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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:57 am 
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Abchiptop wrote:
While I understand people's desire to play super powered murder machines, there are systems for that (4e).
People keep forgetting the "you're no hero" bit.
That being said, this game, unfortunately, won't be for everyone. I'm trying to get my 4e group interested, and those that gave played old editions are intrigued, those who play video games want to play werewolf monks (I'm know as the dm who always says yes; if you can explain and/or roll right)
this game is for the former, not the latter, and the sooner we all know that, the better

That being said, stats still need to scale with the player. You can only stay at 6 str for so long


A game is what you make of it. DCC can be played with high stat hero characters just as easily as it can with average Joes. The tag line of "you're no hero" only conveys the authors prefered playstyle. Each group defines the game the way it wants to. That is old school.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:01 am 
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Abchiptop wrote:
While I understand people's desire to play super powered murder machines, there are systems for that (4e).

People keep forgetting the "you're no hero" bit.


I can't speak for others, but I've never argued for a super powered murder machines. I just don't think it's too much to ask that the system be lightened up a bit. For me it comes down to the old saying about motivating people with carrots or sticks. This systems always quick to use the stick, but very few carrots. It's not that I don't get the idea that "your not a hero"... I'm offended that my favorite game supplement company is releasing a game system that celebrates mediocrity, while dredging up a lot of old, ugly stereotypes from the '70 in the process. It's an extremely radical departure from anything they've previously published.

Quote:
That being said, this game, unfortunately, won't be for everyone.


You're right about that, I just don't think the numbers of folks who will like it are nearly as grand as the author thinks.

Quote:
I'm trying to get my 4e group interested, and those that gave played old editions are intrigued, those who play video games want to play werewolf monks (I'm know as the dm who always says yes; if you can explain and/or roll right)
this game is for the former, not the latter, and the sooner we all know that, the better


I'm the same kind of DM... if they can think it up... and we can agree on how it will play... Fine by me. This has always been my mantra as a DM & it has occasionally bit me in the a$$ :mrgreen:, but the rewards are too great to do otherwise. (IMO) I'm not surprised your older players are more interested, those of us who remember the freedom to creation and action that came with AD&D / 2e are disappointed by the mechanics of 3.0+ that make the classes and abilities weaker and subject to the Feat System.

Incidentally: I'd let the player have the were-wolf monk... then I'd sic a pack of were-rat goblin Ninja's on them. :twisted: use MM1 (3.5) chapter 4 has all the rules for the mods. They are terrifying and only CR 3. [were-rat gobo 2HD+ 1 lvl ninja] I used 3 of'em to ghost kill a party 3x more powerful than the gobos. It was awesome. :twisted:

Quote:
That being said, stats still need to scale with the player. You can only stay at 6 str for so long


See... even you agree that something needs to be done... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Tortog wrote:
Quote:
That being said, stats still need to scale with the player. You can only stay at 6 str for so long


See... even you agree that something needs to be done... :D


The way i ran the game, i felt as well that something had to be done. However it was fairly easy to give out some stat boosts as quest rewards, and i liked the idea that only those who really wanted to be heroes and did extraordinary things despite their weaknesses could improve themselves. I didn't want an automatic "every level you get +1 on a stat" that every player would get, no matter how they played!

I had them find a Lucky Carrot (consume, +2 LUCK) & a Refined Potion of Ogre's Bladder (consume, +1 STR). Since I didn't want to litter my game with "1UP hearts" and the likes, I had a PC receive a Blessing (+1 to a stat) for his heroic deeds that would work for as long as he kept being heroic.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:56 pm 
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abk108 wrote:
... I didn't want an automatic "every level you get +1 on a stat" that every player would get, no matter how they played!


Me neither... I hate the mechanic of +1 stat every 4 levels... especially on top of 4d6 drop the lowest stats... on top of magic and spell boosts... it's ridiculous .:D

Quote:
I had them find a Lucky Carrot (consume, +2 LUCK) & a Refined Potion of Ogre's Bladder (consume, +1 STR). Since I didn't want to litter my game with "1UP hearts" and the likes, I had a PC receive a Blessing (+1 to a stat) for his heroic deeds that would work for as long as he kept being heroic.


