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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:28 am 
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Thus, magic items alone (researching their history, dungeon delving for them, etc.) will be a potent source of adventure seeds. I like it. Really, this is a low-magic fantasy system despite the proportion of the rules devoted to the mechanics of magic and spell details.

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:53 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
Magic items are rare, unique, and "the" vs. "a". By that I mean that when you find "the" +1 longsword, you have found THE +1 longsword. There isn't such a thing as a "generic" +1 longsword. There may be a couple in the world but each has its own properties and history.

core rule quote


I am very glad to read this info. Thanks, Joseph, you set my mind at ease. The game is great so far, can't wait to get the full rules.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:42 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
The core rules do include more information on magic items. Including this part... :)


Sweet--will there be magic items in the modules released for Free RPG day? I'm already have three different groups lined up, ranging from totals newbies to veteran players, and I really want to put this game through it's paces...


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:16 pm 
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I see a kind of conflect here. while I do want magic items to be rare and powerful, I want the players in the campaign to get such items to add to the story. But at the same time, throwing in magic items, even if the fluff is that they are really rare, makes them not rare because all the players have at least one or two. But if they really are rare, they become somewhat pointless if players never get them or, over 7 levels they find "THE +1 longsowrd" and thats the totatlity of their magic, thats kind of boring. So the trick to me is including magic items for players to use but trying to keep the sense that those magic itesm are special. So, I had this idea for magic items in the this game:


Most enchanted items are only magical because they are enfused as such by powerful mages, worlocks, and worshipors of the dark void. Creating enchatnted items are just as dangerious, if not more so, then casting spells, and so when an item is made it is made because there is a need for it, not just to make some coin. While you might find a magic sword for sell, it is very rare to do so. It is also just as tough to sell an enchanted item as most shop owners in the world will not be able to offer even a 10th of the price that the item is worth.

These items are also often made of rare materials that help hold the enchantments that are placed on them (roll on exotic materials table) and, like normal spell casting, are associated with mecurial characteristics (roll on appropiate mecurial item tables). Often enchanted items are tuned to the alignment of their creator and will not function as well in the hands of those who's world view are apposed to the nature of the enchantment (roll on table enchanted item alignment). A shield enchanted by a lawful cleric to aid in protecting the faitful would not aid a neutral aligned character, and might even curse a chaotic soul that tries to wield the item.

Finally, enchanted items can be dangerious. Remember, these items are enchanted by a priest through prayer in the hope that the item will take on an aspect of his dieties power, as well as his will. A mage, calling on a dark fiend to infuse an item with both his power and a sacrafice of the mage's flesh and blood (and maybe even soul) become components of the item, defining it and shaping it. To use these items is to wiled the essence of the invoked diety or possible play a hand in the plot of cursed demon of the pit. To wield these items is allways, in at least a small way, to touch and connect with some greater power that is never fully understood. It attracts the attention of spirits that lurk in the realms beyond the viel, attention most would rather avoid.

So, have some tables to roll up random properties of magic items and I would say include an enchantment spell that is maybe a level 3 or 4 spell. The spell would require the expenditure of coin but not xp, and would have a chanch of failure. Low level success would only enchant an item of a period of time, and the nature of the enchantment would be somewaht random and unpredictible. Higher level checks would allow for more permanante and/or less random enchantment affects. Spell burn for creating magic items would be possible but would also be permanant as the mage or cleric imparts their life essence into the blade permanantly. A treasure reward could be finding a recipe that gives a bonus for creating a specific kind of enchanted item.

Those are the enchanted items. The other kind could be items of legend, items forged by the greater powers themselves and given to humans so that they may undertake great crusades to champion their cause. These items would be extreemly rare, and would be powerful enough to "ire" the gods.


