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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

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moes1980 wrote:
I didn't consider burning luck to help with a disable traps skill. I guess a low level thief would have to burn about that much to get a solid bonus to make him comfortable at disarming a trap (giving him at level one, a +25 to 100% bonus. Although, I probably would have burned three, giving me 15 to 60% bonusfor a total of about 35% to 95% chanch of success). But than again, the thief can heal I think one luck point per level per day of resting so they can afford to spend it a little more liberally. But I still doubt that he can spend 5 points all session long getting those bonuses. It also makes a difference if the game was a one shot game or somewhat of an ongoing game.


Remember that a thief works like this:

1. Luck is applied AFTER the dice are rolled, so a their only needs to 'burn' enough luck to make the check, if they fail the % roll.
2. Thief rolls a luck die [based on level] for each point or luck burned (d3, d4, d5, etc...)

A thief is supposed to burn luck in doing their thief checks. If they are not burning it for that, then they become super fighters, never miss a save, etc...

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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:03 pm 
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geordie racer wrote:
You've dropped down to 2 Str, man up and go questing for the elixir that would restore it. Or change your tactics so you don't only rely on Str all the time. If it's Luck - get bonded to some wizard's Patron and try for a boon - every bit helps.

Use it to seed further adventure rather than blubbing cause you're not uber-optimal all through your adventuring career. Take the knocks and search for solutions.


Meh... That sounds more like tedium than actual fun. There is only so much "them's the breaks" fatalism that I can take in my pretend time.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:53 pm 
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Tight-Lipped Warlock

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geordie racer wrote:
I see no reason why the cascading effect and the 'pick one stat to try to roll over on 3d6 after level up' can't work together.


Yup. We agree. See bolded below.

smathis wrote:
It's not about being "uber-optimal". It's about giving characters the capacity to stay on the treadmill of adventuring. I don't like keeping the modifier the same, just for the record. But I am vehemently in favor of bholmes' suggestion for stat increases per level. I think you could give out one of those every other level and STILL not have a 10th level character whose stats are higher than his 0-level self.


My response was addressing the idea that stat increases were part of a munchkin meme to optimize and min-max a character out to a 48 in his primary, secondary and ultimary stats.

I got no beef with the cascading thing. DCC characters are so simple. It's not like 3e where a drop in attribute or level would take 10-15 minutes of erasing and writing, erasing and writing.

EDIT: Ugh. Hit "Edit" instead of "Quote". :cry:


Last edited by smathis on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:57 pm 
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smathis wrote:
Haven't we learned anything from what happened to D&D?

I see no reason why the cascading effect and the 'pick one stat to try to roll over on 3d6 after level up' can't work together.

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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:39 pm 
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A Strange Aeon wrote:
I love this. I'd even let this be used against being hit, or basically to modify almost any die roll. Yes, you can avoid being hit by the spear trap. Yes, you may be able to avoid dying and only end up spending 1 luck point. But it could cost you over half your luck, or more, and either way, the decision you're making has a potentially steep cost. Obviously, if you run out of luck on the d6 and you end up with 0, you've essentially killed the character anyway. Maybe instead of getting hit by the spear, he has a sudden brain aneurysm and collapses anyway.


I like this but not sure I want it applied to all situations. For a "save or die" situation where the player had a lapse of judgement, yes! For a drawn out combat that they should have avoided, no.

Imagine it's late, everyone is tired and the PCs decide it's a good idea to go down that dark hallway that peculiarly has an inch of dust on it. I look at them puzzled but they continue to push forward, right in to my trap-of-instant-death. Now I am torn. I could be a jerk and let them die or I could be soft and let them live, afterall they're tired.

Or maybe I let them roll d6 against their luck.

They still take a massive hit to their character (so I don't feel guilty) and they don't lose their favourite character due to tiredness (and they are happy). I think I can live with this...


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:39 pm 
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echoota wrote:
geordie racer wrote:
You've dropped down to 2 Str, man up and go questing for the elixir that would restore it. Or change your tactics so you don't only rely on Str all the time. If it's Luck - get bonded to some wizard's Patron and try for a boon - every bit helps.

Use it to seed further adventure rather than blubbing cause you're not uber-optimal all through your adventuring career. Take the knocks and search for solutions.


Meh... That sounds more like tedium than actual fun. There is only so much "them's the breaks" fatalism that I can take in my pretend time.


The trick here is that the Wizard has the CHOICE to burn the physical stats.
A character has the CHOICE to burn luck.

If you do not like the math involved with a really SIMPLE adjustment of a hand-full (1-5 spots on the sheet for STR --- which is a big one), then do not do the spell burn.

Ability scores jumped all over the place in 3e/4e so adjustments are second nature to most newer players. And yes, in 1e/2e we had adjustments when ability scores drained. But it did not happen all that often.

A normal character will only modify luck scores when he burns luck. Makes him think twice about playing with the fickle mistress of Luck. Only use it for when you HAVE to have it.

A wizard is special because of spell burn, but it is an optional ability of the Wizard and is only used sparingly in a long term adventure.

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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:08 pm 
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I've been thinking about how to make Luke usage more appealing to players.
So far, not a single one of my players has spent any of their luck. It may be that I've only run a few games at 0-1st level and they do not wish to waste the stat, but there may be more to it.

I'm thinking of allowing a luck roll at the end of each session to see if the gods have favored a character with any luck gain instead of making the regaining of luck purely up to GM arbitration.

I haven't nailed down any specifics but I was thinking a straight luck roll on a d20 with the DC being the character's luck score. Luck modifiers and expenditure would of course not enter into this roll as the currency of fate cannot be spent on itself.

