Cleric Sacrifice???

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brogan_a
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Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by brogan_a » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:03 pm

How does the sacrifice mechanic work when you are in the middle of the dungeon? At the end of the day your cleric wants to sacrifice a 100 GP gem to his god, to reduce the auto fail by 2. Can he do this in combat? How long does it take? Does the cleric say hold on guys while I run out of the dungeon and go to town to drop some gold into the church's coffer...

What is the purpose of going on a quest instead of making a sacrifice? All the cleric would have to do is just wait one day and then their negatives are reset.

Thanks.

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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Ducaster » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:29 pm

yeah I'd like to see this defined a bit better too. So far NONE of my groups three clerics have ever tried it in over two months of weekly play...

Do ya just chuck a bag of gold down a storm drain or something? It doesn't seem too "Reverant" if so to me..

I think a better mechanic would be for a Cleric to accumulate "Piety points" for past sacrifices that they trade in as needed to offset penalties. Not too many at a time mind you, say one per level per spell or something.
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by brogan_a » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:49 pm

I really like the thought of how it works, I just don't know how to implement it. In my last game session, the cleric rolled horribly on heals most of the night, especially early in the session. We had a combat in a treasure room, and he just kept sacrificing items on the floor to reduce the penalty.

I actually like the thought of paying it forward, so actually going on a holy quest would build up points in a "bank" of sorts. Maybe you give the cleric an option of "pre-paying" to get a bank of points, and then also an option of paying on the fly.

At the end of the night, our group was in dire straights, and the cleric pulled out is only magic item, a holy weapon and sacrificed it on the spot. He was able to reduce all of his penalties and then throw around some cures. I do like the new change where failures just add to the minimum for a failed die roll, that is a bit less harsh for those clerics that can't roll above an 11 most of the time.

- A. Brogan

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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by DCCfan » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:48 am

Ducaster wrote: Do ya just chuck a bag of gold down a storm drain or something? It doesn't seem too "Reverant" if so to me..
:lol: Almost spit out my coffee.
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Hamakto » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:17 am

I don't totally disagree with everyone here as sacrifice mechanic needs to be in the class.

But I would actually like to see sacrifice (as currently written) removed from the Cleric class. You should never be able to 'chuck gold in the sewer' to get rid of an accrued penalty. This just starts to promote infinite spell casting as characters get higher and higher in level. It also means that the Cleric will not play the same in low treasure vs. high treasure campaigns. The cleric as written should mechanically play the same no matter what type of campaign you are running (money wise).

After saying that, I would be willing to see something like this put into play:

Holy Relic of Your God - suppresses 1 or more points of accrued disfavor (minimum of one). Limited uses?

Holy Salve of Healing+X: Potion of healing too much... salve of healing from the temple would give you a +X on your caster roll and maybe a -x on disapproval chances. One shot consumable.

Sacrifice to your god (something appropriate): Instead of providing a single spell check bonus, maybe allow two (or more) spell check chances to determine best roll. This provides a mechanic to get around a disapproval range that is growing big and have a better chance at a higher spell result. Even rolling two dice you COULD do poorly, but you will get a better spell result AND greatly reduce disapproval chances with two (or more) rolls. (Statistically speaking)

The above are just thoughts to add to the conversation.
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Ducaster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:50 am

Hamakto wrote:I don't totally disagree with everyone here as sacrifice mechanic needs to be in the class.

.... means that the Cleric will not play the same in low treasure vs. high treasure campaigns. The cleric as written should mechanically play the same no matter what type of campaign you are running (money wise).

After saying that, I would be willing to see something like this put into play:

Holy Relic of Your God - suppresses 1 or more points of accrued disfavor (minimum of one). Limited uses?

Holy Salve of Healing+X: Potion of healing too much... salve of healing from the temple would give you a +X on your caster roll and maybe a -x on disapproval chances. One shot consumable.
+d16 Bravo Sir good input! Oh and for the record I was being rather Ironic with my "Storm Drain" example. But as written in the Beta I think the idea is actually legal and thus Risible.

Having Cleric only Purchasable or (in later levels) creatable items that grant bonuses as you describe are an excellent idea. Consider them under test in my game as of now!
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by brogan_a » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:01 pm

Hamakto wrote:I don't totally disagree with everyone here as sacrifice mechanic needs to be in the class.

But I would actually like to see sacrifice (as currently written) removed from the Cleric class. You should never be able to 'chuck gold in the sewer' to get rid of an accrued penalty. This just starts to promote infinite spell casting as characters get higher and higher in level. It also means that the Cleric will not play the same in low treasure vs. high treasure campaigns. The cleric as written should mechanically play the same no matter what type of campaign you are running (money wise).