:lol: :lol: :lol: LOVE YOUR SOLUTIONS! refined ogre bladder...
"Drink it! It'll put hair on your chest!" says the Dwarf to the wee Human...
"Ya, and everything else!" says the Human holding her/his nose, about to drink ogre pee
"Oh, goody goody!" says the Halfling, "I'm next!"
:lol: :lol: :lol:

For me it feels better to use the training rule for first level then let magic (items or spells) provide the boosts; but I think it's pretty clear that I'm old school on this point. :mrgreen: To each their own.

In truth, I don't see low stats as an intrinsic problem for any game system, provided everything else is scaled down to the new stat levels. That's where I think this system fails. The DC's are set just out of reach of the average character... resulting in PC's that flail about uselessly for most of the time. My wife has started referring to the game as "Joseph Goodman's Futility Generator."


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:13 am 
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Tortog wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: LOVE YOUR SOLUTIONS! refined ogre bladder...

(...)
...resulting in PC's that flail about uselessly for most of the time. My wife has started referring to the game as "Joseph Goodman's Futility Generator."


I forgot to mention that I allow level up only between adventures and that it takes (1d4 + previous Level) months of training to actually Level Up. Therefore I didn't want PCs to have to wait another X months of training to get a Stat Boost. That, and as i said, I don't want it to be automatic (there's a risk it would be incorporated in the time spent training for leveling up...!). I prefer to use one-shot, unque items or other storytellign devices as blessings, dark pacts and mutations to account for the seldom Stat Boost, because I alone control and dispense them.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:20 am 
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Tortog wrote:
The DC's are set just out of reach of the average character... resulting in PC's that flail about uselessly for most of the time. My wife has started referring to the game as "Joseph Goodman's Futility Generator."


This I agree is a potential real problem. DCs are similar in concept to 3rd Edition D&D, but the scale is just enough different to likely cause most DMs to set them poorly, and the game system examples don't help. In what play test we did I found a scale something like:

Checks everyone in the party will need to make (like crossing a narrow ledge, or climbing a wall using rope) DC 4-8
Checks a few key members of the party want to make where failure of any is a problem: DC 9-14
Checks where one character needs to make it to "be a hero" such as unlocking a door: DC 15-19
Checks where everyone might try, with little penalty for failure, but if one character gets it the party is advantaged: DC 20-24
Checks for actions unachievable by most mortals: DC 25+

This is very "gamist" in that it doesn't set the checks according to an absolute system, but it does seem to work pretty well in actual practice. Remember that for a player in chainmail without a dex bonus they have a 40% chance of failing a DC 4 climb check (due to the -5 penalty for wearing chain)!


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:41 am 
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meinvt wrote:
Checks everyone in the party will need to make (like crossing a narrow ledge, or climbing a wall using rope) DC 4-8
Checks a few key members of the party want to make where failure of any is a problem: DC 9-14
Checks where one character needs to make it to "be a hero" such as unlocking a door: DC 15-19
Checks where everyone might try, with little penalty for failure, but if one character gets it the party is advantaged: DC 20-24
Checks for actions unachievable by most mortals: DC 25+


Ahem! Mr Goodman!! Look over here this is a great side bar for the finished rule book!!

I take the point that magic items and the like can serve as stat boosts at later levels. I must just personally state I loath that particular device. I was using semi cursed magic items in my D&D games 20 years ago and really do not want to start giving out solely good ones to grant the fighters a +'x' strength and the Thieves +'x' Dex now... No folks not in my own particular game.

But the potion of Ogre Bladder.. now there is an item I could see working with a side effect or two mebbie (Cackles evilly) Mind you I had my current group of DCC players spend 6 hours butchering the basilisk they fought for off cuts to see if they could make anything remotly magical out of them not so long ago..