This way you can have characters making magic items (I don't know if that is appendex N but it seems to happen in other fantasy stories, thinking specifically of the movie dragon slayer). And you can include a few magic items that will have the feel of being very special, without every one running around with +1 this and +3 that, and going to the store to buy more +2 flaming darts because they ran out. You could even get cool quests out of it. Say a wearewolf is running around terroizing a small villige every full moon. The party needs to hunt down and slay the wherewold but first, must follow up on a lead to find an old recipe needed to enchant a blade that will be strong enough to kill the wearewolf. After retriveing the recipe and other quests to get the special materials before the next full moon, it than falls to the priest or mage to properly enchant a weapon so that, for at least during the next full moon, can slay the wherewolf. failure means the creature slaughters dozen's of innocnet townsfolks on the next full moon. Success means the pcs now get to go and confront the wherewolf and try to slay him with the enchanted weapon. Perhaps the blad is really cool, but the enchantment has a special condition which is it is only magical when it is bathed in the light of the full moon.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Magic items will be rare and players SHOULD not want them. They are DANGEROUS. Corruption effects from magic items should be just as inhuman as they are for wizards.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:36 pm 
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I'm playtesting DCC with 5 players. They're on a quest to purge the evil in the Caves of the Black Scepter, a dungeon a wizard built for himself and his wife after having been corrupted by the dark energy of the artifact: the Black Scepter. The PCs will retrieve it in the end, but it's not like something they can "use". There's no rules and stats for it, there's just story and mistery. If the Wizard is determined to use it, i will think of something. This could be a nice hook for future adventuring!

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:07 pm 
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I think what is important is not the magic items are uniformly dangerous or never part of the game, but rather that they have stories. The effect of the weapon should tie into the story. So, instead of a +1 longsword, it may be The Golden Blade of Garimor still infused with the noble energy of the legendary paladin. It grants a +1 to hit and to damage to any lawful bearer. It's magic refuses to function for neutral characters and its touch does 1d4 damage per round to any chaotic creature (which is also bonus damage for a hit in combat). Any bearer who flees from fighting chaotic foes suffers a d4 luck penalty immediately. That sort of flavor is enough to keep things interesting, but doesn't need to overwhelm the campaign. Locating and seeking out magical items can still remain a party goal.

I have no interest in seeing magic item creation, modification, purchasing or sales addressed in the base rules. In fact, I like the Basic D&D rules that give experience for "non-magical treasures and for defeating monsters". The recovery of a magical item, when found, is reward enough.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:17 am 
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meinvt wrote:
I think what is important is not the magic items are uniformly dangerous or never part of the game, but rather that they have stories. The effect of the weapon should tie into the story. So, instead of a +1 longsword, it may be The Golden Blade of Garimor still infused with the noble energy of the legendary paladin. It grants a +1 to hit and to damage to any lawful bearer. It's magic refuses to function for neutral characters and its touch does 1d4 damage per round to any chaotic creature (which is also bonus damage for a hit in combat). Any bearer who flees from fighting chaotic foes suffers a d4 luck penalty immediately. That sort of flavor is enough to keep things interesting, but doesn't need to overwhelm the campaign. Locating and seeking out magical items can still remain a party goal.

I have no interest in seeing magic item creation, modification, purchasing or sales addressed in the base rules. In fact, I like the Basic D&D rules that give experience for "non-magical treasures and for defeating monsters". The recovery of a magical item, when found, is reward enough.


This is how I would like to see magic items as well. Having such background stories helps to tie pcs more into the campaing world by way of just understanding how their magic items work.

While im ok with no magic stuff in basic, I do hope there is an enchantment spell so players can attempt to make their own magic items.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:40 am 
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Ok having read thru this thread I think we're generally agreed that the "Golf bag of weapons" that somehow got into my early days of D&D is not gonna happen here. That's good, but what I am not seeing yet is this scenario:

In many fantasy adventures the hero STARTS with a magic item and he/she uses it throughout their career. Usually with very limited effects early on but later they get it to do amazing things.

