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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:53 pm 
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Last edited by Ogrepuppy on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:59 pm 
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ragboy wrote:
Tortog wrote:

"It's Joe Generic Man." he handed it to me and, yep... 9, 10, 11 down the line...then he said,"on the plus side, he can be anything he wants... he just won't be any good at it."


I think players (and DM's) are spoiled a little bit by popular stat generation methods (4d6drop1, "heroic array", etc), and particularly, by the inherent style dictated by 3.5. What's the old quote? AD&D is normal folks doing extraordinary things and D&D 3.X is extraordinary folks doing ordinary things. (I think that's more a swipe at the skills system, but it applies).

It begs a philosophic question, though -- If an ordinary man does something seemingly beyond his abilities, does that make him more heroic than the "super hero" who does something seemingly beneath his abilities? If both I and Superman step in front of a bullet to save a stranger, who's the more heroic? I'm going to the hospital or the morgue. Superman's going back to the Daily Planet to write up the story.

I think players protest too much when they say "this character sucks because of her low stats." As a DM, I've been fairly neutral on stat rolling methods often telling the player, "I can kill an 'All 18' character as fast as I can kill an 'all 10' character."

The character with lower stats is going to be more careful. They're going to be more conscious of risk versus reward. I think that's what I'm looking for in a S&S game. Players learn to play their characters as they are and find innovative ways to survive. The thing that makes it interesting to me is when the "Joe Generic Man" does something extraordinary. My experience so far is that these folks pull off something extraordinary every session either through creative thinking or pure luck.

All that to say that I like the idea of character attribute improvement over the life of the character, but I'm not tinkering with anything until I've seen problems with the game system that requires it. I'm lucky enough to have players that are interested enough in the game's concept to agree...so far.


I don't normally quote an entire post (I usually snip it down to the essentials), but....

Hear, hear. Bravo, and well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:17 pm 
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Last edited by Ogrepuppy on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:21 am 
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(Removed by me as no longer relevant to discussion)

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My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


Last edited by Ducaster on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:07 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:15 am 
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:| Now... wouldn't this be a good time to cast "Calm Emotions" ?? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:17 am 
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(Removed by me as no longer relevant to discussion)

My apology for previous discourtesy stands however. I hope it will be accepted.

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


Last edited by Ducaster on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:28 am 
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I genuinely was not trying to appear hostile in my posts, but I've removed them because I can see there's opportunities to misinterpret my intent.

Pleasant gaming!


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:37 am 
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abk108 wrote:
:| Now... wouldn't this be a good time to cast "Calm Emotions" ?? :roll:



Wow whats your caster level? :oops:

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:53 am 
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Blimey, I go to sleep and wake up the next day to find the thread a wasteground of deleted posts. :shock:

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:55 am 
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Ducaster wrote:
abk108 wrote:
:| Now... wouldn't this be a good time to cast "Calm Emotions" ?? :roll:



Wow whats your caster level? :oops:


I shall use a scroll :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:20 am 
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meinvt wrote:
The second case, let's look at the Dwarf with Strength of 5.

I think this is a situation where you invoke the "Note that a character’s occupation need not be determined randomly" rule from page 14 of the beta document and move this character into an occupation more appropriate for his stats.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:45 am 
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RAD Colin wrote:
Absolutely; don't forget folks, it's only a chance of raising the stat, not a guarantee, and it's a gamble that rapidly becomes riskier the higher the stat you're trying to raise already is. This isn't simply because of fear of weaker stat values or a desire for more powerful ones; it also gives characters a chance to remain on par given stat attrition.

Colin


The bolded part is the most important one to me. Stat Attrition in DCC is eminently present. With just a few playtest games, I saw 3-4 permanent stat drops at the table. Permanent. Stat. Drops.

Some way of ameliorating that which did not involve the DM pulling a rabbit out of a hat would be appreciated. I don't much care whether the PCs get a 14 or higher in their "primary attribute". But some way of tailoring the Occupation to the stat array would be nice, IMO. I've pitched to Joseph that he note a variant for "rolling up to three Occupations and picking the one that best fits the character". It's a bit more dice-rolling but, if you don't like dice, charts and randomness, DCC probably isn't the best fit.

