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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:53 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver
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Use of Class die to retain spells (if result is Spell Level+2) = +d30
wonderful

Using d9,d11,d13 as class dice = +d24
very useful to keep probabilities in line with those from level 1 to 5

Different Class die mechanic for Clerics* = +d20
as long as it's not difference just for the sake of it, i'd like a neat use of the class die for clerics that is different from warrior/wizard's.

Class Die in place of Caster Level = +d16
useful because it won't create any unnecessary confusion (warriors add their class die instead of their level to attacks - then makes sense that wizards do the same for magic)

Changing Spell DCs = ?
i don't know, i haven't made up my mind yet. I think that it might not be necessary. Sure some probabilities might change from BETA but that may not be 100% bad.


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* i will create a new thread if there's not one already.

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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:13 am 
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bholmes4 wrote:
Which is not a bad thing necessarily.

For my house rules I considered using the class die as a seperate roll, simply to determine if the spell is memorized or not but I worry that is confusing or cumbersome. Switching the spell ranges so that they are wider groupings on the low end and smaller groupings on the high end (due to the bell curve results) was another option I considered. You could also simply make go for smaller adjustments on the low groups (ie. an attack spell that does d4, d6, d8) and then bigger jumps on the higher end (d12, d20, 2d16). This is not something I was willing to tackle though (for now) so I put it on the back-burner while I waited to see what the final product looked like. I was hoping some brilliant change would happen and I wouldn't have to house rule.


One other side point, then I will let the Wizard class die rest. The class die works better for the Warrior because the class die only really affects the chance to get hit. That it is also used for bonus damage is not as big of a deal to be honest because it is a limited pool of additional damage.

For a Wizard, the spell check roll is not only success/failure... but also how effective the spell is. There is a far greater range of damage possibilities for using a class die for a spell check than for a Warrior to utilize it.

After saying that, I will throw one more idea out there before resting on this thread (I have agitated enough people here).

Use the class die to determine spell effect. The spell chart would be something like this:

Code:
Magic Missiles (only works if progressive d class die system... (i.e. d9 and d11))

Category                  Effect                                   Keep/Lose Spell                 
Natural 1 on d20        Corruption/Spell Fail effects              depends on dClassDie
Spell failure               No effect or maybe a spell             depends on dClassDie
                              manifestation visual effect

If casting was successful (hit DC):
1                            1 missile for 1 damage                 lose
2                            1 missile for d4+1 damage              lose
3                            2 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
4                            3 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
5                            4 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
6                            5 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
7                            6 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
8                            7 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
9                            8 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
10                           9 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
11                          10 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep
12                          11 missiles for d4+1 damage             keep



Note: The spell is not really balanced properly, but instead just to illustrate an example

So to cast a spell you would still do a: d20+class_level+ability (to determine if successful). If

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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:22 am 
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Hamakto wrote:
*grins* Yes I can type that. I think that I am having a problem explaining all of the permutations that I see. You are just the 7.5% the spell check roll.

I see all the permutations you see. I just don't care about them. I am not worried about "balance" because I have no baseline to work from. You have been working on this for months and consider the "current" version as having some meaning that it really doesn't have. There is no "right" when it comes to how magic should work in DCCRPG except whatever ends up in the book in November.
Quote:
If you also modify the DC # (1st 13, 5th DC 17) you also adjust the % chance of spell success.

Of course. It changes from "what it might have been" to "what it IS". For 99.99% of all DCCRPG players the "what might have been method" never exists.
Quote:
PS - I have not seen that a d11 (or d9) will not be utilized. A zocci die may not exist for it, but that does not mean it will not exist [Side note: Maybe that is the reason Joseph only wanted 5 levels... the dice did not go to 10 -- LOL]

We can't really discuss this meaningfully if we don't agree on the dice used at 7th level and up. Throughout these boards I've assume the dice "exist": d10, d12, d14, d16, instead of the theoretical d9, d10, d11, d12. I kind like the idea that above 6th level the character gain a bit of kickass since 10th level is absolute ceiling of power.

Quote:
Now you look at the ranges you are going to hit on average at 9th level:

OLD: 11-30
NEW(d14): 3-35
NEW(d11): 3-32

and yet the 9th level spellcaster casting a 5th level spell, has results from 20-40+, but only my method comes the closest to reaching those heights.

Quote:
So in a way two dice do prevent larger swings of results. It will result in a caster failing a larger number of spells than they would under the old system. Even a first level spell is no longer a gimme with a 5% chance of failure. You are now looking at a 20% chance of failure for a 1st level (apprentice-style) spell. You are no longer going to average in the 20's, but now in the teens for effects.

