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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:27 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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Spell Duels.

I've always thought that one of the things that RPGs have never gotten right is the clash of magic users. Fantasy fiction is full of Wizards locking horns with each other as their more mundane allies duking it out. I'm really excited to see how the system actually plays out.

Having the party's magical support team up to keep the BBEG Necromancer from bringing his full eldritch might to bear while the fighters slog through the hordes of minions and the thief tries to maneuver in for the cheap shot on the BBEG seems like it really captures the flavor of the kind of stories that inspire fantasy RPGs.

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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:41 am
Posts: 70
Mighty Deeds of Arms.

Lucky thieves.

The art.

Did I mention Mighty Deeds of Arms?


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:52 am 
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Absolutely the artwork, a few items stand out, mostly because they're pictures I remember so well from my first experiences of the game!
* the bound prisoner on the alignment page 17 straight out of my first copy of basic!
* P19, I'm fairly sure the same picture is in basic somewhere...
* P40 the ressurection, 1st edition players handbook somewhere?
* P49, I see Emikrol the chaotic has a pursuer, although given what he's summoned, I'm not sure this one is an improvement!
* P91's wizardess, Is that the cover of the book of marvelous magic, or some other Caldwell piece?

I _demand_ somebody re-do Morgan Ironwolf and he skinhugging chainmail from the Basic book, pretty please!


Loving the "Abandon All Presumption", that's just beautifully written, quite frankly you had me as soon as I saw read that, and saw the bound prisoner image!


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:04 am 
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Ooops, sorry, double tap!


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:09 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:41 am
Posts: 59
rabindranath72 wrote:
Perhaps I am the only one...by I absolutely don't like Peter Mullen's art. I know it's going to stay there, and I am usually not a sucker for such things, but it really rubs me the wrong way... :(


Wow! I'm surprised. I love Mullen's stuff. First time I saw it was on S&W, but since then it has just impressed me more and more.

Just curious, do you like Otus at all? 'cause Mullen has kind of an Otusian style.

Btw, for me it has to be pg 4. The Proclamation Rawks! Sets the entire tone for the game.


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:30 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:32 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Louisville, KY
Dreamslinger wrote:
Spell Duels.


Yes!


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
Sizzaxe wrote:
Just curious, do you like Otus at all? 'cause Mullen has kind of an Otusian style.

Erol does it differently. There are some Erol illos I don't like but there are others that I do. I haven't found a Mullen pic I like. Maybe you could point out a Erol illo that you think is most like Mullen or vice versa for comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:47 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Posts: 215
I just read this on page 19;

"What man calls free will is but the options remaining after destiny and the gods have made their plays."

Well played Mr Goodman. Worthy of the Romantic poets and should be on a T-shirt!

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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:01 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:51 am
Posts: 40
Esoteric observation:

This is the first ruleset that I have read that seems as if it would be equally suited for playing in a Tumithak-style setting and, say, The Abominations of Yondo...

To understate it horribly, that's a very neat trick.

Another thing:

What is shocking to me is how many "standard tropes" of D&D, as it has evolved have invisibly become "ironclad laws" of tabletop gaming - balance, rolling up high-level characters, no mixing of levels, no racial superiority, etc.

So eager to discover the fun to be had without those former innovations that have become (for me -I'm not judging them universally) latter day albatrosses.


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:09 am
Posts: 36
Well, the things I like about it ...
First the return of cartoons akin to the old 1e DMG.

Second... Well, it feels kind of like it's the result of Tunnels and Trolls and HackMaster 4th Edition both going out for a night on the town with Dungeons and Dragons 3.0, getting her (no way d20 3.0 wasn't a chick... 3.5 might be male, and 4e is pretty androgynous... :D) plastered, then, when she calls up four months later not remembering which one got her pregnant and both (being gentlemen - crude, but gentlemen) deciding they should share raising the child.
It seems to show strongly of the mother, but her worst traits are subsumed by the better traits of T&T with just a touch of the "Garyspeak" and general attitude (toned down SLIGHTLY) of HM4thEd.

If I weren't already hooked/sold on HackMaster Basic, this would probably become my game of choice very quickly...

And... having just read them this morning, the Spell Duels rules look great; will have to see them in practice to KNOW, but I think it might be the best "new" element in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 9:46 pm
Posts: 123
The whole book had a great first impression on me but the thing that really, REALLY jumped out at me was SPELL DUALING!!!!! At least, a mechanic that actually allows for spell on spell wizard dualing eath shaking aswomness that can be carried out while the rest of the players are in regular combat initiative. Something that should have been in DnD since day one.


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 9:46 pm
Posts: 123
CEBrown wrote:
Well, the things I like about it ...
First the return of cartoons akin to the old 1e DMG.

