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 Post subject: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

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I'm just not a big fan of them. Any chance of this changing? I'd much rather see a mechanic similar to the Warrior's Attack Dice. I really appreciate the different paths though.

I'll try them in play, before I tackle an alteration. I'll post my experiences.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:37 pm 
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Agreed, was a bit disapointed to see that thief skills were % based instead of d20 vs DC based. Seems like a lot of wasted space in rules where bonuses are given to specify +1 = +5% too. It also means in effect there are 2 skill systems, one d20 vs DC everyone else uses, and one that is % based that thieves use.

What is the chance of the party to sneak past an open door to a room in which several goblins are arguing. DC 15 AGI check for everyone except the thief, who can choose to make a standard AGI check or attempt his flat % chance. Just seems so much simpler to grant the thief a bonus to their d20 skill check that others do not gain.


Hate that my first comment is negative though because I am blown away with how awesome the rules are, and amazed at the presentation of this beta version with full, excellent art. You have outdone yourselves! In fact, on my first quick scan of the rules, it was only this and one other bit (shields only +1) that I was not a fan of.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:47 pm 
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I agree. % based checks are silly in a d20 game.

This is another opportunity to see more variable dice vs. DC like the 2nd Action Die.

I really, really, like variable dice vs. a fixed DC.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

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I agree. The thief should just have three different die modifiers for performing Nimble Deeds of Prestidigitation (Pick pockets, Open Locks, Handle Poison), Athletic Deeds of Stealth (Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Climb Walls) and Eloquent Deeds of Misdirection (Disguise Self, Forge Document, Read Languages). Basically you get d3/d2/d1 at first level and you distribute them as you like at first level and they go up as you gain levels d4/d3/d1, d5/d3/d2, d6/d4/d3, d7/d5/d3, d8/d6/d4, etc. Then it's just a matter of setting DCs correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:24 am 
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heh, now you're being silly.

buuuuuut, I see where you're going with that... I do like funky bonus dice while doing checks. There definitely should be things that only Thieves can do (pick locks) and things that everyone can do (climb.) But we'd be heading to a Skill System, which I don't want... maybe the % check IS the way to make the Thief Special?... Like Clerics and Turning. ... now I'm reevaluating the reasoning behind homogenizing of task resolutions... hmmm. No, on third thought, that chart should be filled with DCs. Way less math. Adding +this and -that for every variable, and having to multiply by 5 on occasion? That'd be too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:42 am 
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I'm not being silly (not really silly anyway). And while the names, I admit, suck, the concept is cool. In fact, see my how do you feel about thread I haven't started yet.

I want to make a Jester class (distinct from bard) that has Inept Deeds of Mirth. The possibilities are endless.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:48 am 
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Same here. Thief skills are really a sore spot in an otherwise very sleek and brilliant design. I am a fan of Classic D&D, but since this game has embraced a Skills system of sort, the thief's design is really out of place. Why would Halflings use the Skills mechanics, while the Thief has his own? This discrepancy is needless IMO. I mean, there is a Skills chapter, is it that hard to transform the Thief skills into generic attribute checks to which they get a bonus like Halflings?
I will be frank, this may make or break the game for me :(

Oh, and I noticed that the the names for high level thieves are misplaced w.r.t. alignments (e.g. Executioner should be for Chaotics.)


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:51 am 
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I agree the whole % for thieves and D20 for others doesn't make sense. I am an experienced (since BECMI) and that made me scratch my head. % is a hark back to early editions that is not required. The skill section is short and sweet and all that is needed (IMO) is for this"

"If your character’s background supports his know-
ing such a skill, you may attempt a skill check."


To be changed to this:

"If your character’s background or class supports his know-
ing such a skill, you may attempt a skill check."


With a list of what each class can expect to be able to attempt in the class descriptions
e.g.
Warriors can expect to be able to repair armour and weapons (not make) like a blacksmith or armourer; etc.
Thieves can expect to be able to hide, move silently, climb shear surface, open locks, find traps; etc.
Wizards can expect to be able to decipher arcane script or symbols; etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:21 am 
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Allowing others to perform some thief skills based on their attributes also is not a bad idea at all; thieves would still get much improved chances of succeeding, but this would help the GM adjudicate ALL types of skill checks within the same framework.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:25 am 
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% Thief skill are a huge turn off for me. Sorry but they really are especially when you have so many other elegant systems in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:25 am 
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rabindranath72 wrote:
Allowing others to perform some thief skills based on their attributes also is not a bad idea at all; thieves would still get much improved chances of succeeding, but this would help the GM adjudicate ALL types of skill checks within the same framework.


Plus this x 10000!


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 am 
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stacktrace wrote:
Agreed, was a bit disapointed to see that thief skills were % based instead of d20 vs DC based. Seems like a lot of wasted space in rules where bonuses are given to specify +1 = +5% too. It also means in effect there are 2 skill systems, one d20 vs DC everyone else uses, and one that is % based that thieves use.

Joseph and I chatted on this issue, and I raised a similar point. My suggestions included to divide the percentages by 5 and make them d20 numbers, but Joseph kind of liked the fact that percentile rolls for thieves were a bit of an homage to the early rules system.

Basically, I can play the game either way and not stress over it.

It'll be interesting to see how many folks weigh in which way with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:01 am 
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My lordy lordy...

The % Thief skill system becomes even more confusing and bizarre when you realize Halflings get a DC bonus to stealth checks and not a % chance, and then in the skills section Stealth is mentioned again as a skill that can be used by anyone.....

C'mon guys, the general feel of the system is amazing, why hold onto a subysytem that is only going to confuse people just for the sake of homage? I thought DCC was about recreating the feel and themes of appendix N, not trying to be a retro clone. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:18 am 
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And speaking of homages...the reference to 1e in the introduction is misleading, given that the framework of racial classes has been embraced; this game is definitely closer to Classic D&D than AD&D.