Does this mean I will have to dust off my homebrewed Alchemy rules and DCC treat them? It IS a way of getting Stat increases (at least temporarily) but is perhaps getting a wee bitty off topic here..... :P

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:07 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

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meinvt wrote:
This I agree is a potential real problem. DCs are similar in concept to 3rd Edition D&D, but the scale is just enough different to likely cause most DMs to set them poorly, and the game system examples don't help. In what play test we did I found a scale something like:


Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one out there to have spotted this. :D

Quote:
Checks everyone in the party will need to make (like crossing a narrow ledge, or climbing a wall using rope) DC 4-8
Checks a few key members of the party want to make where failure of any is a problem: DC 9-14
Checks where one character needs to make it to "be a hero" such as unlocking a door: DC 15-19
Checks where everyone might try, with little penalty for failure, but if one character gets it the party is advantaged: DC 20-24
Checks for actions unachievable by most mortals: DC 25+
...


Creepy! Those are almost exactly the same numbers I've been using... :shock:

I'm with Ducaster: this would make an excellent addition... I'd replace existing Skill Check DC's section w/ this model.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:08 am 
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fjw70 wrote:
Generous stat rolling methods have been around since the early days of 1e AD&D. Look at Gary and friends' characters from the Rogue's Gallery and you will see 17s and 18s galore and very few single digit stats.

I contend that D&D has been designed with the expectation of high stats since the 1e AD&D days.


Very much so. There's a whole section of time that people forget about in regards to D&D history. It's called "The Eighties". Beefed up stats predate 4e, even 3e. And min-maxing and "builds" predate 3e too.

What frustrates me is that what I'm specifically talking about has about as much in common with Superhero Murder Machines as salami has with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. That is to say... NOTHING!

As far as "Character Improvement", I'm proposing it as a way to mitigate the permanent stat loss incurred by Corruption, Crits, Fumbles, Getting Dropped and then the usual monster drains.

But then I read responses and critiques that are basically saying I want to see DCC have 4e stats.

It's like people AREN'T EVEN TRYING TO READ posts before clicking 'reply'. Give it a go for a year or so and come back to me with a stunned look on your faces of "AAAAAHHHHH! Now I get what you were saying."

But until then please... (A) don't think we're making this up -- it's real. (B) don't assume we're all coming from some big 4e fantasyland. Because we're not. If I wanted to play 4e, I think I could make that happen. Call me crazy. But I think I could probably find a way to play 4e with a group of roleplayers. I don't need DCC for that. My critiques of DCC are just that... critiques of DCC. Not a desire to polymorph it into a homunculus of an existing version of D&D.

In fact, I'd say that's where it's biggest faults lie -- in trying to adhere to previous versions of D&D. Where it shines is precisely where it has diverged from D&D to pay homage to its source material (Appendix N). So, why not bholmes stat roll every level or every other level? Why not mix it up a bit with hit points?

Both of those are pain points.

Not fantasies of making DCC compatible with 4e.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:15 am 
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Ducaster wrote:
I take the point that magic items and the like can serve as stat boosts at later levels. I must just personally state I loath that particular device. I was using semi cursed magic items in my D&D games 20 years ago and really do not want to start giving out solely good ones to grant the fighters a +'x' strength and the Thieves +'x' Dex now... No folks not in my own particular game


Yes. But IMO, this is a cop out.

We're saying that there is a known issue/concern with stat attrition over time. And we're saying "DM go make some stuff up" instead of addressing it or at least offering an option to address it.

That's like saying, oh, Levels don't work. And then telling people, "we know levels don't work, so just make some stuff up until they work for you". It's lazy. And pretty irresponsible. From a design standpoint.

It's also been mentioned that DCC characters are pretty much "Paper Heroes". In that they get killed pretty easily, even at high levels. I can buy that this is a "feature, not a bug". But are we saying it's so because we lack ideas to offer the options to fix it? Or because this really, truly is the vision of the game?

