for lists of animals, venoms, poisons, & diseases when you can go on-line and look up the real thing, and then describe it using game mechanics. This system lets us write the rules for effects as part of the Monster entries. So…

Here’s the design principles I might use when crafting venoms, poisons & diseases based on the documentaries I’ve seen and some light reading @ Wikipedia…
***

Venoms can have some seriously nasty affects, but are made by some creature and delivered via injury; while pollutants are a broad range of chemicals (artificial or natural) that affect the character because of inhalation, ingestion or simple contact. I’m still not sure how I want to emulate diseases. Most venoms fall into 3 categories [listed most to least lethal] - paralytics, hemorrhagics, & pain inducers.

1. Paralytic venoms are not the same as a “Hold Person” spell or the touch of a Ghoul or Lacedon, which only affect voluntary muscles. These venoms affect all systems, so they can stop the heart & lungs. These venoms usually block the nerves from communicating and spread quickly. Example: the “King Cobra” (Ophiophagus Hannah) can be over 5m long & delivers 380-600mg doses of venom and a man-sized victim dies within 15-45 min.

2. Hemorragic venoms quite literally shred the walls of the blood vessels & surrounding tissues. If left untreated the victim could die from internal or external bleeding from the interrupted clotting process. The onset of symptoms can be quite slow and unnoticeable unless there are multiple bites. Worst cast scenario is that the creature strikes a vein and the venom goes straight to the heart. Example: (Dispholidus typus) or “Boomslang” A small African tree snake delivers 1.6 to 8 mg doses. A man sized bite victim usually doesn’t notice the danger, as they only feel nauseous or have headaches for a few hours… then fall dead from shock and blood loss.

3. Pain inducing venoms are not intended to kill or subdue prey; they are usually intended to discourage attacking predators. They cause pain that is so intense it incapacitates the attacker and allows the prey to escape. The humble male Platypus (Ornithorhynchus anatinus) is a good example. Its spurs can deliver venom that causes severe swelling and crippling pain sufficient to kill small mammals from system shock. In a man sized victim the platypus venom won’t kill you, but the pain lingers for days and can last for months.
***

Based on that I came up with the following ideas, which are probably too codified for some, but I think they might work.

1. Paralytic venom game mechanics: On a failed Fortitude Save, a creature with this type of venom would give the victim 15 +3d10 minutes to receive anti-venom. During this time the growing numbness means the victim gets a universal -2 penalty during the first 5 minutes, then an additional -2 penalty for each 5 minutes or fraction thereof. The character makes a Fortitude Save every 5 minutes; and, the application of anti-venom grants a +5 to save rolls. Success means no further rolls necessary because the character produced the antibody needed to get rid of the venom; but, the character functions @ -2 on all actions until they have rested a full day or receive 2pts magical healing. Failure of any of these saves means instant death because the characters heart stopped.

2. Hemorrhagic venom game mechanics: a creature with venom similar to the Boomslang would need a different structure. In this case: if the creature roles a critical success; or, the victim fumbles their initial Fortitude Save [rolled at the time of the bite] then the venom is traveling up a vein towards the victims heart. The victim then has 1d10 minutes to administer anti-venom. If attacker gets a critical success & the victim fumbles their initial Fort Save, they are also allergic to the venom and suffer those additional affects. The victim suffers a -2 on all actions and abilities. The victim makes an additional fortitude save at 1 minute, & then makes an additional save every 5 minutes or fraction thereof with a cumulative -2 penalty. The application of anti-venom grants a +5 to save rolls. Success means the character has made an antibody to neutralize the poison, but they continue to suffer a -2 penalty until they can get enough rest or magical healing to eliminate the venoms damage.

On the other hand, if the victim simply fails the initial save they have 1d10 hours to administer anti-venom. During this time the victim suffers a -1 on all actions and abilities and makes additional fortitude save at 10 minutes, then makes an additional save every hour or fraction thereof with a cumulative -1 penalty. The application of anti-venom grants a +5 to save rolls.

In either case, any time a save is failed, the victim takes 1d3 points of bleeding damage; which may or may not be noticed. Roll Luck vrs. DC=11; success= bleeding is external & may be noticed.

3. Game mechanics for Pain Inducing Venoms: Upon failing an initial Fortitude Save this kind of venom creates a universal penalty. Every time the victim needs to act (including AC & combat) they must roll a Willpower save verses a DC set in the monster/event description. Failure means they are too overcome by pain to do anything. Success means the victim may act, but with a penalty. Each failed Willpower Save raises the DC & the baleful affects of the venom by 1. Each successful save reduces the deleterious affect of the venom & the save DC by 1. The monster entry will have the details for how often the saves are made; the victim must succeed on enough Willpower Saves to reduce the pain penalty to 0. Then the affliction is gone.

