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 Post subject: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:07 am 
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I started my DCCRPG campaign last friday with Portal under Starts
http://theraskalrpg.blogspot.com/2011/10/session-1-21102011.html
(i hope tp known quicky who is the goat-men :twisted: )

Some 0-level characters have survived and they can now choose a class. I have a dwarf and several halfling but the players (more AD&D than B/X) are not confortable with Dwarf class and Halfling Class. I known that Joseph write "At some point in the future, I suspect there will be more options for demi-human characters. BUT that's outside the scope of what I'm intending to do", but i am looking for your point of view about that. Do you allow a Dwarf Cleric for exemple, do you use alternate class, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:26 am 
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The players need to look at it not as though they are making a Dwarf Warrior, a Halfling Warrior or an Elf Wizard. That's what I tell my players. Eventually they can choose other classes for those races but right now those are the only choices.

Oh and the demi-human versions of those classes are different than the human versions. But try not to think of it as their "class".


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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:36 am 
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The rules are designed so that "Dwarf" is an option, while Dwarf-Cleric is not. I've thought about thinkering with it but wanted to wait until playtesting has wound down more.

In general I allow for a pretty loose multiclass system and a Dwarf-Cleric could simply be a multiclass of the two.

I like the simplicity of race=class but have also had fun in other RPGs where race and class can be put together in different combinations, so I guess I'm undecided overall about this.

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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:26 am 
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bholmes4 wrote:
The players need to look at it not as though they are making a Dwarf Warrior, a Halfling Warrior or an Elf Wizard. That's what I tell my players. Eventually they can choose other classes for those races but right now those are the only choices.

Oh and the demi-human versions of those classes are different than the human versions. But try not to think of it as their "class".

Why not put the extra name next to the "racial class" to avoid this confusion?

Instead of having Dwarf, Elf and Halfling, have Dwarf Guardian, Elf Warden and Halfling Sheriff. Then there would not be confusion about class and race. And the implication that there are Elf Sorcerers and Dwarf Runemasters, just not in the book, is made as well


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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:56 am 
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For my players, it's not a name issue (even if Dwarf Guardian is more sexy) but a problem of limited choice for the demi-human.

For example, one of my players rolls 4 0-level characters and 2 of them are halflings. The only survivors of the first adventure are these 2 halflings. So now the player will play two 1st level halflings (2 PC of the same class)

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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:06 pm 
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@ raskal> seems to me like you have a nearly perfect opportunity for some advanced Beta-testing.

What if you promoted everyone to 2nd level and let the player with 2 Halflings play one as:
Halfling 2, and the other as; Halfling 1/ (other class) 1? The player can get a side-by-side comparison of how they work...if they work... and it should become apparent rather quickly if Multi-Classing enhances or breaks the game.

My recommendation would be to try Halfling 1/Thief 1; if any combo is going to break the game it will be that one. Might as well test the 'worst case' scenario of Thief Luck ability (variable luck bonus) plus Halfling Luck ability (gains 2 for 1 on luck)... Technically the Halfling Thief combo can spend 1 point of Luck and get +2d3: and the luck regenerates.

Also, I recall Mr. G posting that non-humans can have a class, they just don't get to keep any of their racial abilities... Admittedly it resolves most of the issues like the one above, but for me this is not acceptable, as it creates an existential dilemma. I.e. a Dwarf that has no ability to craft, work with stone, see in the dark, etc. isn't a Dwarf. It's a short Human with body-hair issues.

------------------

in general: I don't like the 'it can be handled with a 3pp or later GG publishing' idea because as I recall, one of the stated goals for the design is to make a system that avoids the problem with needing a 'stack of rulebooks & supplements' to play. One of the first questions out of the mouths of my players was: "Is there Multi-Classing?" And both groups were visibly & audibly disappointed when I said no. Multi-Classing has been part of D&D for most of its existence and IMO players expect it, so it should be part of the core rules for DCCRPG if they want it to compete successfully in the market.


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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:31 am 
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Tortog wrote:
I.e. a Dwarf that has no ability to craft, work with stone, see in the dark, etc. isn't a Dwarf. It's a short Human with body-hair issues.


Maybe that dwarf was raised by humans, or among them, so he really never had the chance to use and learn his racial abilities. Along those lines, an elf would be a sleek human with pointed years, and a halfling would be a short human with hairy feet. I don't see any problems with that; also, it gives some opportunity to roleplay hatred between "purebloods" and "human-borns".

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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:24 am 
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abk108 wrote:
Tortog wrote:
I.e. a Dwarf that has no ability to craft, work with stone, see in the dark, etc. isn't a Dwarf. It's a short Human with body-hair issues.


Maybe that dwarf was raised by humans, or among them, so he really never had the chance to use and learn his racial abilities.


That's a 'Nature Vs Nurture' argument, but it doesn't matter if non-humans are reared outside their normal societies: genetics is genetics. The Dwarven race is born of earth and stone. Their abilities to see in the dark, to smell gold and gems, and stat bonuses (for those who choose to use them) are all gifts of their ancestors.