Because I don't see many Appendix N heroes dropping like flies once they've gotten their legs under them. And I certainly wouldn't tell King Conan that he's 30% weaker and dumber than he was at Tower of the Elephant. And most heroic arcs in Appendix N don't involve characters getting less and less competent until they can find the next magic macguffin to make them competent again. Until of course they become more incompetent and need another magic thingy. Come to think of it... that's 3e and 4e. Not Appendix N.

Coming full circle, the proposed, quasi-official "fix" to stat attrition makes it more like 4e than anything else proposed. Sing with me... "Oh Christmas Tree... Oh Christmas Tree..."

So, is the vision to revisit Appendix N and create a game that pays homage to those stories? Or is it to recreate a gonzo version of D&D and Paranoia? Because I bought the first thing. And wouldn't have bought the second. Hackmaster handles that well enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:36 am 
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smathis wrote:
Because I don't see many Appendix N heroes dropping like flies once they've gotten their legs under them. And I certainly wouldn't tell King Conan that he's 30% weaker and dumber than he was at Tower of the Elephant. And most heroic arcs in Appendix N don't involve characters getting less and less competent until they can find the next magic macguffin to make them competent again. Until of course they become more incompetent and need another magic thingy. Come to think of it... that's 3e and 4e. Not Appendix N.


Totally in agreement with you old chap! Once a character has made their first tentative steps on the road to herodom (the cha funnel in this context) they ought to become more and more "heroic" not necessarily more powerful in terms of Brand New spells/items.

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:52 am 
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meinvt wrote:
Checks everyone in the party will need to make (like crossing a narrow ledge, or climbing a wall using rope) DC 4-8
Checks a few key members of the party want to make where failure of any is a problem: DC 9-14
Checks where one character needs to make it to "be a hero" such as unlocking a door: DC 15-19
Checks where everyone might try, with little penalty for failure, but if one character gets it the party is advantaged: DC 20-24
Checks for actions unachievable by most mortals: DC 25+

This is an excellent example of what I said in the No Skill Chapter thread several months ago: viewtopic.php?p=41354#p41354


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:13 pm 
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Tortog wrote:
The DC's are set just out of reach of the average character...

Calling DC5 "easy" is the one huge, glaring mistake I see in this game.

DC5 is easy in 3rd and 4th Ed D&D because a fully-trained 1st level character can't fail (3rd Ed: 4 ranks + minimum d20 roll of 1 hits a DC5; 4th Ed: +5 bonus from training + minimum d20 roll of 1 hits DC5). A DCC RPG charcter has a +0 bonus on all skill checks unless he has good stats or is a Thief, so a DC5 represents a 25% chance of failure. That's challenging, not easy.

I use climbing as my test of any RPG skill system, since it's the one thing you can expect every character to have to do (dungeon crawling essentially being armed spelunking, after all). Would you consider a climb where you had a 25% chance of falling to be easy? A quick Google search for rock- and mountain-climbing accident rates spits up a study claiming that, over a 5 year period, 47% of mountain climbers were involved in at least one accident. How many easy climb checks do you think a mountain climber makes in 5 years? How many total climb checks? Even in the unlikely event that a typical mountain climber makes only one climb check per year, and it's an easy check, we would expect to see a 76% accident rate over 5 years if easy = 25% chance of failure.

More likely, each mountain climber makes innumerable checks with a 0% chance of failure, and makes a few more risky checks each year, but with each check's chance of failure at much less than 25%. In, say, 3rd Ed, you could model this by having a typical npc mountain climber be, for instance, a 3rd level expert with 12 Str (+1), 6 ranks in Climb (+6), and Skill Focus - Climb (+3). That gives him a +10 climb check, so he can make as many Easy (DC5) and Challenging (DC10) checks as he wants without any chance of failure. But that annual risky DC12 or DC13 check catches up with him over time.

In DCC RPG? I think the answer is to change the descriptions for the DCs. The skill check DCs should remain 5, 10, 15, and 20, but they should be descibed as "a difficult but reasonably possible task," "an extremely difficult task," "a heroic feat," and "nigh impossible." The descriptions should also mention the chances of failure: "a trained person would fail at this task 25% of the time,"* "a trained person would fail at this task 50% of the time," etc. Skill checks would be rare, as most tasks would be DC0/don't even roll affairs. Also, I think trained characters should be able to determine their odds of success (which is how our mountain climber knows to avoid the riskier ascents), so you should always tell the PCs* the DC.

