Wizard Spell checks

[brogan_a]

Hi, we have play tested the rules a bit and I ran a PUG group through the module at RPG day. Has anyone brought up the point about Wizard spell checks being so high at upper levels that they basically never lose a spell? Our wizard found and figured out the hour glass at the top of the pit in the module, so that gave him an additional + 2 on spell checks, I love how magic works but I think there needs to be an additional level of difficulty involved. Any result from a 1 to 11 is a failure and you lose the spell. I would suggest at higher levels that a new result say 12 to 15 would mean just a failure. With being able to burn luck unless you are really unlucky you will rarely lose a spell at 5th level. At least compared to the Cleric, which is on a self-destruct timer with every turn, lay on hands, and spell counting against him. He for sure will lose the ability to cast after a while, the mage not so much.
Another issue is that low level spells become high level spells at upper levels. So really the first level magic missile does radically more damage the higher your spell check is, which increases with level. I'm sure this was intentional, but I am not sure to what degree it was meant to be like this. Just some thoughts. BTW, we love the game and hope to help make it better!

- Andy Brogan

[smathis]

Yup. On both counts.

I don't know if higher level wizards need higher levels of failure on the low level spells. But I think the spells do need to be brought back into line with their level. Some of the high rolling effects are crazy insane. I can't see anyone risking the loss of a spell when they can get that kind of bang from Sleep and Magic Missile.

Either that or just bring them all down to one level and be done with it. Make it a straight DC 15 to cast a Wizard spell. DC 13 to cast a Cleric spell. And do away with the concept of spell level entirely.

Not a popular option, for sure. But it would solve a lot of issues.

[meinvt]

Either that or just bring them all down to one level and be done with it. Make it a straight DC 15 to cast a Wizard spell. DC 13 to cast a Cleric spell. And do away with the concept of spell level entirely.

Not a popular option, for sure. But it would solve a lot of issues.

I'm waiting to see the example higher level spells, but I personally really like this approach.

Almost all higher level spells could have lower effects as well. Invisibility could have an obscuring effect, a simple invisibility effect, a persistent invisibility effect and even on to obscuring whole groups of characters depending on success. Likewise you could have a feather fall, levitate, sky walk, fly and group effect for fly. Polymorph could be as simple as alter self, then change shape limited to non-magical four limbed man-sized creatures (like a large wolf or small bear), then change of size as well (so become a crow or elk), then more or fewer limbs (become a giant constrictor serpent), and on to magical creature forms.

Of course, I'm also a fan that the bonus to spell casting be by class die instead of straight caster level (so you might have a d7 at fifth level). That would allow the 13 DC without guaranteeing never-fail spells for high level wizards.

[smathis]

Almost all higher level spells could have lower effects as well. Invisibility could have an obscuring effect, a simple invisibility effect, a persistent invisibility effect and even on to obscuring whole groups of characters depending on success. Likewise you could have a feather fall, levitate, sky walk, fly and group effect for fly. Polymorph could be as simple as alter self, then change shape limited to non-magical four limbed man-sized creatures (like a large wolf or small bear), then change of size as well (so become a crow or elk), then more or fewer limbs (become a giant constrictor serpent), and on to magical creature forms.

Exactly!

Of course, I'm also a fan that the bonus to spell casting be by class die instead of straight caster level (so you might have a d7 at fifth level). That would allow the 13 DC without guaranteeing never-fail spells for high level wizards.

Nice. I like that idea very much. Why should Warriors get to have all the fun with the funky dice?

[finarvyn]

Another issue is that low level spells become high level spells at upper levels. So really the first level magic missile does radically more damage the higher your spell check is, which increases with level.

Isn't that the way it works in various editions of D&D? Magic missile, for example, gives more and more missiles as one advances in level so that the same low-level spell gets progressively more powerful as the caster rises in level.

The difference here is that instead of automatically getting stronger, the spell is more random. This means that with awesome dice rolls you might get more "bang for the buck" early on. Or, as you progress in character levels you get better bonuses so your die rolls should gradually get better even with average success.

Similar endgame, slightly different pathway.

[abk108]

Has anyone brought up the point about Wizard spell checks being so high at upper levels that they basically never lose a spell?

Hmm... how exactly? I mean, a INT 14 Wizard would get his level+1 to spell checks. At level 5 you still have a beefy 25% chance of losing a first level spell upon casting. At level 8 this goes to just 10%, but that's fine because if you survive to level 8 you're basically one of the strongest wizards around! I wouldn't expect Gandalf (which I think of as level 10) to fail casting a "Torch" spell much O.o
Even if you have exceptional INT, like 17, this changes the odds only by 5%.

If higher level spells have a different result table, where failure&loss of the spell is at 1-13 at level 2, 1-15 at level 3 etc, this gives even the level 8 WIZ i mentioned before a 25% of failing a level 3 spell...

Long story short, I think the magic chapter is the most successful, and needs very little o no tweaking at all. Maybe some parts need to be more clear but that's all.

[smathis]

Similar endgame, slightly different pathway.

Not really. A Wizard at high enough level to cast Meteor Storm or Call Lightning is never going to be faced with the situation where Magic Missile is just flat out the better spell.

So, while 1st level spells scale, their scaling is much more moderate than the DCC tables -- where a character with a high enough casting roll on Magic Missile can essentially launch an ICBM at someone.

Use of lower level spells by a high level Magic-User in D&D is a more situational thing -- dependent on the context of the encounter. In DCC, that's not the case. If I had Magic Missile and Scorching Ray, I WOULD NEVER USE SCORCHING RAY. There would be no need to. Magic Missile is better in every way.

That's not the case at all in other versions of D&D.

[ogbendog]

I had a thought the other day about corruption. evidently people are concernedthat higher level wizard will be monstrs.

what if, corruption is permanent if you use a d20. it' lasts a month if you use a d16, it lasts a week if you use a d12.

so, if you have really good bonuses, you'd use a lower die, that'll make the insane success less.

[abk108]

I had a thought the other day about corruption. evidently people are concernedthat higher level wizard will be monstrs.

what if, corruption is permanent if you use a d20. it' lasts a month if you use a d16, it lasts a week if you use a d12.

so, if you have really good bonuses, you'd use a lower die, that'll make the insane success less.

Meh, I think that giving a Wizard a chance between adventures to shake off a newly gained Corruption with a Will Save is the most effective way to have both Corruption affect the game (during the adventure it is gained...) but limiting the permanent stacking effects that eventually a high level WIZ will suffer.