It might be worthwhile to at least add a short paragraph which allows mixing and matching of races with human classes (sort of multiclassing rules.) A general skill systems for the thief would work well here, since the ability of the halfling would "add" to the general abilities of the thief...


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:46 am 
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Posts: 58
I like class as race, i think it is fast and it works. Especially if 3rd party publishers start releasing other "race classes", such as Dwarf Rune-masters, or Elven Rangers etc etc at a later date.

I just think that they should pick a skill system and stick with it, not bounce around between 2 distinctly different methods. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:51 am 
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Ze Groupe wrote:
I just think that they should pick a skill system and stick with it, not bounce around between 2 distinctly different methods. :(

+d30


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:57 am 
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I would also like to see the % skills gone. Thieves should get bonus die to skill checks instead like the cast spell from scroll does.

Also, the halfling bonus to sneak and hide should be dice not a straight modifier to match up with the thief. Maybe change the static bonuses to d6, d10, d14, d16, and d20.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:19 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Ze Groupe wrote:
I just think that they should pick a skill system and stick with it, not bounce around between 2 distinctly different methods. :(

+d30
:lol: I nearly snorted my orange juice all over my keyboard on that one. Nice!

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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:19 am 
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+D30...ha!

Ironically the thief skill system was d20 based for the first year of playtesting. I just changed it a month or two ago. The thief class just wasn't quite "special" enough. I think the use of the Luck die really made a difference in that. So far the reaction to % skills in games has been love it / hate it...appears that everyone here hates it! Does ANYBODY like it? Just curious...

Also, noted elsewhere but bears repeating: thieves can make their % check in addition to the d20 check. So the above noted sneaking example, if the thief fails his % check he can ALSO make the normal Agi check. I think I forgot to actually write this anywhere in the rules though. Thank goodness for playtesters who catch things. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:23 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
Also, noted elsewhere but bears repeating: thieves can make their % check in addition to the d20 check. So the above noted sneaking example, if the thief fails his % check he can ALSO make the normal Agi check. I think I forgot to actually write this anywhere in the rules though. Thank goodness for playtesters who catch things. :)


Why though? Why make a player make 2 rolls using different subsystems and not just give him a much better chance of succeeding at one roll? I think maybe you have made a change here for the sake of "uniqueness" that just makes things more confusing with no real in game pay off.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:42 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
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Ze Groupe wrote:
Why though? Why make a player make 2 rolls using different subsystems and not just give him a much better chance of succeeding at one roll? I think maybe you have made a change here for the sake of "uniqueness" that just makes things more confusing with no real in game pay off.

+d16 :wink:

I actually think the cool thing about the "deed" die is you can tell at a glance what you are really good at depending on whether you roll one or two dice to do it. In fact, I would go so far as to add these dice to some of the saving throws: Warrior fortitude saves might be: +1/d2/d3/d4/d5 over 5 levels. Same for wizard and cleric will saves, and rogue reflex saves. Warriors are good at combat, they roll a big die and a little die. Thieves are good at skills, they roll an extra die when being roguish. Dwarves would get the warrior bonus for fortitude and a better chart against poison. (and so on)


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:02 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
+D30...ha!

Ironically the thief skill system was d20 based for the first year of playtesting. I just changed it a month or two ago. The thief class just wasn't quite "special" enough. I think the use of the Luck die really made a difference in that. So far the reaction to % skills in games has been love it / hate it...appears that everyone here hates it! Does ANYBODY like it? Just curious...

Also, noted elsewhere but bears repeating: thieves can make their % check in addition to the d20 check. So the above noted sneaking example, if the thief fails his % check he can ALSO make the normal Agi check. I think I forgot to actually write this anywhere in the rules though. Thank goodness for playtesters who catch things. :)


On one hand I understand the Percentage rolls as both an homage & a simple way for the DM to have a difficulty for the check. I do like the D100 roll being in addition to the D20 roll, but it is odd.

My simple fix, at the moment, is to use the D20+Luck Die & a bonus of +1 to +3 based on the type of activity & the Path of the Thief.

In my hear, however, the Percentage Thief skills are a HUGE turn-off, I feel I'm going to work around. Give the Thiefs some Funky Dice to make Skill Checks with! :)

Let me add that based what I understand of the DCC liason, I guess I could start working on my Thief rules 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:10 am 
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That's what I wrote up above: d6/d6/d8/d8/d10 for 3 thief abilities he's great at, d3/d4/d5/d6/d7 for 3 abilities he's pretty good at, and +1/+1/+2/+2/+3 for the rest of the thieves abilities. Simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:19 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
That's what I wrote up above: d6/d6/d8/d8/d10 for 3 thief abilities he's great at, d3/d4/d5/d6/d7 for 3 abilities he's pretty good at, and +1/+1/+2/+2/+3 for the rest of the thieves abilities. Simple.

That's in addition to the d20 roll I suppose? Do you want to compare to a DC?


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:21 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
+D30...ha!

Ironically the thief skill system was d20 based for the first year of playtesting. I just changed it a month or two ago. The thief class just wasn't quite "special" enough. I think the use of the Luck die really made a difference in that. So far the reaction to % skills in games has been love it / hate it...appears that everyone here hates it! Does ANYBODY like it? Just curious...

Also, noted elsewhere but bears repeating: thieves can make their % check in addition to the d20 check. So the above noted sneaking example, if the thief fails his % check he can ALSO make the normal Agi check. I think I forgot to actually write this anywhere in the rules though. Thank goodness for playtesters who catch things. :)

I don't think a weird mechanic makes a class more special. It should be better for what it does, not how he does it (the mechanical implementation.)


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