In my D&D games I tried to simulate this with the idea that
(A) Nobody could have more than one permanent magic item on them at any one time (The power field of the greater suppressed the lesser)
(B) Magic items powers scaled with the level of the wielder usually upto (guess what) 10th level

Given Mr Goodmans tantalizing hint about greater items bringing down the Ire of the Over Gods. I think this could work well here. With a character eventually casting his "sword of shadows" away before its growing power destroyed him and his friend/village/country/world

So each permanent magic item needs a unique condition to work (Correct align / minimum level etc etc) then scales with the wielder until it gets to the point they either retire or cast it away. Even Elric retired Stormbringer for a while and when it came back well that was the endgame for that fantasy series.

But while they are +1 & +2's we can have a bunch of fun with them! Even though according to legends they could do so much more than our guys can coax out of them...

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:06 pm 
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I have said in other threads, magic items should have mechanics just like Artifacts in 1e AD&D. The more powerful the magic item, the more foul the side effect of using it should be.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:13 pm 
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This is where I have issue with Appendix N, in place of just Sword & Sorcery, when we justify Elves and Dwarves because of Tolkien, we can't just dismiss mundane magic items like the Cloaks of Elvenkind, Brooches of Defence, Sting and that light-thing.

Believe you-me, I want magic items to be dangerous and scary too.

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:07 am 
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Put me in the camp with moes1980, meinvt, & Ducaster. +d1000 :mrgreen:

What about the Elven rope & cloaks, weapons & armor, or Treebeard's potion of growth... or those crystal spheres that kept causing so much mischief in the Lord of the Rings? How do Dwarves make magic weapons since they have no spell casters?

I thank Mr. Goodman for giving us some idea about how magic items should be worked into the game... and I'll portray this in the beta test, but that's as far as it goes. The "Ire of the Gods" approach makes sense if you are talking about "God forged" magic items like Townsaver, or Farslayer, etc. Like others, I think that there should be some kind of distinction between items with enough power to slay Gods, and the more pedantic mortal version of magic items. I'm not arguing for "Harry Potter" where magic items are ubiquitous and taken for granted, but this "using magic items angers the Gods" system is just as extreme and therefore undesirable.

I think the brilliance of the DCC RPG system is that it is, in essence "open grid," to borrow a term from the computing world. The MDoA system, and the return to role-play based solutions returns creativity to the gaming experience that has been missing for a long time. This system doesn't require you to buy 5 or 6 monster manuals with exacting details of everything, it gives the DM permission to make up what ever monster is required for the story. It doesn't slow down combat with delicately balanced sets of combat maneuvers, fighters can get creative and use the environment and their wits as force multipliers. If you want scary traps; spend some time reading the Grimtooth collection and then let your imagination run wild. Why should Taking the "magic items are scary and will ruin your life so don't use them" approach seems overly restrictive and therefore at odds with the rest of the game design. If the final version of the game holds to this structure for magic items then I'll be house ruling it into the rubbish can along with; races as classes, and the alignment system.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:16 am 
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reverenddak wrote:
This is where I have issue with Appendix N, in place of just Sword & Sorcery, when we justify Elves and Dwarves because of Tolkien, we can't just dismiss mundane magic items like the Cloaks of Elvenkind, Brooches of Defence, Sting and that light-thing.

Believe you-me, I want magic items to be dangerous and scary too.


The thing is with magic items and gear in general is that everyone loves havin' cool stuff. I respectfully disagree calling any of the above as Mundane magic items mind you. Please see my original point above. The hero's got a hold of these comparativly early in thier adventures and kept them. They did not continuously acquire new and better ones as they (presumably) went up in levels.

There IS a place for the "Magic Shoppe" and the "Mundane" Magic item in any FRPG I think but the danger of cheapening the really good items by a free for all in whats available at the little shoppe of Horrors. I think the Mercurial magic rule and plain old human greed and gullability is where I'm going to play test an idea this has given me.

