Options for non-mages

[ogbendog]

One of the fun things about playing wizards, is that as you go up in level, you get more / new abilities; higher level spells, and/or more of them. This is one reason I liked playing wizards in the old days, rogues and fighters only got more HP, more tohits, better theif abilities; they got more of the same, nothing new. And each figher is the same as the last one you played, same abilities, with a wizard you can go for different spells

It was also mentioned in another thread the originally, the fighter / fighting man, included knight, barbarian, soldier, etc. Then they came out with Paladin class, barbarian class, etc, making the original less appealing.

Suggestion:
Add more Mighty Feats of Arms to Warrior, Dwarf, and halfling, BUT, they only start with some number of them, and pick more as they advance. Add ones to let you get flavor to your class, Mounted Combat (knight), Rage (Barbarian), Woodland Combat (ranger), etc. This negates the need for such specialized classes, and lets a party have more than one warrior, each with it's one cool moves.

Add combat styles: Sword and Board, dual weilding, single wpon, two hander. Halflings automatically start with dual weilding, and dwarves automatically start with sword and sheild. Maybe you pick one at first level, and can pick another at 5th or so?

For Thiefs, maybe let them pick a crit? For example, they can pick any crit equal to their level x4. So a 1st level thief picks #4 for the free attack. Another might pick #3 for the big damage bonus. If/when they make their tohit roll by some amount.. maybe if they roll a real crit, a 20, then they can choose from their Favored crits? This works a bit better for the cool special effects crits, like knocking prone, or disarm... mabye that's the way to go. They can pick an effect, Knock Prone, Disarm, Disorient (foe's next attack is at -2), stuff like that.

[Dreamslinger]

Suggestion:
Add more Mighty Feats of Arms to Warrior, Dwarf, and halfling, BUT, they only start with some number of them, and pick more as they advance. Add ones to let you get flavor to your class, Mounted Combat (knight), Rage (Barbarian), Woodland Combat (ranger), etc. This negates the need for such specialized classes, and lets a party have more than one warrior, each with it's one cool moves.

So you want to gimp MDoAs for first level fighters so that you have something to give them at later levels?


By using higher target numbers for the MDoA effect as shown in Judges section you do get MDoAs that have bigger effects as you level.

[ogbendog]

No, I don't want to gimp them. A warrior currently starts with 7

I suggest having a longer list, maybe 15 or 20. They can pick 7 start with, plus a style, and get more as they advance.

A wizads spells get better as the wizard advances, and the wizard get's new spells
but a warior, sure his MFoA get better, but doesn't get new ones.

[Dreamslinger]

No, I don't want to gimp them. A warrior currently starts with 7

I suggest having a longer list, maybe 15 or 20. They can pick 7 start with, plus a style, and get more as they advance.

A wizads spells get better as the wizard advances, and the wizard get's new spells
but a warior, sure his MFoA get better, but doesn't get new ones.

Those 7 are examples. With MDoAs "if you can dream it you can do it".

[reverenddak]

Those "seven" MDoA are just suggestions, examples. MDoAs are intended to make Warriors (and Dwarves) special. Sharing them would dilute the class.

[meinvt]

No, I don't want to gimp them. A warrior currently starts with 7.

Well, I'm convinced that this section that says "the following examples" in the judge's rule section needs to be rewritten to say: A Mighty Deed of Arms can be whatever you want it to be. In order for the judge to help balance the impact on play, here are seven EXAMPLES of the sorts of effects a character can produce. Players are strongly encouraged to come up with other ideas and Dungeon Masters should err on the side of allowing any demonstration of martial prowess.

[jmucchiello]

This wasn't explicit enough?

Generally speaking, Mighty Deeds of Arms are grouped into seven general categories. The guidelines that follow should help the judge decide which benefits to apply to a high attack die roll.

Creative players will certainly come up with new Deeds. Encourage and allow this.

[GnomeBoy]

Jumping on a giant frog to be able to get some altitude in order to hit some flying skull-things was an early, in-play example of one MDoA.

So there are 8 things they can do...