In the case of the male Platypus: a victim rolls a Fort Save w/ DC= 12 & must roll this save every 24hrs. If this initial Save succeeds then character has a -1 universal penalty until they can get a nights rest or 2 points of magic healing; failure means victim is racked by pain. While afflicted the victim must roll a Willpower Save w/ DC=15 [pain modifier included] in order to act and success means the action may be attempted with -4 pain penalty; while failure means no action possible. The victim must make the Fortitude Saves w/DC=16 to be rid of the affliction. The application of anti-venom grants a +5 to save roll.

In all three types of venom, the DM can alter the power of the effect by changing the DC values for venom in each monsters description, or the type of damage die, etc. Unless creature description specifies some other effect; when a victim fumbles their initial Fort Save they are allergic to the venom, +1 all further DC’s & suffers 2pts of damage, then +1 point of damage for each failed save.

While studying up on the subject I discovered that the common practice for making anti-venom involves the application of small doses of venom to a sheep or pig then “harvesting” anti-bodies from its blood. Alchemists or Healers could do this just as easily and then become the source for anti-venom. They would also be buyers for the vials of poisons harvested by Thieves and Assassins after an adventure.
***

Pollutants; from the fumes wafting off a huge pile of bat guano to the strange chemical your character just put his hand into after a messy battle in a Wizards lab, could be handled with a variation on the mechanics of pain venoms. (#3) i.e. Fail an initial save and suffer an ill effect that is only ended when the character makes enough saves, but could get a lot worse before it gets better.

Generally, I agree with the idea that character illnesses & recovery should be handled “off camera” between adventures. In theory diseases could be handled using methods #2 & #3. However, I’m reluctant to get too detailed with the diseases for the same reasons that I don’t like the so-called “campers.” I don’t think folks are interested in “Conan vs. the common cold.” If the rules get things accurate, then common Filth Fever could take the characters out of play for days or weeks right in the middle of an adventure. Somehow I don’t think players are all that keen to have a session or 2 lost because Gragnok “caught” something at the local brothel.

A Judge will need some rules for diseases, especially for things like Mummy Rot, and Lycanthropy; but the list of Magical diseases really isn’t that long and each could be described within specific monster entries: along with the recipes for their cures. There could also be plot specific diseases: the party must track down and defeat the Evil Wizard who created a contagion that is turning people into hamsters, but such things would have their own special mechanics… With this system the Judge has the ability to write rules for each situation as they arise & not have to worry about how to force the monster abilities or story to fit the “Rules Algorithms.”

Alternately, a Judge could make Lycanthropy, Mummy Rot, & Vampirism, etc. into curses and chuck the whole disease concept. In a situation where the characters are fighting against the minions of the Lords of Filth & Disease, the dirty nature of the dungeon combined with Evil emanations render healing magic less effective. The effect would also get stronger as the party goes deeper into the dungeon, but would begin to decrease as the party “deals with things.”

These are just some rough draft ideas that I’ve been mulling over in prepping for my game, now offered up for peer review.

Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:43 am 
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My thought is that this is exactly why I proposed a dirt simple basic rule. I think all your ideas are interesting and thematic, but best left to inclusion in specific monster/setting descriptions. Those sorts of things are easily popped into a campaign when appropriate, but seem like a lot of rules overhead when you just want to know what the potential penalty for having been struck by the knave's poison knife should be.

Also, you need a way to handle old school modules that would say something like "The centipedes have a poisonous bite, but it is relatively weak, so +4 on saving throws". With only that much guidance my desire is to have a baseline that isn't save or die, but also very simple to apply.

Lycanthropy and Mummy Curses in particular I think are better suited to monster descriptions than base rules. They can reasonably vary depending on setting in any case, and that leaves more mystery in the minds of the players.


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Grats to Tortog for a well researched and thought out set of ideas.

But I also have to agree with meinvt that these are great examples but I really hope there isn't a huge long list of super detailed venoms/diseases/pollutants described in the final rule books.

One thing becomes more clear I think Mr Goodman... Give us an example of each type of irritant then give us some guidelines how to make up our own in our particular game setting.

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:28 am 
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Ducaster wrote:
Grats to Tortog for a well researched and thought out set of ideas.


Thanx! This thread kind of "dove-tailed" with my research for the bestiary I'm putting together for my version of "Find Familiar." :)

Quote:
But I also have to agree with meinvt that these are great examples but I really hope there isn't a huge long list of super detailed venoms/diseases/pollutants described in the final rule books.


Not what I was trying to say; and I agree, no one wants to wade through big long, detailed lists of anything in the rules. What I was trying to say is that if my adventure encounter needed a large venomous snake; I'd research cobra's & other large snakes and then write up all the rules I needed as a function of the monsters description. Then I tried to show some other examples of how I'd write the rules for different creatures. This system leaves things wide open so that you can "fill-in-the blanks" as you need them filled. :) Each rule set is then unique to that creature. Rogues & Assassins might then be out adventuring and use their Handle Poisons skill to "collect" samples of rare and deadly poisons. No more shopping lists for poisons either.