I think I will allow folks to buy potions and one shot items over the counter BUT mixed in with these "Mundane" items will be a LOT of fakes or defective stuff ("...No sir we do NOT allow the use of spells in our shop. No detecting magic in here please") But Alladins lamp might lie in there as well.

Given the aweful price a Wiz will have paid to get to the point where they could enspell even the most basic item I kinda doubt they'd part with it for ANY money during their liftime. So it follows that many magic items offered for sale will be either
(A) "Hot" and with there previous owner coming after them (Great hackneyed plot hook though that be!)
(B) Broken but retaining a fragment of power that might be usful still once or twice
(C) Cursed so that only the Wiz that made it or perhaps there:- Apprentice/follower/child/fellow cultist etc can use it without dire consequences

If folks wanna go browse the Bazarre of the Bazarre with that in mind I'd let 'em!!

Potions on the other hand I have little problem with. The Alchemist is not necessarily a Wizard in many works of fiction. Lord only knows what happens when you mix magical creature essences with each other along with mundane chemicals! Sometimes you will redoubtably make a discovery, though many times you'll blow off the roof as well methinks (Channeling Terry Pratchett here of course!)

Still once a formula was known then despite the danger hunting Dragons/Dryads/Trolls (fill-in-the-blank monster) will become lucrative for sombody and when they DO get a supply of Troll blood there will be a lot of healing potions for sale all of a sudden somewhere! (If only to pay for the day care of the crippled survivors of the hunting party!)

So after looking this thread over I have a definite idea where I want to start off my magical item house rules!

Some potions for sale occasionally. Some non magic high quality gear (no I am not gonna call them "Masterwork") for sale here and there. And once in a while a "Magic shoppe of horrors" for the brave or silly to browse thru as well. But I think the players in my DCC playtest games are most likely to find a magic item or two that slowly reveals its potential to them over time.

God I love forums they give ya so many ideas cheers all of you!

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:27 pm 
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I like everything in the post above. That's how I was going to run the game anyway.
At the end of the funnel adventure, the main "usable" treasure the PCs found were 2 healing potions. Healing potions that heal 1d6+1 HP (they don't know that - they will know after having drunk the first one). I specified clearly that those were not "D&D" potions. These were magical potions of high value. The effect might seem little, but they already got detached from the standard 3E habit of freaking out at half HP, because they felt that they were either DEAD/NOT DEAD. At 2 HP total, there are few grey areas. So I feel that, since at level 1 they won't have many more HPs (maybe the dwarf will barely reach double digits..), they will highly value those two little "lifesavers".

I think I will give out at least one magical item per adventure, but i won't follow 3E habits. Instead of a +1 dagger, i will give a dagger that gives +1 to spellchecks. Instead of a +1 sword, a sabre that uses 1d24 to attack but cannot crit. They have to feel special and always raise some eyebrows in stupor.

For more powerful magic Items, I think there will be consequences for their use.
(For example a greatsword that does 1d5+5 damage instead of 1d10, but steals 1hp from the user per round)
Those items have to go from "special" to "creepy", and "even creepier". I want PCs to feel corrupted and like they've done something wrong, regretting using those magic items every time they do so but still going back to using them sometimes, when they have no other choice.

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:40 pm 
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I'll admit that I don't get that all magic items need to be creepy, even if powerful. Of course, my influence is more from say Tolkien, where the elven light was not only highly useful and powerful, but also a source of resisting the corruption. Likewise blades like Sting.

In general I want my players to seek wealth and magic, and I don't want to then turn around and make them into fools for doing so. I'm okay with the very occasional cursed item, and also okay with some items being like AD&D artifacts with both strengths and also corrupting elements. But, I also want there to be the story equivalent of the elven cloak in the game. Something highly useful and special, but also just there and okay that it becomes mostly background much of the time.