After saying that, I would be willing to see something like this put into play:

Holy Relic of Your God - suppresses 1 or more points of accrued disfavor (minimum of one). Limited uses?

Holy Salve of Healing+X: Potion of healing too much... salve of healing from the temple would give you a +X on your caster roll and maybe a -x on disapproval chances. One shot consumable.

Sacrifice to your god (something appropriate): Instead of providing a single spell check bonus, maybe allow two (or more) spell check chances to determine best roll. This provides a mechanic to get around a disapproval range that is growing big and have a better chance at a higher spell result. Even rolling two dice you COULD do poorly, but you will get a better spell result AND greatly reduce disapproval chances with two (or more) rolls. (Statistically speaking)
I am not sure that really fixes anything either. Not that the method needs to be fixed, but better defined. I do agree that the Cleric class should play roughly the same in a low or high gold campaign.
What about limiting the number of times a day a Cleric can make a sacrifice and making the sacrifice cost scale as they level? For instance, a Cleric can use the sacrifice mechanic:
number of times per day = level + Personality bonus
cost to sacrifice = 50 gp x level


So a 4th level Cleric would be allowed to sacrifice down his penalty up to 4 times (more with a good bonus) a day at a cost of 200 gp per sacrifice.

I do really, really like the idea of running a quest for your god/church to do something beneficial for you, I just don't know how this would count towards something like a sacrifice penalty. Maybe after the quest the Clerics holy symbol is imbued with a number of charges they can use for the sacrifice whenever they would like. We could even still cap the number of times per day if needed and just make the "quest"
sacrifice out of the holy symbol free to the Cleric.

With the newer mechanic for Cleric sacrifices being introduced by Joesph, the actual penalty is somewhat reduced, so I don't know if Clerics would really need an almost unlimited way to cast spells.

- A. Brogan

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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Hamakto » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:12 am

brogan_a wrote: I do really, really like the idea of running a quest for your god/church to do something beneficial for you, I just don't know how this would count towards something like a sacrifice penalty. Maybe after the quest the Clerics holy symbol is imbued with a number of charges they can use for the sacrifice whenever they would like. We could even still cap the number of times per day if needed and just make the "quest"
sacrifice out of the holy symbol free to the Cleric.

With the newer mechanic for Cleric sacrifices being introduced by Joesph, the actual penalty is somewhat reduced, so I don't know if Clerics would really need an almost unlimited way to cast spells.

- A. Brogan
Unless I am missing something, the disapproval penalty that is accrued by the Cleric is reset every day. So a quest would be unnecessary to do as you would just sleep on it for the night to reset.

Now the affects from a roll on the disapproval table are a whole different situation to consider. I would not have a problem with sacrifices affecting or mitigating the results from that table. But looking at the table, he already has some of that worked into the table.

So I am back to the point that a sacrifice should probably not affect the accumulated disapproval number. But instead should work like a Wizards Spell Burn mechanic. Provide a one time bonus to a spell. Which works mechanically more like a ritual/spell in stories (i.e. sacrifice a virgin to summon the demon or effect)
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by jmucchiello » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:37 am

A sacrifice should be a ceremony that requires an altar dedicated to your deity. It should require expended accoutrements that are not included in the "value" of the sacrifice (incense, candles, virgins, etc) that are in keeping with the deity's portfolio. And finally it should require TIME.

My deity is upset with the pace with which I have used his bounty, I will chant the Book of 10,000 Laments in his honor to atone for this. One does not open the Book of 10,000 Laments without the 12 Lamps of Lamenting filled with oil mixed with tears from an angel. Etc.

IOW, the book makes it seem like making a sacrifice is easy. It should not be easy, not even a little bit easy.

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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Abchiptop » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:45 am

Why not allow their god to consume the gold in a holy blaze?
I was planning on ruling that the cleric must sacrifice 80% of current worldly possessions to negate one penalty point. That includes any weapons and the clothes on their back in the total value.
other acceptable sacrifices include fresh kills of unholy to the deity monsters and depending on deity, self inflicted harm (possibly at a rate of 2 hp per point)

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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Ducaster » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:05 pm

jmucchiello wrote:A sacrifice should be a ceremony that requires an altar dedicated to your deity. It should require expended accoutrements that are not included in the "value" of the sacrifice (incense, candles, virgins, etc) that are in keeping with the deity's portfolio. And finally it should require TIME.

IOW, the book makes it seem like making a sacrifice is easy. It should not be easy, not even a little bit easy.
Totally agree with the point here. Though I feel it IS acceptable for the occasional "instant Sacrifice" now and again. But of course the real problem here is that the "Sacrifice" needs to be specific to the Deity in question to make real sense?