*Remember, in DCC RPG RAW, if you aren't trained, you can't even try.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Ducaster wrote:
Totally in agreement with you old chap! Once a character has made their first tentative steps on the road to herodom (the cha funnel in this context) they ought to become more and more "heroic" not necessarily more powerful in terms of Brand New spells/items.


I agree as well. But I think confusion sets in when people start assuming what we're talking about when we say "heroic". Mostly I think this is because there's a lot of RPG baggage loaded on to the term. A lot of roleplayers think "heroic" means kewl powerz and three-digit hit points. That's informed, IMO, by how 3e and 4e handled it.

But I also think that's the wrong approach. "Heroic" for me means able to overcome significant obstacles to achieve a goal. It's protagonism, plain and simple (for me).

More and more hit points isn't the answer, IMO. It's better use of hit points and a more consistent way of determining them. Stats in the 20s and stat bonuses +4 and up aren't it either. For those types of characters, there are no obstacles. Nothing to overcome. But I don't think watching a character waste away level by level is it either. DCC characters should be protagonists, not meth addicts.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:02 pm 
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smathis wrote:
Ducaster wrote:
Totally in agreement with you old chap! Once a character has made their first tentative steps on the road to herodom (the cha funnel in this context) they ought to become more and more "heroic" not necessarily more powerful in terms of Brand New spells/items.


I agree as well. But I think confusion sets in when people start assuming what we're talking about when we say "heroic". Mostly I think this is because there's a lot of RPG baggage loaded on to the term. A lot of roleplayers think "heroic" means kewl powerz and three-digit hit points. That's informed, IMO, by how 3e and 4e handled it.

But I also think that's the wrong approach. "Heroic" for me means able to overcome significant obstacles to achieve a goal. It's protagonism, plain and simple (for me).


Absolutely. I think there's also a serious problem in some folks taking the, "You're no hero." bit utterly out of context. It has to be read as part of the whole section it's in:

You’re no hero.
You’re a reaver,
a cutpurse,
a heathen-slayer,
a tight-lipped warlock guarding long-dead secrets.
You seek gold and glory,
winning it with sword and spell,
caked in the blood and filth of the weak, the dark, the demons, and the vanquished.
There are treasures to be won deep
underneath, and you shall have them...

In other words, it means: You're no lily-white hero; you're a badass out for gold and glory in a gritty world!

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:48 pm 
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RAD Colin wrote:
Absolutely. I think there's also a serious problem in some folks taking the, "You're no hero." bit utterly out of context. It has to be read as part of the whole section it's in:

...

In other words, it means: You're no lily-white hero; you're a badass out for gold and glory in a gritty world!

Colin


+d7


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:40 am 
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The last time I played a game where characters flailed this uselessly was playing T.F.O.S {Teenagers From Outer Space}

hero: 1. legend of a man of great strength and courage, favored by the gods and in part descended from them, often regarded as a half-god & worshiped after his death. 2. any person, especially a man, admired for courage, nobility, or exploits, esp. in war. 3. any person, especially a man, admired for qualities or achievements & seen as an ideal or model. 4. the central male character in a novel, play, poem, etc.with whom the audience is supposed to sympathize 5. the central figure in any important event or period, honored for outstanding qualities. 6. [see] hero sandwich.

heroic: 1. of or characterized by men of godlike strength and courage 2. like or characteristic of a hero or his deeds; strong, brave, noble, powerful, etc.

both taken from the Websters new college dictionary, 3rd ed. p.632

Personally I've always found our cultures devolution of the word hero to be funny... in a depressing sort of way.