This only applies if you change the current DCs. I think you leave them as is. The first level (+1 Int) wizard's first spell has 55% chance of success but only a 33% of retention. So the added chance of success is more than compensated by the retention. At high levels, the chance should never slip below 47.5 (with a +1 Int) for the wizard's most difficult spells.

Quote:
The average for a caster with +1 bonus is 45/55 (fail/success). That seemed to be Joseph's target number so keeping that inline so it scales to all spell levels is what I am trying to statistically accomplish.

Why? There is no requirement that magic have uniform distribution of probabilities across all spell and caster levels. Rule of Cool should trump statistical analysis when the RoC version is within a few percentages of the boring rigid math system.

Quote:
I will leave you with one more thought on using the combination of class die for spell checks and retaining spells. I have not done the full statistical analysis on this... but from rough calculations... if you roll low on the class die, you are most likely to fail. If you roll high on the class die, you have a much higher chance of successfully casting a spell. So by using the same die for both results, you are more often than not... rewarding spell casters that successfully cast spells and not those that fail.

I don't think this happens as often (at low level) as you might think. A d3 has little impact on a d20. Statistically, the d3+d20 will roll a 12.5. But people will still jump for joy when they roll d3=1,d20=15 and they get a slightly better magic missile smash into the bad guy but lose the spell. And they will still sigh when they get a d3=3,d20=5 and the spell fails but still can access the spell next round. At very high level using the d10 or higher, the swing becomes bigger but we all know there will not be any playtesting up in that stratosphere of play anyway so why worry about it.

I'm wondering if this conversation should not also have been moved out of this thread. I'm going to repost my powerlevel chart in a new thread because I'd like to be discussing that, too.


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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:24 am 
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Hamakto wrote:
After saying that, I will throw one more idea out there before resting on this thread (I have agitated enough people here).

Use my system for the wizard and use this system for the cleric. Then the two spellcasting "systems" will actually be different.


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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:14 pm 
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You could tie the clerics results to the class die as this might represent "Favour" with the god, and thus clerics of equal level tend to get the same treatment from their god. If you are a 1st level cleric you have a range of 3 results, a god simply won't alter the stars for you sorry. Gain favour through raising through the ranks and he may take more notice of you, expending more of his power
to aid you.

If the god is angry with you perhaps he reduces your class die by one, continue to anger him and it may go lower until you atone. If you honour him and he favours you perhaps you get a bonus to divine intervention, or a temporary class die shift up. Really though the only way to do that is continued service and that means raising through the ranks (levels).

Not sure I like that last part, not even sure I like this idea at all as I would need to try it out in-game, but there are options to play with and it has potential.


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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:52 am 
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i playtested (1st level party) last night the wizard class die as follows.

Spellcheck : d20 +d3 + (INT mod)
Spell Loss : if result of Class die < (spell level +2)
Spell DC : unchanged

It worked fine. Having 33% chance of being able to keep the spell and cast it again made the wizard a little more cautious about using his powers (he can cast only Sleep as offensive spell, but then he has only Magic Shield, Mending, and Summon Animal that automatically causes corruption; he can cast invoke patron 1/week); before this session he was quite confident about casting Sleep, knowing that 50% of the times he would've been able to cast it again. Now, he knew that he could rely on casting each of his spells once.

I think that a higher chance of success at casting each spell once, lower chance of being able cast the same spell again goes back to the roots of D&D when wizards could cast each of their spells once per adventure. It also stimulates the player as he'll have to find intelligent uses for his less powerful spells (maybe profiting from a particulare Mercurial manifestation), intead of always casting the same two.

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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:44 pm 
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I would add this: Roll for Corruption if d20 result = 1 and Class Die < Spell Level +2
This limits Corruption when casting lower level spells.
The issue, however is that it makes magical fumbles very rare.

Also, I would advance the Class Die more slowly, perhaps every other level: d3,d3,d4,d4,d5

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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Another idea, rather than slowing the Class die progression is to make the it a multiple rather than a plus 2.

Spell Loss : if result of Class die < (spell level x2)

This would slow down attempts by wizards to over reach their power. It also make 1st level wizards particularly vulnerable (zero chance of retaining spell).

Ideas...

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 Post subject: Re: "Limiting" Corruption
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:35 pm 
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caveman wrote:
Another idea, rather than slowing the Class die progression is to make the it a multiple rather than a plus 2.

Spell Loss : if result of Class die < (spell level x2)

This would slow down attempts by wizards to over reach their power. It also make 1st level wizards particularly vulnerable (zero chance of retaining spell).

Ideas...

If i'm reading that alright, doesn't that mean that a 1st level wiz would roll a d3, then keep the 1st level spell if he gets a 2 or a 3 (67%) and lose it only on a 1?? :?
How does this relate to the Highlightted part?!

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