One thing I'd like to comment on, however, is a bit of an "I Told You So". I've been harping for a long time now that DCC should have some variant rule addressing these issues that's officially supported that appears in a sidebar or appendix or somewhere.

I think we're seeing a couple of things here.

First, we're seeing people do EXACTLY what they did with early editions of D&D. 3d6 down-the-line works for some but not everyone. D&D quickly realized it wasn't a one-size-fits-all thing and offered official variants for determining stats in AD&D. DCC isn't reinventing the wheel here. It's reliving pain and failing to learn from the past. That's the I-Told-You-So.

Second, we're seeing a lot of good ideas. But we're also seeing the relatively meager fanbase for this project splinter into a lot of different directions on this issue. Which is bad, IMO. I'm not saying that there needs to be a Unified Theory of All Things DCC. But this is stat generation -- basic stuff. And it appears that almost everyone on this thread is going to do it a different way. That is an inauspicious augury.

I would rather DCC meet the community halfway with some well-reasoned (and supported) variant options. We all know that a lot of people are going to be doing some things differently from each other once the game comes out. Andy may have DR. I might be switching up how Hit Points work. But when it comes to the basics, I'd prefer it if at least the high points of variance were acknowledged.

So that way I can say to the community, I'm running DCC using [blah]. Instead of just everyone branching off before the ink has dried on the character sheet.

If people are seriously diverging on house rules before they even get past the second page in the first real chapter, I think it's a sign that the game may not be delivering as promised.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:19 pm 
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smathis wrote:
One thing I'd like to comment on, however, is a bit of an "I Told You So". I've been harping for a long time now that DCC should have some variant rule addressing these issues that's officially supported that appears in a sidebar or appendix or somewhere..

... But this is stat generation -- basic stuff. And it appears that almost everyone on this thread is going to do it a different way. That is an inauspicious augury.

<snip>

If people are seriously diverging on house rules before they even get past the second page in the first real chapter, I think it's a sign that the game may not be delivering as promised.


+d14 I fear you may be right...

An Official set of variations I think is the way to go here as well. Along with the official encouragement to house rule your own campaign from the get go (not that we needed much encouragement there I know..)

I think it is right and proper that Mr G and team have a "strongly recommended variation" that is always promoted but one thing is very clear to me if they want DCC Rpg to be a commercial success they have to allow for the 25+ years of feelings and development in RPG's in general with "official optional rules"

Stats do go down in DCC more so than in D&D I think from my early impressions. Something to compensate for this is needed Mr G. really needed!!

I think this is an excellent system overall. I am glad to support it and want it to be a big success. That I suspect is why so many post their thoughts here. Coz we want this one to be a winner!

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Ducaster wrote:
I think this is an excellent system overall. I am glad to support it and want it to be a big success. That I suspect is why so many post their thoughts here. Coz we want this one to be a winner!


No doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:20 pm 
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It could also be a winner if the optional rules are included in side notes, and then given an index number. This way a DM could tell his players "we're going to play with optional rules 12, 14, and 21." The players can then easily jump to the right page to find out he's talking about "Shields shall be splintered", "two weapon fighting variant 1" and "max HP at level 1"
(just random examples!!)..

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Too many options is a terrible thing. I don't want players to keep having to refer back to the book to check which rules are being used and their specifics. You may as well just write your own house rules rather than cluttered up the rulebook with more rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:37 pm 
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But there need to be rules for starting characters above 0 level. Not all campaigns will start at 0 level.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:14 am 
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dunbruha wrote:
But there need to be rules for starting characters above 0 level. Not all campaigns will start at 0 level.

Obviously not all campaigns will start at 0 Level - we played sessions at all levels, mostly 5th Level (because we are actually playtesting the damn game instead of wallowing in the funnel for how many months ?)