I get the "your not a hero" thing... no kidding, if you take an average character with Agility of 9 - 12 and put them in full plate they need to roll a 13 (with no bonuses most of the time; and assuming all other conditions are ideal) to make an easy ability check of 5! That's ridiculously out of whack! I was in the SCA & Ren. Faire for awhile and I've seen folks in battle ready full plate doing flips and cartwheels, etc.

BTW- I think one of the best "fixes" for this aspect is to say that a character trained in the armor has only a -1 to physical checks, while anyone using the armor without training is subject to the full penalty.


As for stat attrition: the solution seems blindingly obvious to me... don't hand out so much permanent statburn & either raise stats or lower DC's a bit; but that would (surprise :shock: ) lighten the overall tone and flavor of the game. Since no one is willing to listen on that point, the tone of the debates has switched to the "rabbit out of a hat" style fixes.

Deal with it folks... as written the game creates situations where the characters are flailing about incompetently (like kicked over turtles) for most of the time. Without serious help from the DM, the addition of classes won't change anything; because the challenges grow with level too. 8) I agree with smathis: such design flaws are lazy and irresponsible though I would add the following: "...if done accidentally; but, if done willfully by the author/designers then it is just plain mean."

I really don't think its too much to ask that an average character have better than 50/50 chance of success in performing their core functions. Average roll on d20 is 10.5 +1 for level and stats =9-12; then cleric/wizard fails to cast against a DC 12; thieves are expected to have to burn luck in order to accomplish the core function of class... necessitating a "luck return" mechanic or the class is useless. Which leaves warriors, who are terrifyingly effective... as long as all they are waring is a loin-cloth. :lol: Don't even get me started on the non-human races... suffice it to say that as written the author should save himself the printing costs...

I don't think there are as many folks grooving on the '70's retro (appendix N) flavors as there are folks who're excited by not being shackled to the Skill/Feat systems of 3e & 4e.

To the folks out there who are taking the hard-line "you are not a hero" approach to the game, I say: Good luck... 'cause you are eventually going to look up from the DM screen and see that you are alone at the table. I know this to be true... I watched it happen to some of the old school OD&D Grognards I knew who refused to adapt to the new environment of gaming.

As a long time player & fan of DCC materials I'm torn up about this: on one hand I see the "ship sailing off a cliff" as it were, and feel compelled to argue against such folly. On the other hand the collector in me thinks that after this gambit craps out it will just make my collection more valuable. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:58 am 
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Location: In a galaxy far, far, away (Missouri)
Tortog wrote:

I don't think there are as many folks grooving on the '70's retro (appendix N) flavors as there are folks who're excited by not being shackled to the Skill/Feat systems of 3e & 4e.




Tortog, I've been gaming with Castles & Crusades for years now, and that system uses neither skills nor feats.

However, I am very intrigued by this new DCC-RPG system. Granted, I've not got much play in this new system, but I can see myself and several of my friends really enjoying this system as an alternative to C&C, but not as a replacement. I must confess, I do feel drawn to a '70s retro, Appendix N, game. The players fighting against the odds in a harsh environment, with dangerous and unforgiving magic, seems a nice change from the Lord of the Rings approach we often use.

I think the DCC-RPG will wind up being like a cat. Those who love it and those hate it. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:28 am 
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Tight-Lipped Warlock

Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:52 pm
Posts: 1084
Tortog wrote:
As a long time player & fan of DCC materials I'm torn up about this: on one hand I see the "ship sailing off a cliff" as it were, and feel compelled to argue against such folly. On the other hand the collector in me thinks that after this gambit craps out it will just make my collection more valuable. :twisted:


I'm working on my own implementation of some fixes to these issues that are terribly, terribly simple. I guess that's why it frustrates me.

They'll be in my own publication to be released in the future. There are those who are going to groove with the Paranoia-esque feel of the game. But not for long, IMO. There's a reason most roleplayers I know have fond memories of Paranoia but none have ever played any long-term campaign with it. I aim to fix that with DCC. Without taking it to Lord of the Rings-esque, vanilla D&D. As a basis of comparison, what I'm working will be to DCC what Unknown Armies was to Call of Cthulhu.

