Stat Increases As Levels Increase

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Should DCC characters have a chance of increasing stats as they level up?

No stat increases ever!
10
26%
Give them a chance of a +1 increase every few levels, but don't make it a certainty!
15
38%
Give them a simple +1 bonus every few levels!
7
18%
None of the above! See my answer below!
7
18%
 
Total votes: 39

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Colin
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Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by Colin » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:24 pm

There've been a couple threads discussing character improvement options both HERE and HERE.

Various reasons have been put forward for the possibility that characters should be able to increase stats at certain levels, or at least have a chance to do so:

1) Stat attrition can be a problem.
2) Stats should be able to scale somewhat as characters gain greater levels, showing a measure of improvement.
3) It reinforces the difference between classless characters and classed ones.
etc.

NOTE: This is not a poll r.e. alternate stat generation methods. It exists purely for the discussion of the possibility of a +1 (whether automatic, or just a chance as in having to roll over the current stat value on 3D6 to get that +1) to a stat every 2-3 levels, with a max of 18.

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Last edited by Colin on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by dunbruha » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:41 pm

I think they should have a chance (roll 3d6 above current value) to increase any stat that has been reduced (to a maximum of the original value), each level.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by JediOre » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:17 am

Since there are but ten levels in the game, I have no problem with allowing PCs to gain one attribute point per level.

To address others concerns about the potential slow level progression, I think it may be worthwhile to allow the increase to occur when the PC makes mid-point in the class level. Perhaps this increase could be based upon the adventures experienced?. I. E., when Joe the Warrior crests the halfway mark in experience points at first level, Joe's player adds a point to the PC's endurance, since Joe survived the scorpion sting. However, the player may just as well request increasing Joe's strength since Joe works out each morning, and swinging that two-handed axe improves muscle tone!

I also have no problem with handing out increases to luck as a reward to good, or lucky, play.

Just some thoughts.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by sgtqueso » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:13 am

dunbruha wrote:I think they should have a chance (roll 3d6 above current value) to increase any stat that has been reduced (to a maximum of the original value), each level.
I like this option. As long as you pick the stat BEFORE you roll the 3d6.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by dunbruha » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:30 pm

sgtqueso wrote:
dunbruha wrote:I think they should have a chance (roll 3d6 above current value) to increase any stat that has been reduced (to a maximum of the original value), each level.
I like this option. As long as you pick the stat BEFORE you roll the 3d6.
Yes.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by DCCfan » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:00 am

As stated above I can't see a couple of +1's to stats over ten levels breaking the game. Also we all know players love rolling dice. Feeling like they just won something others don't have with a lucky die roll always makes them happy. I would house rule this if it doesn't make it into the rules.
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by smathis » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:20 am

DCCfan wrote:As stated above I can't see a couple of +1's to stats over ten levels breaking the game. Also we all know players love rolling dice. Feeling like they just won something others don't have with a lucky die roll always makes them happy. I would house rule this if it doesn't make it into the rules.
That's pretty much where I am on it too.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by abk108 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:00 pm

I houseruled so far to allow a Save to characters for each stat loss, at the end of a quest:
if they pass, the stat loss is recovered fully. If not, 1 point is permanently lost.
(therefore that -5 STR poison would really get the dwarf into troubles for the current story, but then, if he survives that long, he'd shrug off most of the ill effects)
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by fjw70 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:57 am

I voted no stat increase but I have my own stat rolling method that is guaranteed to give good stats to begin with and I do not plan to use permanent stat loss (or use it very sparingly). So I really don't need stat increases.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by jmucchiello » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:24 am

abk108 wrote:I houseruled so far to allow a Save to characters for each stat loss, at the end of a quest:
if they pass, the stat loss is recovered fully. If not, 1 point is permanently lost.
(therefore that -5 STR poison would really get the dwarf into troubles for the current story, but then, if he survives that long, he'd shrug off most of the ill effects)
That's a good idea for poison. But it doesn't help with spellburn and other "voluntary" loss of stats. It is a very good story element for the wizard to burn all his Str, Agil and Per in order to cast a few awesome spells that help defeat dragon. But like all story elements, it only works in a story because in a story it is logical for the frail beyond his years wizard to retire. But that doesn't make for a good RPG experience when the rest of the party plans to continue gaining levels leaving the 4th level wizard to be forgotten as they continue their journeys.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by abk108 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:59 am