I'm strongly considering tying the bonuses for magic items to character level. As in, if you are Warrior this blade lets you attack as though a Warrior two levels higher than you. If you are not a Warrior you may attack as a Warrior of your level. Likewise a magic wand could add to Caster Level, etc. A bit more thematic than a typical +1 or +2.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Tortog wrote:
How do Dwarves make magic weapons since they have no spell casters?

Oh, they have their secrets, they do. Secrets deep, deep in the Aereth. There's an adventure right over here that may reveal some of them to you -- but you may not be the same once you come out the other side. What say you...? :twisted:

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Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:04 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
Oh, they have their secrets, they do. Secrets deep, deep in the Aereth. There's an adventure right over here that may reveal some of them to you -- but you may not be the same once you come out the other side. What say you...? :twisted:


As good a solution as any, and the one I was going to take for my Beta Campaign test... though I was going to take things a bit further. Since the "flavor" of the game says magic items are rare, scary, and difficult to make: I decided that only Elven Artisans & Dwarven Blacksmiths have the knowledge to create them. Human understanding of magic hasn't progressed far enough. For Humans, the most likely way to gain a magic item is through a Patron. Please your master (wizard or cleric) impressively and you may be rewarded... irritate them and the item will fail at the least opportune moment... :twisted:

Elves are a society of natural wizards, so it makes sense that even the most mundane of their items would have "magical" properties: cloaks, boots, rope, etc. They would also have the knowledge to make mighty weapons & armors and (like Dwarves) may devote centuries to make even one item...

Dwarves on the other hand, are too practical and pragmatic to waste time with magic items that don't enhance fighting or crafting prowess... and they are more than willing to sell the weapons and armor to most anyone who can fork over enough platinum pieces.

To my mind this approach has a better chance of acceptance and adds more interest to the Non-Humans and adds more incentives to dig deep into the old crypts of forgotten times. Though if items are kept as rare and unique as some on this thread would like to see; I think it might lead to player conflicts over who gets them. Conflict between players= interfering with the story= :(

All that having been said; the idea that simply possessing a magic item may be the ecumenical equivalent of putting a "kick me" sign on the back of your characters soul... is just too far over the top for me, so I'm not using it. After all... it's not in the beta rules... so I don't have to acknowledge it's existence. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Yawn late and night here in GA and I got an Idea... Might be good might be a pain in Ass tell me what you think of this thing I am gonna inflict upon my players soon.

The Experiment Mini adventurette
Somehow the party have drawn the attention of Zathabar Secundus a noted Mage living some days journey to the north west of their current location.
He needs a doughty warrior and ideally a few others to test something for him...

Zathabar Has discovered and partly translated an ancient scroll detailing the process of creating a magical blade. Naturelly he is keen to see how his new creation performs in the field as it were, but he is unsure if he has the dwemor cast aright. The process is long and painful for him so he is reluctant to do it again until he has a more detailed idea of how the newly created "NightsClaw" (as he has named it) performs so he is going to magnificently "give" it to a budding hero and study the Hero's progress with it from afar by scrying magic's!

NightsClaw Bastard Sword (2d4 Base Damage) Needs a Str of 13+ to use one handedly

Automatic Beneficial effects
("Powers" that the sword always has on and functioning that affect itself and or the wielder in a generally usful way)
+2 to hit & Damage
Self cleaning & repairing
Adds a +1 to MDoA rolls
Wielder is viewed as the least threat of all potential targets by all undead in the area so they will be attacked last where possible.

Activational powers
(A set of powers the Wielder may call forth from the item at will a limited amount of times per day)
L1 Protection from Evil (defined as Undead and Lawfully aligned creatures and all that wish the wielder harm) The sword can cast this spell once per day at a DC of 11 + the wielders level. With no chance of failure
L2 ?
L3 ? Deliberate Animate dead maybe?
L4 ?
L5 ?

