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 Post subject: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:37 pm 
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Since your Race is determined by your Occupation, and your Class is picked upon reaching 1st level. I find it odd that a dwarf can choose to be a dwarf Warrior or dwarf Dwarf. That's confusing. I'm thinking the racial classes should have a specific name: These are my suggestions:

Dwarf Fighter (because that's what they are.)
Elven Magic-user (it implies the use of magic, but they still can fight with weapons.)
Halfling Rogue (the only other generic class that fits.)

On that note...

It's going to be tough explaining why a former Elven Forester who chooses to be a Warrior doesn't get infravision or isn't immune to sleep.

I know I shouldn't be afraid of my players, but saying, "if you want to have infravision, you should have picked Elf as your class." might not fly. heh. I guess I could ask the player to develop a dedicated Elf Fighter class. (... game isnt' even out, and I'm ready hacking it...)

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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:20 am 
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Classes in DCC RPG should be just the Mighty Seven of Moldvay/Mentzer D&D: 4 human classes (thief, warrior, wizard, cleric) and 3 demi-human classes (elf, dwarf, halfling).

If you start as a human, at 1st level you can choose 1 class out of 4; if you start as a demi-human your class is automatically chosen. That's how it works. :wink:

You should just explain to your players that these are simply Class Templates: they describe a core concept linked to that race (for example, Tolkien's dwarves were simply fighters), before multiclassing was born.

As said by Joseph Goodman, in future could be released other demi-human variants, different from their core counterparts. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:02 am 
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Hamel has it, you cannot be a Dwarf Warrior or Elf Thief or Halfling Wizard. Your class is set if you start off as a demihuman, Dwarfs are always Dwarf class, all Elfs are Elf class, Halflings are all Halfling class.

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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:38 am 
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Hamel™ wrote:
If you start as a human, at 1st level you can choose 1 class out of 4; if you start as a demi-human your class is automatically chosen. That's how it works.
This is it in a nutshell.

The other "dwarf dwarf" vs "dwarf fighter" thing only comes into play if a person really hates playing a demihuman and would rather give up all racial bonuses to essentially become a human.

From the first playtest on, I've told my players that this isn't an option in my game. A dwarf is a dwarf. Period.

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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:24 am 
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finarvyn wrote:
A dwarf is a dwarf. Period.

Yet...how many existing campaign settings would be thrown out the window by this choice? I like racial classes in Classic D&D, but I also like how AD&D does things.
As it stands, the game is really only portable to the Known World setting. Anything from Greyhawk onward is essentially cut off.
Considering that AD&D is clearly referenced in the introduction to the game, this is totally misleading.
I would really, REALLY appreciate at least a paragraph or two which shows how to mix and match the human classes with the racial classes. I mean, OD&D did it in Supplement I, why not have something similar here?
Perhaps by a system of "swapping" abilities? (e.g. if I don't want a spellcasting elf) or multiclassing (e.g. a Dwarf/Cleric.)
I can see the advantages of racial classes for ease of starting playing, and as the "default". But a way to add other options is IMO necessary, if for no other reason than "paying homage to 1e".


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:48 am 
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But that is not the vibe Joe really going for.
goodmangames wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
Ze Groupe wrote:
Race as Class

Still not a fan of this. It's one of the reasons I can't get RC to the table. Too many friends think this it is stupid that all Elves are the SAME and all dwarves are the SAME.


They're not all the same. The core rules have a class called dwarf. I am waiting for the enterprising young 3PP publisher who will post some other dwarf classes: the dwarf runemaster, the dwarven defender, the dwarven assassin...

"Race as class" doesn't mean you can't also create classes that are configurations of different class/race rules. It doesn't mean every elf is the same. It just means the basic rules are a heck of a lot easier to learn for new folks, and the advanced players can continue to add complexity as they see fit.

As I said in the thread this came from, just give the race classes a new name.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:00 am 
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rabindranath72 wrote:
Considering that AD&D is clearly referenced in the introduction to the game, this is totally misleading.
I would really, REALLY appreciate at least a paragraph or two which shows how to mix and match the human classes with the racial classes. I mean, OD&D did it in Supplement I, why not have something similar here?

That's a good point, but OD&D did also weird things like unlimited progression for thieves (I can't imagine a dwarven thane's ass whipped up by a punk dwarven thief).

rabindranath72 wrote:
Perhaps by a system of "swapping" abilities? (e.g. if I don't want a spellcasting elf) or multiclassing (e.g. a Dwarf/Cleric.)
I can see the advantages of racial classes for ease of starting playing, and as the "default". But a way to add other options is IMO necessary, if for no other reason than "paying homage to 1e".

I think this has been discussed somewhere, something like giving minor access to a class' main features (you can cast spells, but not as good as the core class could be).



BTW this should be simply a starter set (having just 5 levels as in 1991's Black Box D&D).