Second... Well, it feels kind of like it's the result of Tunnels and Trolls and HackMaster 4th Edition both going out for a night on the town with Dungeons and Dragons 3.0, getting her (no way d20 3.0 wasn't a chick... 3.5 might be male, and 4e is pretty androgynous... :D) plastered, then, when she calls up four months later not remembering which one got her pregnant and both (being gentlemen - crude, but gentlemen) deciding they should share raising the child.
It seems to show strongly of the mother, but her worst traits are subsumed by the better traits of T&T with just a touch of the "Garyspeak" and general attitude (toned down SLIGHTLY) of HM4thEd.

If I weren't already hooked/sold on HackMaster Basic, this would probably become my game of choice very quickly...

And... having just read them this morning, the Spell Duels rules look great; will have to see them in practice to KNOW, but I think it might be the best "new" element in the game.



That is a cool driscription of the game! I allways thougt HMB would be by go to game but this game has put me on the fence as to which I want to run a full campaing out of (although, it seems like my players like DCCRPG more than hackmaster so I might not have much say in the matter any way). But each game has a very different feel, but I love the feel of each so its tough. (just hope the hacklopedia of beasts that was suposed to come out 4+ months ago will finally ship next month and the pages better not fall out of it like they did with A&8's)

As for the spell duals, it cam up in play test (sort of). I created a dryad monster that had charmed a bugbear and was using him and his goblin horde to protect her tree. At the end of the adventure the players had to fight the charmed bugbear and the dryad which could cast word of command, starting a +4 bonus to casting roll and getting a -1 with each casting attempt. Spell dual ensued between cleric and dryad while the fighter and elf battled the bugbear. The cleric tried twice to use holy sanctuary to protect her from the word of command. She fell to its effect for d6 turns and killed the elf, which was funny, because she had brought the elf up from death twice this battle. eventually they dual casted and the cleric got charmed for d6 turns but got her holy sanctuary up for a number of rounds (10 mininuets per round). this was funny because while the cleric was attacking the fighter, the fighter could not attack her back, nore could the dryad go and attack the cleric. (I was expecting it to end with the cleric and dryad being the only two left standing but neither being able to harm the other). The cleric went to attack the fighter and asked if she could do subdual damage since she had her holy sanctuary up and I said sure and so the fighter was able to wheather the blow. Finally, the fighter killed the bugbear, then charged and killed the dryad with one blow (the dryad had weak hps).

It was a vey easy mechanic to use and made for a great encounter. (oh, and when they rolled the elf over he was dead. Poor elf....He had developed bleeding sores as he made dangerious promises to a foul demon in an attempt to cast a sleep spell during the encounter. The spell failed and it appears that the demon that he bartered with claimed his soul as a reward much, much sooner than he thougt.)


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:12 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:44 am
Posts: 319
I love the fact that this system returns the authority of Story over Rules.

I love the return to a simplified skill system, though I would like to see some method for characters to learn skills outside their class or occupation. If I'm playing a turnip farmer who is now a wizard... the skill set of the wizard constrains the range of useful magic items he can create to: almost nil. Somehow I just don't see enemies fearing a +3 garden shovel. :D Though a "Pitch Fork of Mighty Throwing" could be interesting... :mrgreen:

I love the 0level character funnel! It has allowed me to expand on the possible ways of starting things off. I re-wrote the player intro to the "Portal under the stars" module for the Campaign test I'm starting and will post it with my game report. My only critique would be that the number of occupations should be increased for Humans and Non-Humans

BTW- Using the app. made by tovokas (http://jmarrdesign.com/dcc) I made a sweet deck of 72 laminated 0level PCs so that the players can just-grab-and-go.

I love the Patron system of magic for clerics and the supporting mechanics. The idea of Patrons for wizards is growing on me (like the moss on my roof :mrgreen: ) In my Aereth campaign setting there are so many Gods available, that I decided to put some of them in charge of regulating "lawful" or "white" wizardry. Thus were born the Gods of Magic: Amun-Tor, Azuarr, Delvyr, Shul; & the 5 Elemental Lords, Fenwar [fire], Madrah [aereth :D ], Thalass [water], Variag [air], & Denithae [spirit: Queen of the Fairies]. Between them they can give access to any spell on the wizard list, but require the wizard to serve the Patrons agenda. As long as the wizard is obeying the rules of society and not causing mayhem... they get left alone. These Patrons [and their clerics] are in charge of enforcement and are angered by wizards who make deals with the Patrons on the "dark powers" list, or use their magic to undermine society.

I LOVE the fact that I now have the authority to write monsters that match the models I can sculpt... :twisted:

I love the mercurial magic, manifestation effects and the spell tables; though I'd make it so the wizard can choose any of the results on the table that are at his check level or less. i.e. If a wizard rolls a 32+ then they can choose any level of effect they need for the moment.