I mean dedicating a Kill (solo kill nobody helping out I mean) might work if you follow a god of war etc.
Sacrificing a Maiden is ok if your following the god of evil etc.
Performing an act of self flagellation is OK if your a follower of Some Acetic deity as well...

And so on and so on.

The gold for remitted penalties is a good generic way to simulate this but cannot work in all circumstances. I mean if you were a follower of Plutus and you threw gold away (as in my tongue in cheek example previously) you'd be guilty of Sin! But on the other hand if you give it to the temple that would work. The problem with that is that the temple is usually a long way away from the dungeon...

I realize it would take a fair bit of work but if the finished book (or perhaps a supplement) could have guidelines per pantheon or "Domain" of what constitutes an acceptable sacrifice then we'd all bless you!

For now I think I'm gonna stick with allowing a limited amount of Credit to be accrued by Clerics who donate or sacrifice before an adventure to the cause of their god(s) In some appropriate way for that Deity.
Say one or two points per level they have attained, that they can "cash in" when they really need to avoid that spell dissaproval result (Like in the middle of a deadly combat)
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Tortog » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:00 pm

This thread reminds me of the punch-line from an old joke: "Throw the money into the air: whatever the Gods want... they'll keep."

Only in the land of Jerry Falwell & the 700 club could salvation and redemption be reduced to cold, hard, cash.

The concept of sacrifice is a fine mechanic for clerics, but I have no intention of letting players "spend" their way into grace; but then I set up a series of duties and responsibilities for the cleric player to work with ahead of time. The concept of "sacrifice" means that whatever is given is something you really don't want to loose, and even a casual reading of history will show that "blood" is the preferred coin of exchange. Good clerics can sacrifice their own HP... Evil clerics can sacrifice the blood of someone else. The offering/taking of body parts has always come in a close second, followed by intangibles like "the memory of your parents love for you" or going on a quest to retrieve a rare flower without calling on the power of the Gods, etc. The Gods may not actually care about having these things, what is important is that the cleric is unwilling to part with, or do whatever sacrifice is being asked.

Ex: cleric needs to cast something important, but has too high a modifier so success is unlikely... so in the swirl of combat, the cleric pushes a fellow adventurer out of the way of an attack and accepts the damage from the blow. The willingness to take the damage and pain of others would qualify as a noble blood sacrifice for a good cleric.

Ex: in my games, the clergy of Justica are required to undergo a ritual removal of their eyes, because justice is blind if it is to be fair. The clergy is also required to be female... but becoming a eunuch (and giving up their eyes) are acceptable sacrifices for males wishing to enter the service of Justica.

IMO, the best policy is to not be too heavy with the -1 cumulative penalty... I don't plan on enforcing it for everything the cleric does. EX: using lay-on-hands to heal the faithful doesn't count against the cleric... because that is one of their duties.

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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by DCCfan » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:17 am

Tortog wrote:This thread reminds me of the punch-line from an old joke: "Throw the money into the air: whatever the Gods want... they'll keep."

:lol:


Ex: in my games, the clergy of Justica are required to undergo a ritual removal of their eyes, because justice is blind if it is to be fair. The clergy is also required to be female... but becoming a eunuch (and giving up their eyes) are acceptable sacrifices for males wishing to enter the service of Justica.
YIKES! :shock:
I'll stick to playing fighters.
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Tortog » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:43 pm

DCCfan wrote: YIKES! :shock:
I'll stick to playing fighters.

Cleric players in my games are well compensated for there devotions to their chosen deity. The eunuchs in Justica's service are venerated for their convictions (story bonuses) and they each get +2 STR & STAM... because when you remove testosterone from males they add 20 to 30% more muscle bulk. All who enter Justica's service give up their eyes, but the last part of the ritual is when they open their eye lids and realize that they have been given a limited form of blind sight as reward for their devotion. EDIT for clarity: (blind sight is limited to knowing where objects are, and roughly how big/small an object is: range=5ft/level)

To each their own. :) I'll never understand why folks are so enamored of fighters (regardless of game-system) because they always boil down to "hack-kill-loot-repeat"... *yawn* :D

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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by GnomeBoy » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:22 pm

Tortog wrote:...[fighters] always boil down to "hack-kill-loot-repeat"...
You say that like that's a bad thing... :mrgreen:

And when did we start boiling them down, anyway? Is it just for the fat? 'Coz the good ones don't have all that much. The evil ones, either, for that matter.
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Re: Cleric Sacrifice???

Post by Tortog » Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:51 pm

GnomeBoy wrote:You say that like that's a bad thing... :mrgreen:
Not bad... just dull, and monotonous. :)
And when did we start boiling them down, anyway? Is it just for the fat? 'Coz the good ones don't have all that much. The evil ones, either, for that matter.
Speaking as a veteran DM... "As often as I can! The oils are great for deep frying." :lol:

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