One New effect will come online with each level the Wielder gains, to be determined as the mood takes me but hopefully reflecting HOW they role play having the weapon.

Side effects
(These should be neither wholly bad - nor yet good. Or a bit of both maybe)
The wielder becomes Light sensitive. -1 on all rolls under bright light, but can see like a cat at night instead.
The wielders flesh seems always cold to another touch however this does not have any other effect.

Unpleasantness....
(Oh dear...)
* Creatures slain by Nightclaw have a small chance of reanimating as free willed undead! Usually Ghouls for human sized creatures. This occurs 1d8 days after they are slain about 20% of the time.

Each time this occurs the bearer of the sword attracts the attention of a Good and Lawful angel who HIGHLY DISAPPROVES! This "Angel" may seek out the Wielder and demand they undo the harm they wrought in some way. Repeat offenses will draw a greater judgment! At first it will likely send signs and portents I surmise before making a personal appearance.

If the wielder prays over the corpses of those they have slain for 1 minute after the battle this chance drops to 5% The Angel will instruct the wielder to do this after the first incidence. (That a Minute EACH BTW)

* The Sword is bonded the bearer after he makes his her first Kill with it. Damaging it causes a similar amount of damage to occur to them and a 10% splash of magical damage to everyone in a 1d6 x 10' Radius. If they lose or drop it they sicken and lose 1 hp per day that can only be cured by magic and may draw the wrath of the Kindly wizard that gave it them. See below.

* Zathabar is regularly scrying upon the sword and magically getting a report on its abilities and progress. He will actually be quite pleased that it makes undead! Being a Necromancer himself an' all! The Angel will bother him and it MAY happen that he and the Angel will battle at some point in the future to decide the Sword and its wielders final fate..? (late game adventure hook)

* If the Wielder tries to sell lose or otherwise get rid of the Blade Ol' Zath is sure to send a conjured imp to go retrieve it and drop it back by the characters side while they sleep... This might also make for a great mini encounter as well.


So in keeping I hope with Appendix N traditions the newly minted first level warrior is gonna be give a Heroic blade by a the nice wizard to help him as he carves out his fortune etc etc only to discover that all is not entirely well as they progress in their Heroic lifestyle.

As I said this is a hasty proto Idea I just came up with. I think it may fly and I think it at least touches on many of the points previously discussed here.

Opinions as ever welcomed.

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:21 pm 
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To Ducaster--> I think you do an admirable job of encapsulating the mechanic presented in a viable story context, but it still means that all magic items are cursed. Looking at it as a Player I think it would be fun once or twice, but eventually I'm gonna want a magic item that works properly. As a DM I think that for 1 character it could be a wonderful source of role play, and general story goodness. Multiplied by 4+ PC's things could get pretty wild. Especially trying to come up with enough items for everyone. One of the things I've learned in the last 20 years is that nobody whines like the one player at the table without any items... :roll: Of course, if I were the player with the sword, the first time the Angel showed up...

" Um, excuse me Mr. Angel, Sir, but, um, I'd be more than happy to go smite the Naughty Wizard & bring you his head if you'll agree to fix the sword for me..."

Though I wouldn't know about the Scrying so that could make things interesting, but what if that isn't part of the DM's plan for the story... it could throw a wrench into the works. [x the # of players]

in general---> The only way I can really accept the idea that Luck penalties-(or other punishments) are part of owning a magic weapon is with the idea that they all have some kind of "shadowy past" that must be survived and overcome. Kind of like surviving the challenge of the Character Funnel. It still seems over the top to me as a regular feature, considering magic items have become so prevalent in modern D&D... most players expect to have a few cool toys over the course of the character's "life." And the game is lethal enough already... this is just more salt for the wounded.