LOL... I'd love to see the secret martial art by which the Halflings develop their Luck powers...

"Prancing Drunkard/ Hidden Coward", " The way of the Frying Pan", or maybe "U Luk Fu"

I'd also like to see the remedy by which Non-Elven parents heal their Elven wards of the allergy to iron...

"Comm'ere Jr., its time for your iron spike treatment..." Leading to the Urban 'pierced look' for city Elves...

Quote:
Along those lines, an elf would be a sleek human with pointed years, and a halfling would be a short human with hairy feet. I don't see any problems with that; also, it gives some opportunity to roleplay hatred between "purebloods" and "human-borns".


Whatever floats your boat. In general I've never been a fan of role playing hatred anyways, plenty of other causes and motivators for characters and from my experience it nearly always causes problems between players of opposing factions.


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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:58 pm 
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I ran into a bit of a problem when running a funnel adventure recently. One of the characters that was created was an Elven Sage. I understand how to create 0-level humans, but what abilities does a 0-level Elf, Dwarf, or Halfling have? Do they not have infravision, immunity to sleep, or vulnerability to iron? Do these traits simply appear once they reach 1st level? I had to handle the problem by making that elf character 1st level, while the others remained 0-level. I also let each player make one of their characters 1st level to be fair.
Am I missing something in the rules? Has anyone else had this problem?


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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:54 am 
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Old Scratch wrote:
I ran into a bit of a problem when running a funnel adventure recently. One of the characters that was created was an Elven Sage. I understand how to create 0-level humans, but what abilities does a 0-level Elf, Dwarf, or Halfling have? Do they not have infravision, immunity to sleep, or vulnerability to iron? Do these traits simply appear once they reach 1st level? I had to handle the problem by making that elf character 1st level, while the others remained 0-level. I also let each player make one of their characters 1st level to be fair.
Am I missing something in the rules? Has anyone else had this problem?

Yep, and IIRC it was told, that you get your racial abilities at zero level - like infravision, detecting traps easier.

Tortog wrote:
Also, I recall Mr. G posting that non-humans can have a class, they just don't get to keep any of their racial abilities...

I thought the same until Mr. G wrote somewhere that unless you house rule it otherwise, demi-humans can only take demi-human classes.

raskal wrote:
For example, one of my players rolls 4 0-level characters and 2 of them are halflings. The only survivors of the first adventure are these 2 halflings. So now the player will play two 1st level halflings (2 PC of the same class)

The class here is a loose archetype of classic fantasy literature, not an adventuring profession like in AD&D. Two halflings can be just as different as two warriors, wizards. Just check their ability scores, their profession, their birth augur, their equipment and (the most important part) their personality. Check out Lord of the Rings. The fellowship had a wizard, two warriors, an elf, a dwarf, four halflings. Boromir and Aragorn were just as different from each other, like Frodo and Sam.

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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:57 am 
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Old Scratch wrote:
../.. but what abilities does a 0-level Elf, Dwarf, or Halfling have? Do they not have infravision, immunity to sleep, or vulnerability to iron? Do these traits simply appear once they reach 1st level? ../..

I use the following rule :

0-level Dwarf
Infravision
Slow
Underground Skills

0-level Elf
Infravision
Immunities
Vulnerabilities
Heightned Senses

0-level Halfling
Infravision
Small Size
Slow

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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:21 am 
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A nice list, raskal. Seems like it gives a bit of an edge to non-human level-0 characters without unbalancing anything.

I assume that you insist that they continue as that race as class (e.g. not becoming an "elven fighter" or some such)? Otherwise you might have that "well I had infravision as a level-0 character, then lost it when I became a fighter" issue. Or perhaps non-humans get that list even with human classes? Just curious as to how you do it.

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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:51 am 
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The idea is to enable elfs, dwarfs and halflngs to access (human) classes of Warrior, Mage, Cleric and Thief. They retain the racial capabiliies (0-level) and they obtain the class features.

For exemple, a halfling Thief has Infravision (racial), Luck and Wits (Thief Class) but not Good luck charm (the character is a Thief not a Halfling). In this case, I equate the class of Halfling to a class of Scout

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 Post subject: Re: Class & Racial Class
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:25 am 
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raskal wrote:
The idea is to enable elfs, dwarfs and halflngs to access (human) classes of Warrior, Mage, Cleric and Thief. They retain the racial capabiliies (0-level) and they obtain the class features.

For exemple, a halfling Thief has Infravision (racial), Luck and Wits (Thief Class) but not Good luck charm (the character is a Thief not a Halfling). In this case, I equate the class of Halfling to a class of Scout

I would leave the good luck charm as racial, since the little fellow brings luck because he's a halfling, and not because he's a scout. I'm planning to do something like this, because my next campaign is going to be a bit like Arduin. Maybe I'm not going to write a bunch of new classes, since the core four covers everything we need, but I want to have a huge amount of races available for players - orcs, insectoids, amazons, lizardmen, etc.

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