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One thing becomes more clear I think Mr Goodman... Give us an example of each type of irritant then give us some guidelines how to make up our own in our particular game setting.


I think all we might need is some guidelines on setting the DC values for the various levels of potency.


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:45 am 
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A couple of points here... I like many of the ideas that were presented. I don't actually have too much of an opinion here on Poison or Diseases, but I would like to throw out a few things to the pile of ideas.

Poisons:
Most poisons have a lengthy onset time to actually kill someone. Well, longer time if they are not physically active and spreading the poison throughout the body.

Since there are three major types of poisons (delivery methods), we can treat them all with the following statistics. Heck diseases fall into this category also.

Contact -- slower
Injected -- fast acting, direct to blood stream
Inhaled -- fast acting, direct to blood stream

In all cases, natural venom are deadly but not 'combat' quick killing. Some magical poisons can be very quick to to kill...

So for each poison or disease there will be the following statistics:

Onset time: Amount of time until first save. Please note that repeated exposures to the effect should incur a negative modifier on the save. (if save is made, no further repeats)

DC: How deadly the effect is

Damage: HP, ability score damage, etc...
Damage on save: what happens on save

Repeat delay: How long between subsequent saves
Number of saves required: # of saves until effect runs its course.

Example:
Kentorian Wasting Disease: Onset: 1d, DC:18, Dam: STA 2 damage, Repeat: 1d, Saves: 7

This disease is know to kill most people who contract it. Only those that have high stamina (16 or above) have been known to survive it without problems.

To address the note about about a cleric getting the ability to heal temporary ability damage, there are some discussions on that. So it should be coming in the final rules. And example on how I see it working would be as follows: (this is my view not Joseph's)

Wizard (STA 9) contracts the disease while fighting Orc's in the great swamp. After getting back to town he realizes he is sick after his first failed save. STA 7. The 1st level Cleric cannot cure disease, so he tries to heal the ability damage so they can continue on the quest. After two attempts, he does not succeed in rolling higher than and 18. Not wanting to accrue more negative penalties for spell casting (using current rules), the party tries to push on before the sickness gets worse. (the make Wizard wear a mask -1 spell checks).

After another day of adventuring, the Wizard fails the next save and drops to STA 5. This time the Cleric was successful twice in trying to restore ability scores and he goes back up to STA 7. So they party pushes on...

This cycle could continue every day either the disease runs its course. Basically, the Cleric is treating the symptoms and not the disease.

This could easily work with deadly venom. Onset time 1r, DC18, STA-1, Delay: 1r, Duration: 10r

If you are fighting a snake with that venom and you get bit twice, you would just make the duration = last bite, but up the DC by 1 for each bite.

This could make even weak carrion crawler poison interesting if you get bit enough times. Disease bearing rats would work well also.

Not really sold on anything, but I wanted to share some ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:32 pm 
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if the description is kept that short, it's fine with me! I just don't want lengthy poison chapters in the rulebook.

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Personally, I don't see the need for "poisons" in the rulebook at all. Examples of poisons in the monster descriptions and perhaps in a sample trap, sure. But rules for how one "must" format poisons, feh.


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:59 pm 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Personally, I don't see the need for "poisons" in the rulebook at all. Examples of poisons in the monster descriptions and perhaps in a sample trap, sure. But rules for how one "must" format poisons, feh.

*shrug* I had a need to do something and shared my thoughts the fact a few have tossed the idea back ad forth shows it will be needed by most I suspect.

"to make rule or not to make rule" that is the question Mr G must be asking himself ans he hurriedly writes up the final version I guess!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Ducaster wrote:
*shrug* I had a need to do something and shared my thoughts the fact a few have tossed the idea back ad forth shows it will be needed by most I suspect.

I just fear it leading to full page trap/poison statblocks as seen in 3e/4e. Diseases are little minigames in 4e. It makes sense for 4e, but it is not in the spirit of DCCRPG, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:54 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Ducaster wrote:
*shrug* I had a need to do something and shared my thoughts the fact a few have tossed the idea back ad forth shows it will be needed by most I suspect.

I just fear it leading to full page trap/poison statblocks as seen in 3e/4e. Diseases are little minigames in 4e. It makes sense for 4e, but it is not in the spirit of DCCRPG, I think.


+d16

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 Post subject: Re: Poisons & Diseases
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:52 pm 
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jmucchiello wrote:
I just fear it leading to full page trap/poison statblocks as seen in 3e/4e. Diseases are little minigames in 4e. It makes sense for 4e, but it is not in the spirit of DCCRPG, I think.


Good Lord! All I hope is that maybe a page or two total is spent on some poison disease guidelines: one per page.. ughhh! Keep it away! I wasn't that interested!

Your totally right if anything the free form nature of DCC is about role playing not rule playing! Gimme an example or two to point me in the right direction only, then let each GM get on with the real business of adventure design.....

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