I think an "easy to break" approach might work better as an over all mechanic for items.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:01 pm 
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My players are going to banish a demon which otherwise would run amok through the city, he's the Grey Render, basically the D&D creature we all know made unique. And right out of the mutliverse depths. :twisted:

RP element : The weapon dealing the last blow to the fiend will absorb part of his soul: the metal will become darker, and in its reflections sometimes you can see the terrifying face of the demon. Wounds from that weapon seem to gape more than normal, and bleed more.

Actual Game mechanic : +1 to attack rolls.

Combining RP & mechanic elements : the weapon of dark steel will be harder, its edge always keen and straight. The character wielding it seems a bit too eager to inflict pain on his foes and bathe in their blood as the blade slashes through them.

I think this makes for an interesting magical treasure for a 1st level DCCRPG party (which should have different expectations from the typical 3.x party), without giving out too much power, adding too much complexity and still giving the feel that maybe they shouldn't use that sword at all. Besides, there's always space for the dm to attach to that weapon an adventure hook.

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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:35 pm 
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moes1980 wrote:
Low level success would only enchant an item of a period of time, and the nature of the enchantment would be somewaht random and unpredictible.

I think that this presents a really interesting mechanic: Enchanting high-quality permanent magic items is hard, and using lower-quality items is dangerous. Most of the magic items that would be found in a treasure hoard would probably be low quality. So each low-quality item (including weapons and armor) has an effect table, just like spells. A high "item check" roll (INT?) would produce a superior effect, but a low roll would have consequences, including non-function, malfunction, and/or destruction of the item. This latter mechanism would be a great way to limit the accumulation of magic items in a campaign, because they are constantly getting burned up.


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Tortog wrote:
To Ducaster--> I think you do an admirable job of encapsulating the mechanic presented in a viable story context, but it still means that all magic items are cursed. Looking at it as a Player I think it would be fun once or twice, but eventually I'm gonna want a magic item that works properly.


Thank you for the compliment first of all. I try my best, I suspect we all do. Though it is slightly off topic here I did come up with another tangent for more minor Magic items that might work in tandem with the "Powerful but flawed" major items that Mr G and team have already hinted at.

The problem is that I have is with the idea that a Wizard would "waste" his or her (or its) time making quite minor mundane Plus items. I mean a +1 dagger? Nice to have but given the implied investment in terms of spellburn time and effort it seems out of place somehow??

But how about if a spell was devised to grant minor enhancments fairly easily. I am thinking by way of example how the Bless spell in the Beta works on items here as inspiration

Quote:
Spell Name Virtue (reversible to Blighting)
Level 2nd Ritual Arcane
Range Touch
Duration Varies see below
Casting Time 1 turn or more
Save Not Applicable
Manifestation (1) Casters hands glow with light that imbues the touched item.
(2) A Gentle wind passes by and faint music is heard for a moment.
(3) The Item shudders and spins mid air near the caster for one round.
(4) The temperature rapidly changes in the area and then stabilizes

General The caster puts a magical charge in an item that effects it in some way. A +1 can be exchanged for another non dice ability that the Caster specifies to the DM. For example an item can be self cleaning/sharpening etc. If the item already has a fixed spell focus in it then it could be recharged to some degree by this spell in lieu of a fresh ability being added to it.

1-12 A minor temporary charge is place in the item, It will add a +1 (-1 if reversed) to one action that is associated with it. This modifier lasts 2d6 rounds after it is first activated.
13-14 A modest charge is imbued. As above but the effect is good for one day after first use
15-18 A moderate charge is used and the Bonus is +2 OR if the item has multiple functions +1 on two of them. Duration as above
19-20 Major Arcane charge. +3 (-3 reversed) is imbued in the item. If it has multi functions then the bonuses can be split among them as the spell caster desires. Duration as above but the wilder or caster may deliberately withhold discharging the Virtue if they desire to save it for another more important event.
21-24 Minor Power infusion. The item either takes on a +5 temporary charge (Duration as above) or gains a permanent +1. If the permanent option is selected the caster remains in casting trance for One HOUR instead of one turn. Interruption blows the spell (though no ill effect happens to the caster)
25-28 Moderate Power infusion. The item gets +7 Temporary charges or gains a Permanent +2, casting time is adjusted as above but the duration is extended to TWO hours.
29-30 Medium Power infusion. Charges go upto +9. Or a Permanent +3 can be achieved, Casting time goes up to Three hours and if the caster is disturbed they suffer corruption
31-32 Major Power infusion Charges +11 or a Permanent +4 can be infused. Casting time is adjusted as above but for 4 hours etc.
33 plus Ultimate Power infusion. Charges +15 or a Permanent +5 with commensurate change to casting time. If disturbed the Caster takes 5d4 damage and a corruption effect if they survive....