But we didn't demand magic items because we were higher level, and to be honest, that's how rules on starting higher get used - by the players of Non Casters in an attempt to make them as good in Combat and Exploration as the Spellcasters.

We agreed on wizards making a corruption roll per level to account for past failures, with extra starting cash for everyone. Simple. Game on.

I think that GUIDANCE rather than RULES is more appropriate for such options in a core book.

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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:26 am 
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RAD Colin wrote:
Blimey, I go to sleep and wake up the next day to find the thread a wasteground of deleted posts. :shock:


Sadly the Reply delete button disappears after a certain amount of time.

Let's just say I added utterly irrelevant discussion to the thread, which was thereafter replied to by another poster, and both parties decided to remove the irrelevancies.

Since then we've hugged, made friends and baked cookies together. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:15 am 
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Ogrepuppy wrote:
. . .and baked cookies together. :lol:


Ogrepuppy, it's been a long time since you shared cookies with the rest of us old timers! Don't hog the homemade cookies!


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:34 am 
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geordie racer wrote:
Too many options is a terrible thing. I don't want players to keep having to refer back to the book to check which rules are being used and their specifics. You may as well just write your own house rules rather than cluttered up the rulebook with more rules.


I think that's jumping to the conclusion that what people are asking for on the forum constitutes "too many" options.

There are only a handful of pain points that Joseph has decided not to address with DCC. Of those, at least two can be solved with a simple sidebar that constitutes no rule change whatsoever. Beyond that, there are around 7 rule variants up for consideration that, if presented in an official format, could give those who run/play DCC the opportunity of turning up/down dials to make the game their own.

As it stands, the "house rules" crowd seems to have metastasized those 7-8 rule variants into seemingly twice or three times as many separate house rules. I think it's a mistake for real pain points to be handwaved away. GG didn't do it with Thief percentile abilities. Nor with the Cleric's death spiral of incompetence.

So what about the incongruence between DCC Paper Heroes and Appendix N? Or the blacksmith who isn't strong enough to, you know, actually work as a Blacksmith? Or the precipitous decline of an Adventurer's aptitude in anything to which they can't apply a class bonus due to stat point attrition?

Enough people are butting up against those that I think it's a pain point. And I'd rather see DCC offer 3-6 suggestions on the topics than have 50 or so random variants lurking around the forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:39 pm 
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smathis wrote:
So what about the incongruence between DCC Paper Heroes and Appendix N? Or the blacksmith who isn't strong enough to, you know, actually work as a Blacksmith? Or the precipitous decline of an Adventurer's aptitude in anything to which they can't apply a class bonus due to stat point attrition?

Enough people are butting up against those that I think it's a pain point. And I'd rather see DCC offer 3-6 suggestions on the topics than have 50 or so random variants lurking around the forum.


+d24 A nice summation of the feelings of many of us I feel! Bravo

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:19 pm 
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While I understand people's desire to play super powered murder machines, there are systems for that (4e).
People keep forgetting the "you're no hero" bit.
That being said, this game, unfortunately, won't be for everyone. I'm trying to get my 4e group interested, and those that gave played old editions are intrigued, those who play video games want to play werewolf monks (I'm know as the dm who always says yes; if you can explain and/or roll right)
this game is for the former, not the latter, and the sooner we all know that, the better

That being said, stats still need to scale with the player. You can only stay at 6 str for so long


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 Post subject: Re: Character Improvement Options
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:51 am 
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ragboy wrote:
I think players (and DM's) are spoiled a little bit by popular stat generation methods (4d6drop1, "heroic array", etc), and particularly, by the inherent style dictated by 3.5. What's the old quote? AD&D is normal folks doing extraordinary things and D&D 3.X is extraordinary folks doing ordinary things. (I think that's more a swipe at the skills system, but it applies).


Generous stat rolling methods have been around since the early days of 1e AD&D. Look at Gary and friends' characters from the Rogue's Gallery and you will see 17s and 18s galore and very few single digit stats.

I contend that D&D has been designed with the expectation of high stats since the 1e AD&D days.


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