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:18 am 
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Hamel™ wrote:
That's a good point, but OD&D did also weird things like unlimited progression for thieves (I can't imagine a dwarven thane's ass whipped up by a punk dwarven thief).

AD&D1e also had unlimited advancement for thieves (except for half-orcs, who could however advance up to the assassin's maximum level.) Given the bonuses that Dwarf (warriors) get, in DCC a dwarven thief would never be able to kill a dwarven thane.
In general, a different balancing mechanism would be necessary if demihumans were allowed unlimited advancement; the racial-class idea at least partly solves this problem.
Probably giving a bonus to Humans would solve all problems. A Luck bonus would seem more appropriate (humans have thrived simply because they are luckier!)

Quote:
I think this has been discussed somewhere, something like giving minor access to a class' main features (you can cast spells, but not as good as the core class could be).

That would be the idea, yes. A few guidelines as to what can be swapped with what would be really appreciated.


Quote:
BTW this should be simply a starter set (having just 5 levels as in 1991's Black Box D&D).

The final game will go to 10th level. Frankly I am thrilled by the idea of having a "one book" game.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:29 am 
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rabindranath72 wrote:
In general, a different balancing mechanism would be

meaningless in a game where you roll 3d6 six times in order and roll you race/class on a d100 chart. Remove the 21st century RPG concept of balance from your lexicon when dealing with DCCRPG. At least one character who survives the character funnel is going to have better stats across the board than the other characters at the table. It doesnt matter because character death is supposed to be more in the hands of player ability than character ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:14 am 
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rabindranath72 wrote:
finarvyn wrote:
A dwarf is a dwarf. Period.
Yet...how many existing campaign settings would be thrown out the window by this choice? I like racial classes in Classic D&D, but I also like how AD&D does things.
I like all kinds of features from other RPGs, but those may not be a part of this game. Keep in mind that the DCC RPG is not designed to be a "clone" and isn't designed with the specific intent of letting you run other game settings with these rules. The fact that it's not hard to convert is a definite plus, but it wasn't part of the design manifesto.

The DCC RPG is supposed to be similar in flavor to the literary works of Appendix N, and in those books demihumans (1) are rare, and (2) tend to be similar in their abilities.

We're not trying to emulate AD&D here.

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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:16 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
At least one character who survives the character funnel is going to have better stats across the board than the other characters at the table. It doesnt matter because character death is supposed to be more in the hands of player ability than character ability.
I agree 100%.

Also note that it's probable that at least one character who survives the character funnel is going to have worse stats across the board than "more deserving" characters who die. (This happened in my playtests all the time. Best not to pick a "favorite" and get attached to it too early....) :lol:

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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:28 am 
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finarvyn wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
At least one character who survives the character funnel is going to have better stats across the board than the other characters at the table. It doesnt matter because character death is supposed to be more in the hands of player ability than character ability.
I agree 100%.

Also note that it's probable that at least one character who survives the character funnel is going to have worse stats across the board than "more deserving" characters who die. (This happened in my playtests all the time. Best not to pick a "favorite" and get attached to it too early....) :lol:

I absolutely expect to be the guy (should I ever get to be a player) whose awesome two 17s character dies in the first combat while the character with the highest stat of 11 to be the one who survives the funnel.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:15 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
I absolutely expect to be the guy (should I ever get to be a player) whose awesome two 17s character dies in the first combat while the character with the highest stat of 11 to be the one who survives the funnel.


This is one of the best parts of the game. :) It's awesome how attached players get to their characters, especially the characters who are, frankly, terrible. The best parts of 0-level games are when the players are deciding who to send into a room first...because you KNOW the first couple 0-level guys into the room are probably going to die. In the early part of the game it's often a decision based on "send the lousy guys in first." But then, somehow, a couple of those lousy characters survive. By the end of the adventure the players are actively nurturing these PCs with awful stats because, by some kind of sheer luck, that plucky little serf has survived everything the dungeon has thrown at them! And usually those survivor characters end up defining a personality for themselves by the time the game is over.

To answer the specific question here: a 0-level dwarf becomes a dwarf. Not a warrior. Yes, I know this is not like AD&D...as noted above, that's not the goal of the game. Contrary to the later evolution of D&D, Appendix N is chock full of human variety but has surprisingly few demi-humans. That said, there's no reason why someone at some point can't come up with a class of "dwarven runemaster" or "dwarven defender" and so on. I'd like the choices to be simple - race and class combined as one - but that doesn't mean all dwarves are the same class. It just means that the universe of dwarf choices hasn't been fully reflected in the game yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:49 am 
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finarvyn wrote:
We're not trying to emulate AD&D here.

Fair enough. I suppose the reference to 1e in the opening is a typo then (should be 0e) :wink:


Last edited by rabindranath72 on Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:04 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:
In general, a different balancing mechanism would be

meaningless in a game where you roll 3d6 six times in order and roll you race/class on a d100 chart. Remove the 21st century RPG concept of balance from your lexicon when dealing with DCCRPG. At least one character who survives the character funnel is going to have better stats across the board than the other characters at the table. It doesnt matter because character death is supposed to be more in the hands of player ability than character ability.