Would something like this work as a justification for "minor Magic items" Naturally the spells casting level can go up or down or extra factors (like costly ingredients) can be swapped in or out. But is the principle sound or overpowered or under powered?

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: no magic items--shouldn't those be playtested?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Ducaster wrote:
The problem is that I have is with the idea that a Wizard would "waste" his or her (or its) time making quite minor mundane Plus items. I mean a +1 dagger? Nice to have but given the implied investment in terms of spellburn time and effort it seems out of place somehow??


Given the mechanics for making magic items in D&D 3.5... I totally agree with you. As a player, I have a reputation for abusing DM's with the item creation rules. :twisted: Three of my favorite rules being the "30% reduction in base price of item if it is made Race & Class specific,DMG 1, p.282; the Exceptional Artisan Feat (*) [-25% on base price for a type of item creation; wands, potions, etc],Ebberon source book, p.52; & -10% base cost from item requiring skill use to function,DMG 1, p.282." And never ever pass up an opportunity to create items that boost skill checks! :mrgreen:

Quote:
But how about if a spell was devised to grant minor enhancments fairly easily. I am thinking by way of example how the Bless spell in the Beta works on items here as inspiration

Quote:
1-12 A minor temporary charge is place in the item, It will add a +1 (-1 if reversed) to one action that is associated with it. This modifier lasts 2d6 rounds after it is first activated.



Would something like this work as a justification for "minor Magic items" Naturally the spells casting level can go up or down or extra factors (like costly ingredients) can be swapped in or out. But is the principle sound or overpowered or under powered?


I think it's a great idea. I've been working on something similar to "Magic Weapon" as a 1st level spell for Clerics... so 2nd level for Wizards seems good to me. No need for EXP costs, spellburn, or additional costly materials, as all of these rules would likely re-instate the problems you were trying to avoid in the first place. The added chances of corruption & the fact that Dispel Magic could negate the weapons abilities are a good enough balance. IMO

On a technical note: the DCC mechanics say a 2nd level spell has a DC of 14 for success so you might want to change things a bit... Here's how I'd do it:

1: Critical failure! item functions similar to your design, but caries baleful and malevolent curses... starting w/ the inability to let go of the Item. :twisted:
2-4: Spell fails and materials lost... Wizard must start over from scratch.
5-13: Spell fails.
... then start in with the base level benefits.

To abk108---> Nice spin on things! I think I might have to give that a try...

Forgot to add---> In my campaign the characters have been thrown by Fate into something much larger than they ever wanted to be; so the Gods then have a Duty to provide some way to help them out on occasion, like the in the story of Perseus. So, one of the treasures I added to the 0-level adventure is basically an ever-lasting rations box from the magic item compendium, but changed a bit to the following:

"Blessedly Bountiful Bento Box" = This plain looking hardwood box is a gift from Olidryra the Goddess of Halflings. It is slightly bigger than a loaf of bread and anytime a hungry person reaches into the box they can pull out (1) meal of rations equivalent to "granola bars & a flagon of fresh spring water." Any attempt to sell or profit from the item immediately breaks the item forever. It turns the box into an old, dry rotted box suitable only for kindling.


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