jmucchiello wrote:
abk108 wrote:I houseruled so far to allow a Save to characters for each stat loss, at the end of a quest:
if they pass, the stat loss is recovered fully. If not, 1 point is permanently lost.
(therefore that -5 STR poison would really get the dwarf into troubles for the current story, but then, if he survives that long, he'd shrug off most of the ill effects)
That's a good idea for poison. But it doesn't help with spellburn and other "voluntary" loss of stats. It is a very good story element for the wizard to burn all his Str, Agil and Per in order to cast a few awesome spells that help defeat dragon. But like all story elements, it only works in a story because in a story it is logical for the frail beyond his years wizard to retire. But that doesn't make for a good RPG experience when the rest of the party plans to continue gaining levels leaving the 4th level wizard to be forgotten as they continue their journeys.
I did the same for Wizards. I just can't stand that they are supposed to recover lost "spellburned" stats 1 point per night. That's just lame. I treat it as any other "loss": they roll a save (Will? most likely) and if they pass they recover to full health over a few days/weeks/months. If not, they will bear the scars of their presumption, and a -1 is permanent. The character is weaker but still playable.
I think this way we'll have Warriors & Thieves losing stats to poison at more or less the same rate as Wizards lose physical stats for reckless spellburn.

Another option could be a different mechanic altoghether if we cannot make sense of spellburn as it is: for example

"Lose 1 permanently on a phys stat.
Then declare you're going to roll a number of times (up to your Level) on the Corruption chart (spell specific or general).
Then cast the spell: you get +3 for each roll on the Corruption Chart."
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by Ducaster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:16 am

After having a player or two use my incautious agreement for some between downtime to Spellburn themselves nearly to a pile of Ash to cast a find familar spell recently. I think I am going to include the following two (House) rules:-

1) When you spell burn you instead of burning 1 point at a time you declare how many d3's of attributes your sacrificing... This simulates the inability to stop the blood flowing when the Demon Naga sucks on it to empower your spell etc.. Oh and if any attribute goes to 0 in my game you die...

2) You PERMANENTLY lose 1 attribute point per 10 Spellburned points. This naturelly simulates the hideous scarring that a Mega Spellburn would naturelly inflict on the Wiz somehow.

Now lest you think I am not being relavent to this thread may I nail my colors to the Mast as being on the side of those that favor the 3d6 roll over one attribute each time you gain a level (Including at 0-1st I might add) Weather you play a 5 level or a 10 Level game I don't think that you will get too many abuses of that particular subsystem. I am also experimenting with an idea for temporary Stat increase potions (Magic Angel Dust anybody?) to offset the Stat degeneration curve that is apparent in DCC as it stands. These need not be magical after all and makes the "Alchemist " Background suddenly a ot more desirable!

I personally don't mind the spellburn recovering at 1pt per day Provided on that day they loose no other attributes! IE only when you really rest to you get stuff back. I use a similar rule for poisons & Disease effects thus far with some sucess.
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by Hamakto » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:23 am

Ducaster wrote:After having a player or two use my incautious agreement for some between downtime to Spellburn themselves nearly to a pile of Ash to cast a find familar spell recently. I think I am going to include the following two (House) rules:-

1) When you spell burn you instead of burning 1 point at a time you declare how many d3's of attributes your sacrificing... This simulates the inability to stop the blood flowing when the Demon Naga sucks on it to empower your spell etc.. Oh and if any attribute goes to 0 in my game you die...

2) You PERMANENTLY lose 1 attribute point per 10 Spellburned points. This naturelly simulates the hideous scarring that a Mega Spellburn would naturelly inflict on the Wiz somehow.

Now lest you think I am not being relavent to this thread may I nail my colors to the Mast as being on the side of those that favor the 3d6 roll over one attribute each time you gain a level (Including at 0-1st I might add) Weather you play a 5 level or a 10 Level game I don't think that you will get too many abuses of that particular subsystem. I am also experimenting with an idea for temporary Stat increase potions (Magic Angel Dust anybody?) to offset the Stat degeneration curve that is apparent in DCC as it stands. These need not be magical after all and makes the "Alchemist " Background suddenly a ot more desirable!

I personally don't mind the spellburn recovering at 1pt per day Provided on that day they loose no other attributes! IE only when you really rest to you get stuff back. I use a similar rule for poisons & Disease effects thus far with some sucess.
I was always in favor of the following spell burn alternatives:

1. You can only spell burn up to your class level in points. Puts a good cap on it.

or

2. You can only spell burn up to your class level / 3 in slots. What is a slot, it is a result category on the spell charts. (i.e. 12-14, 15-18, 19-21). You make your roll as normal, then you adjust it up by slots. This had the side effect of moving a 2-11 result to a 12+ successful result, but then a spell burn would guarantee success. I really wanted multiple failure categories for a spell (i.e. 1 - auto failure, 2-4 failure bad, 5-7 nothing, 8-11 minor visual effect). Note: Natural 1 = Auto Failure
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by Ducaster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:45 am