[ogbendog]

True, that is what it says.

My idea is, instead of having 7 and making GMs make up the rest, have a ton of them, and let them pick the ones they know.

the idea being, again, to give fighters the same soft of "I level up, I get a new ability" feeling that a wizard has.

[meinvt]

My idea is, instead of having 7 and making GMs make up the rest, have a ton of them, and let them pick the ones they know.

To me the point is that there are not 7 with the GM making up the rest. There are infinite varieties and it is up to the player to make them up on the fly and the GM to then rule on it, using the seven examples as guidelines. So far I have seen:

"I want to strike the crocodile with my spear and use it like a pole vault to jump over the open water."
"I'm going to spin my spear around to strike two of them with one blow."
"As I strike the opponent I'll use the back end of my spear to lever my fallen ally out of the cave mouth so she falls to the waiting help below."

among others that are more similar to the examples.

I can't imagine (and wouldn't want a game) where a player would want to choose the "lever a fallen ally with the end of a weapon while striking an opponent" deed on their pre-determined list. The whole point is that they can make this stuff up in the moment to attempt to do whatever is possible.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to offer warriors some additional boons to make going up in levels more interesting. I just don't think creating lists of what Mighty Deeds you "know" is the way to go.

I would be okay with giving an equipment or situation specific bonus to Mighty Deed attempts. For example, "Gets a +1 bonus to Might Deed attempts made with his Long Bow."
I could also see relief from some of the high penalties such as for wearing armor, hitting allies firing missiles into combat, presumably mounted combat actions, two weapon fighting reduced dice.
Finally, I think it would be okay to give a chance for certain classes to occasionally gain ability scores as a level up bonus, as a distinction from other classes (so perhaps Warriors get this chance while Wizards and Clerics don't).

[ogbendog]

that could be interesting

maybe let the pick "favored Mighty deeds" or something; they get a bonus with some of them.

the other half of my idea was to add mighty deeds to model the variety of roles a warrior can have. Mounted Combat for knight, Woodland combat for a ranger, rageing, etc.

[bholmes4]

Please no.

Meinvt has some decent ideas but we don't need this.

[geordie racer]

Please no.

Meinvt has some decent ideas but we don't need this.

I agree, defining lists just sets limits

[ogbendog]

then why are their spell lists

[jmucchiello]

Because it's a constructed spell system not a build-your-own spell system. This is so you don't game the system to make the best spell with the fewest pitfalls.

[abk108]

Please no.

Meinvt has some decent ideas but we don't need this.

I agree, defining lists just sets limits

+1

and I think that Warriors will be different from each other; one has 16 STR and uses and Axe, another 17 DEX and uses a Bow... they'll have a different approach to fights for sure.

Getting a list of powers/feats/deeds for each class would be horrible. It would be like... DCC 4E. I don't want to see that. Please.

[reverenddak]

Yeah, no. It's unfortunate that Wizards (and Elves) only have access to 716 spells. But for a Warrior (or Dwarf) to be limited to 15, 20 or even 100 or so Mighty Deeds would be a shame.

I like that the 7 example MDoA are just that, examples.

A 3rd Party book on 716 MDoAs would, on the other hand, be totally cool.

[geordie racer]

Yeah, no. It's unfortunate that Wizards (and Elves) only have access to 716 spells.

Aren't 716 enough ? The more spells - the more get unused - I see this with feats in 3.5/Pathfinder - players rely on the same old tactics, their optimized chain of feats, otherwise it slows the game to a crawl as they pore over the list of spells.

But for a Warrior (or Dwarf) to be limited to 15, 20 or even 100 or so Mighty Deeds would be a shame.

The amount of MDoAs available is only limited by the situation, the player's imagination and DM's approval.

[abk108]

Yeah, no. It's unfortunate that Wizards (and Elves) only have access to 716 spells.

Aren't 716 enough ? The more spells - the more get unused - I see this with feats in 3.5/Pathfinder - players rely on the same old tactics, their optimized chain of feats, otherwise it slows the game to a crawl as they pore over the list of spells.

I think he was being ironic.