? I was not speaking about ability scores. Since everybody has the same method of rolling, this is totally unconsequential to the issue of balance.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:07 am 
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rabindranath72 wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
rabindranath72 wrote:
In general, a different balancing mechanism would be

meaningless in a game where you roll 3d6 six times in order and roll you race/class on a d100 chart. Remove the 21st century RPG concept of balance from your lexicon when dealing with DCCRPG. At least one character who survives the character funnel is going to have better stats across the board than the other characters at the table. It doesnt matter because character death is supposed to be more in the hands of player ability than character ability.

? I was not speaking about ability scores. Since everybody has the same method of rolling, this is totally unconsequential to the issue of balance.

And just as many characters with a 5 luck getting -2 on ALL Saves are hurt by chart as the characters with 16 luck get +2 on ALL Saves. See it does balance out in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:11 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
And just as many characters with a 5 luck getting -2 on ALL Saves are hurt by chart as the characters with 16 luck get +2 on ALL Saves. See it does balance out in the long run.

So what's the purpose of Luck? (or everything else at this point.) Ditch all classes and everything else since everything "balances out" in the long run :shock: :roll: :lol:

Just give a flat-out bonus to Humans, and see if it has an impact or not! :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:18 am 
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Choosing a class a 1st level is the FIRST choice you make about your character that is not dictated directly by die rolls. (Occupation is optionally not rolled. But I can imagine folks min/maxing that occupation chart already.)

The point is there is nothing unbalanced about some birth augurs being better than others. Some of the Mercurial Magic effects are better than others too. Is that "unfair"? The concept of balance assumes that the game is supposed to be fair. It isn't. It's a meat grinder. Only the fittest survive, whether by strength of arms, quickness of wits, or plain old dumb luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:47 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Choosing a class a 1st level is the FIRST choice you make about your character that is not dictated directly by die rolls. (Occupation is optionally not rolled. But I can imagine folks min/maxing that occupation chart already.)

The point is there is nothing unbalanced about some birth augurs being better than others. Some of the Mercurial Magic effects are better than others too. Is that "unfair"? The concept of balance assumes that the game is supposed to be fair. It isn't. It's a meat grinder. Only the fittest survive, whether by strength of arms, quickness of wits, or plain old dumb luck.

No, the game need not be "fair" for one option to be definitely better than another. "Dumb luck" can get a boost if you get a +1 to ALL saves, vs. a +1 to only 1 save. As a matter of fact, in the same condition, one character is going to be better than another.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:56 am 
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Quote:
As it stands, the game is really only portable to the Known World setting


I was shocked at this.

Frankly I do not see any of the worlds as being all that portable. The feel is all wrong! At least for me.

This game BEGS for its own setting of my creation! A small one with swords and sorcery feel not a D&D one.

It has the feeling of being like D&D in many ways but VERY different in a great deal of things. I would think the world should reflect that.

A D&D world just transferred over would be a bad fit I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:02 am 
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rabindranath72 wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
Choosing a class a 1st level is the FIRST choice you make about your character that is not dictated directly by die rolls. (Occupation is optionally not rolled. But I can imagine folks min/maxing that occupation chart already.)

The point is there is nothing unbalanced about some birth augurs being better than others. Some of the Mercurial Magic effects are better than others too. Is that "unfair"? The concept of balance assumes that the game is supposed to be fair. It isn't. It's a meat grinder. Only the fittest survive, whether by strength of arms, quickness of wits, or plain old dumb luck.

No, the game need not be "fair" for one option to be definitely better than another. "Dumb luck" can get a boost if you get a +1 to ALL saves, vs. a +1 to only 1 save. As a matter of fact, in the same condition, one character is going to be better than another.

Then you also have to throw out the Mercurial Magic table because some 1st level character is going to get d30 on magic missile and be too powerful compared to the guy who rolls d16 on his magic missile.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:04 am 
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One odd thing about the racial classes is how a zero level elf suddenly gains iron vulnerability and infravision upon leveling up to 1st.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:15 am 
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LOL +d5


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:28 am 
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stacktrace wrote:
One odd thing about the racial classes is how a zero level elf suddenly gains iron vulnerability and infravision upon leveling up to 1st.


Yeh. Unfortunately the more and more i read the system the more i find little oddities like this. :(

I don't need or want my FRPG's to be in any way "realistic", but i at least want them to be a little believable and consistent within themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Demi-human classes...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:40 am 
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I think the example of an elf's infravision and iron vulnerability speak to the need for an experienced judge in the game. I don't see any reason why a judge wouldn't allow a demihuman to have the abilities purely based on race (not just racial training) if a player asks.

Maybe the full book will include such info. If not, just allow it. I can't see the players complaining if judge allows it and maybe that darkvision will lure that elf in where he might not otherwise go. Good for the funneling.


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