Hamakto wrote: I was always in favor of the following spell burn alternatives:

1. You can only spell burn up to your class level in points. Puts a good cap on it.

or

2. You can only spell burn up to your class level / 3 in slots. What is a slot, it is a result category on the spell charts. (i.e. 12-14, 15-18, 19-21). You make your roll as normal, then you adjust it up by slots. This had the side effect of moving a 2-11 result to a 12+ successful result, but then a spell burn would guarantee success. I really wanted multiple failure categories for a spell (i.e. 1 - auto failure, 2-4 failure bad, 5-7 nothing, 8-11 minor visual effect). Note: Natural 1 = Auto Failure
I like the idea of a sliding scale of spellburn or other magic failure. But catagorically disagree with the first Idea. The reason being that it seems to prevent the "Heroic Mage" option of blasting thru 20 Stat points for an auto 20 on his/her& soon to be ITS spell casting roll. That is a great game mechanic and very very App N in feel. The all or nothing last ditch do or Die maneuver! Exquisite!

The problem is with the "Casual" use of Spellburn I am seeing. Now that may well be the way my players are adapting to my interpretation of DCC but then again it may be something more. I can now readily see why Joseph sidestepped "Ritual" Magic in the Beta OMG!
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by finarvyn » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:05 am

Ducaster wrote:The problem is with the "Casual" use of Spellburn I am seeing. Now that may well be the way my players are adapting to my interpretation of DCC but then again it may be something more. I can now readily see why Joseph sidestepped "Ritual" Magic in the Beta OMG!
Exactly! Spellburn is supposed to be like a "death curse" where you use it in an emergency. Spellburn isn't supposed to be another daily routine by which magic users become just that much more awesome.
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by Pilgrim » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:22 pm

Even though I'm really more in the "No natural stat advancement" camp, I could work with the "chance at a +1 every so often" method if necessary.
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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by kvezner » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:20 am

Setting aside what seems to be a real problem in permanent stat attrition, stat progression is a natural process in real world living and should be reflected in the DCC RPG. I have read enough of this appendix N canon to remember that Fafhrd starts out as a stripling youth, an acknowledged exceptional youth to be sure but a youth nonetheless. Any game of Fafhrd's career over the novels would have to allow for some progression in skill (stats) as he matures and develops and his adventures further test his mettle. Any PC should get the same, it is just natural.

I would just say +1 to a single stat of your choice at every level, 18 stat max. The progression is too slow to unbalance the game. I challenge anyone to explain how it would unbalance the game for a level 5 character to have +5 stat points spread across one or more stats.

Among other things, stat bonuses are just too miserly for minor stat increases to make a major difference in play. I have always found that stat bonuses (in the 3-18 stat range) were too miserly to make a major statistical difference under the D20 system. It was always one of my criticisms of D20.

Maybe a character going from level 0 to level 1 could get more increases, to simulate him or her becoming an adventurer. But for me that would be pick two or possibly three stats instead of one stat and give each picked stat a +1 bonus. I don't see even this "bonus" increase as min-maxing, given the small increases that it allows. But it does allow you to develop your stats into your new profession.

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by Galadrin » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:39 am

HackMaster 4e had a good method of stat increase (with fractions of stats increasing and a randomly rolled rate relative to the character's class). Normally I would say go with something like that, HOWEVER, I really like DCC because it keeps everything simple. No stat increase, I say!

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by caveman » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:41 am

Here's my version:
When you level you can roll for self improvement

Self-Improvement:
ROLL d8 to determine a +1 to random ABILITY SCORE (MAX 18)
1=STR; 2=DEX; 3=CON; 4=INT; 5=PERSONALITY; 6=LUCK; 7=ROLL AGAIN; 8=Player Choice

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by jmucchiello » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:32 pm

caveman wrote:Here's my version:
When you level you can roll for self improvement

Self-Improvement:
ROLL d8 to determine a +1 to random ABILITY SCORE (MAX 18)
1=STR; 2=DEX; 3=CON; 4=INT; 5=PERSONALITY; 6=LUCK; 7=ROLL AGAIN; 8=Player Choice
Don't you mean Roll d7, this DCCRPG we don't need to roll again when a smaller die will work. :)
1=STR; 2=DEX; 3=CON; 4=INT; 5=PERSONALITY; 6=LUCK; 7=Player Choice

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Re: Stat Increases As Levels Increase

Post by caveman » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:48 pm

jmucchiello wrote:
Don't you mean Roll d7, this DCCRPG we don't need to roll again when a smaller die will work. :)
1=STR; 2=DEX; 3=CON; 4=INT; 5=PERSONALITY; 6=LUCK; 7=Player Choice
Good catch! I meant roll twice, for double stat boost.

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