I love the idea of spell duels, though I'm still at a loss as to how to express one in story terms. Wonderfully random magic means that the caster may not even know the final outcome of the spell, so without some personal understanding of the casting wizard, the defender will never be able to know how to block spells properly. [from a story point of view]

***************

Any criticisms of the system that I have are easily rectified without drastic changes:

For White Wizards in good standing the chance of corruption is a function of spell failure. (entry on the fumble chart) Black wizards, however, roll for corruption every time they roll a 1 on a spell check as normal... after all they are playing with seriously nasty magics. :twisted:

Elves should receive some sort of racial bonus with bows... there is plenty of material, both in literature & folklore to support this idea... and at least 1 of the Elf entries on the Occupation Table (forester) should start with a long bow or short bow depending on type of elf.

I'd swap the Halfling ability with 2-weap. style for a similar ability with thrown weapons and slings. With these weapons they would always be considered as Agility 16, and damage is 1 dice larger than normal. {1d4 -> 1d6, etc.} Alternately a Halflings luck bonus could always be applied to slings and thrown items, even if negative... because sometimes even Hobbits are born cross-eyed :lol:

For folks who like fighting with 2-weap. style... bring back the Ranger class...

I could go with the idea of Races as Classes if there were more races available. Bring back the Gnome, Half-Elf, & Half-Orc; and gave each a +1 stat bonus to the stat that defines their race.
Elves +1 Agility
Dwarves +1 Stamina
Gnome [either:+1Personality or +1 Intelligence; players choice]
Halfling (+1 to: 1. Agility; 2. Personality; 3. Stamina; roll 1d3)
Half-Orc +1 Strength
Half-Elves don't get stat bonus, but gain infra-vision, +1 on listen checks and saves vs. sleep + the Human man ability to take a class.

In this set-up, Humans would be allowed to take a total number of classes = Int bonus; minimum of 1. When "switching careers" they would no longer be able to gain levels in previous classes, but would retain abilities and skills already gained before the switch. Sound familiar ;)

but statements like this:

"What man calls free will is but the options remaining after destiny and the gods have made their plays."

And others like it through the text, are just too fatalistic for my tastes. I don't even believe this to be true in real life... so it is understandable that I'd be uncomfortable with it in a game environment. So after the beta test I'll be re-tooling for a more AD&D, 2ed AD&D flavor... I'll be able to continue using more of the supplemental materials that I already posses, and will (IMO) appeal to a wider audience.

To each their own... :D

============

PS - Cult; (kult) n., 1 a) a system of religious worship and ritual b) a quasi-religious group, often living in a colony with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices, or beliefs. 2. a) devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for a person, principle, or lifestyle, especially when regarded as a fad [the cult of nudism] b) the object of said attachment. 3. a group of followers; sect.
-Pg. 337, Webster's New World Dictionary
3rd college edition

By definition 2a, many of us would be considered "D&D cultists"... :shock: so I'm more than willing to give Ol' Squid-face his/its sect of followers. Taking the rituals of any religious (or quasi-religious) group out of context will make them seem strange or unnatural... :D


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:50 am
Posts: 96
There are several things I like off the bat:

1 the art
2 a unique feel to each class
3 the luck stat with a different use of it by class
4 longswords and longbows for wizards
5 the attack die and mighty deeds
6 capping out at 10th level
7 using smaller dice for extra attacks
8 the sell craft roll to see if succeed and the level you succeed at a spell
9 the concept of spell duels (haven't actually read the rules for it yet)
10 a very simple skill system


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 Post subject: Re: what you really like at first glance
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:09 am 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:59 am
Posts: 3
Philter wrote:
Absolutely the artwork, a few items stand out, mostly because they're pictures I remember so well from my first experiences of the game!
....
* P91's wizardess, Is that the cover of the book of marvelous magic, or some other Caldwell piece?
...


It does seem to be based on a Caldwell piece, one that was used as a Dragon cover in the early '80s (like issue 76 or so? It's been years). The woman had frizzier hair (hey, it was the '80s!), and her room was less cluttered, but it was quite similar. I think it was recycled for another D&D product in the '90s.

I freaking love the art in the beta rules. Outstanding!

Other likes:
--Wizard magic: the patrons, spell duels, unpredictable spell effects, spellburning, etc. It's a nice change from games where magic seems more like a predictable superpower than an attempt to harness an overwhelming arcane force.

--Warrior crit and initiative bonuses, and the Deeds. I love the idea of having a system for performing feats, instead of a million individual feats to pick from. Seems like these things will keep Warriors from being outclassed by spellcasters at the higher levels. (Although I'm not sure I'd want to be the only warrior at a spell duel: I think I'd just duck and cover.)

--Covering skills with occupation, class, and attributes. I can't fully express just how much I hated having to spend a nonweapon proficiency slot on "Rope Use" just to use a damn rope in AD&D 2e. Skill bloat (and feat bloat) killed the later editions of D&D for me.

--The rollover rule to revive a dead character. Simple and sweet.

I can't wait to see more.


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