Stay tuned. Working as fast as I can.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:35 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:50 am
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I will be tweaking the DCC RPG to my liking (like I do all RPGs I play). I don't think it is in that bad of shape. There are some really good ideas in this game. Most of my changes will be ignoring some of it to make it even lighter.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Location: Devon, England
Tortog wrote:
I get the "your not a hero" thing... no kidding, if you take an average character with Agility of 9 - 12 and put them in full plate they need to roll a 13 (with no bonuses most of the time; and assuming all other conditions are ideal) to make an easy ability check of 5! That's ridiculously out of whack! I was in the SCA & Ren. Faire for awhile and I've seen folks in battle ready full plate doing flips and cartwheels, etc.


I don't know if your post was aimed at me or not, but I was actually supporting most of your argument. My point is that all the folks going, "Look! It says 'You're no hero!', so therefore that means characters must suck!" are actually quoting the line completely out of context to mean something it does not. To clarify:

You're No Hero (in its correct context) means = You're one mean badass!
You're No Hero definitely does NOT mean = You're a sucky Joe Average pleb likely to die from a hangnail. ;)

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:07 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
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jamescbennett wrote:
Tortog wrote:
The DC's are set just out of reach of the average character...

Calling DC5 "easy" is the one huge, glaring mistake I see in this game.

DC5 is easy in 3rd and 4th Ed D&D because a fully-trained 1st level character can't fail (3rd Ed: 4 ranks + minimum d20 roll of 1 hits a DC5; 4th Ed: +5 bonus from training + minimum d20 roll of 1 hits DC5). A DCC RPG charcter has a +0 bonus on all skill checks unless he has good stats or is a Thief, so a DC5 represents a 25% chance of failure. That's challenging, not easy.

The thing you are forgetting is that old school there is a time unit called the turn. To climb a 100 foot wall, the DM would usually only make you roll once to fail or succeed and if you fail he might roll a d10 to see how high you were when you failed. In 3E+, you have the 6-second round and 100 ft climb is 5-10 Climb Checks depending on your speed. So failing a DC 5 25% is not so bad when you only make ONE check. It's the granularity of checks since 1999 that is making 25% look impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:24 pm 
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Tight-Lipped Warlock

Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:52 pm
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RAD Colin wrote:
You're No Hero (in its correct context) means = You're one mean badass!
You're No Hero definitely does NOT mean = You're a sucky Joe Average pleb likely to die from a hangnail. ;)

Colin


Next project... a retroclone about Sucky Joe Average called "Hangnails & Housecats".

Because... you know... only REAL roleplayers can beat a dungeon where a character has to Save-or-Die against DANDRUFF!!!

All in fun, of course.

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:00 pm 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:05 pm
Posts: 261
Location: Central Vermont
jmucchiello wrote:
The thing you are forgetting is that old school there is a time unit called the turn. To climb a 100 foot wall, the DM would usually only make you roll once to fail or succeed and if you fail he might roll a d10 to see how high you were when you failed. In 3E+, you have the 6-second round and 100 ft climb is 5-10 Climb Checks depending on your speed. So failing a DC 5 25% is not so bad when you only make ONE check. It's the granularity of checks since 1999 that is making 25% look impossible.


Except that if you have a party of five characters trying to do it, it is over 75% likely that at least one of them will fail and fall. That may be appropriate and fun, but hardly indicates "easy" to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:59 am 
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Location: Devon, England
Bob: (gestures to busy, high-speed road) Son, I want you to cross this road.
Son of Bob: I dunno, dad, it looks kinda risky...
Bob: Seriously son, it's easy!
Son of Bob: But I've calculated there's a 1-in-4 chance I'll be hit and maimed or killed...
Bob: Yep, like I said, it's easy.
Son of Bob: Dad, are you sure you know what the heck 'easy' means?
Bob: Of course! It means there's a moderate risk that you'll fail, and that you can't achieve it without some difficulty!
Son of Bob: I was adopted, wasn't I?

;)

Colin


Last edited by Colin on Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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