A successful roll would award the character with 1 point of permanent luck.

I find this solution appealing as it has the appearance of a game mechanic but keeps itself outside of actual gameplay and therefore away from houserule "balancing". It also requires a bit of "true" luck.

Does this sound workable and fun? Should there be modifiers applied or perhaps alternate die types based on a character's luck score? Am I insane for even considering this? Do you like bacon?


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:20 pm 
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TwystedSpyder wrote:
I've been thinking about how to make Luke usage more appealing to players.
So far, not a single one of my players has spent any of their luck. It may be that I've only run a few games at 0-1st level and they do not wish to waste the stat, but there may be more to it.

I'm thinking of allowing a luck roll at the end of each session to see if the gods have favored a character with any luck gain instead of making the regaining of luck purely up to GM arbitration.

I haven't nailed down any specifics but I was thinking a straight luck roll on a d20 with the DC being the character's luck score. Luck modifiers and expenditure would of course not enter into this roll as the currency of fate cannot be spent on itself.

A successful roll would award the character with 1 point of permanent luck.

I find this solution appealing as it has the appearance of a game mechanic but keeps itself outside of actual gameplay and therefore away from houserule "balancing". It also requires a bit of "true" luck.

Does this sound workable and fun? Should there be modifiers applied or perhaps alternate die types based on a character's luck score? Am I insane for even considering this? Do you like bacon?


I think that works out alright--someone else had mentioned a similar mechanic at level-up for stat increase, which also seemed alright to me. It allows those who have a lot of a particular stat to not have a great shot of it being beneficial, but those with a really low stat would tend to get a tiny increase. I also don't think a system like this would detract from the Luck specialness of halflings and thieves.

The only issue I could see would be that 1 point of Luck isn't that useful in the grand scheme of things. It represents a single 5% bonus to a d20 roll, basically, unless you're doing a house-rule where you can do the automatic success and risk losing 1d6 worth. Burning 5 permanent luck would be a case where by natural mechanics, you'd only get it back in 5 levels, and that's a maybe. I think DM intervention via patrons, magics, and dungeon features would still be necessary for Luck to be limited enough to not be over-powered, but not so rare that it's never spent.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:23 pm 
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I've seen similar comments about other systems (such as FATE) and it can really come down to groupthink. You need to make sure you are using an appropriate carrot and stick.

Carrot: As DM make it clear that the players will get luck on some regular enough basis for spending it to be reasonable. I'm thinking at least 1 point per session will be awarded, and more for particularly cool successes. Reward the players with luck for getting into the sorts of situations they need luck to get out of. It will promote spending, and fun stories.

Stick: Put the characters in situations where the choices are to spend luck or die. The classic example is "Save vs. Death" saving throws. It can also be pre-emptive. Once the characters in my adventure realized that one of them died every time the enemy-half ogre got a chance to take a swing in combat they all started using luck to make sure they both hit him and did extra damage.

I really think it is up to the DM to encourage luck use. Change the bonus just bends the game power curve, but won't necessarily induce the behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:40 am 
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A Strange Aeon wrote:
I think that works out alright--someone else had mentioned a similar mechanic at level-up for stat increase, which also seemed alright to me. It allows those who have a lot of a particular stat to not have a great shot of it being beneficial, but those with a really low stat would tend to get a tiny increase. I also don't think a system like this would detract from the Luck specialness of halflings and thieves.


It does. bholmes4's suggestion for stat increases per level was to have the player roll 3d6. If they roll over their stat, then their stat goes up by one. The idea was that a player would roll for one stat either every level (or every other level), alternating between one the player chose and one that was randomly chosen.

I think the same sort of thing could apply to Luck, even on an "every session" basis. But perhaps add in a bit of a gamble where Luck is permanently reduced by 2 points if the roll comes up a three-eyed snake (1-1-1).

A Strange Aeon wrote:
The only issue I could see would be that 1 point of Luck isn't that useful in the grand scheme of things. It represents a single 5% bonus to a d20 roll, basically, unless you're doing a house-rule where you can do the automatic success and risk losing 1d6 worth. Burning 5 permanent luck would be a case where by natural mechanics, you'd only get it back in 5 levels, and that's a maybe. I think DM intervention via patrons, magics, and dungeon features would still be necessary for Luck to be limited enough to not be over-powered, but not so rare that it's never spent.


And this is the other side of the coin. Luck's benefit doesn't offer a good value for its cost. I have no idea what to do about that. Because on one hand it risks overpowering the Thief and Halfling and, on the other, it risks situations such as have been listed here -- where Luck becomes this "nice idea" mechanic that rarely gets used due to its poor value.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:47 am 
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meinvt wrote:
Carrot: As DM make it clear that the players will get luck on some regular enough basis for spending it to be reasonable. I'm thinking at least 1 point per session will be awarded, and more for particularly cool successes. Reward the players with luck for getting into the sorts of situations they need luck to get out of. It will promote spending, and fun stories.

Stick: Put the characters in situations where the choices are to spend luck or die. The classic example is "Save vs. Death" saving throws. It can also be pre-emptive. Once the characters in my adventure realized that one of them died every time the enemy-half ogre got a chance to take a swing in combat they all started using luck to make sure they both hit him and did extra damage.


Good suggestions on both Carrot and Stick. I'd be more likely to award Luck during the game for fumbles, characters achieving stated goals and players adding depth to the game by pursuing interesting subplots or character flaws. Problem is: there's no way of knowing what the player wants to do with their character regarding goals and flaws.

Not that I want them added to the game mechanically. I don't think that's necessary. But this sort of thing needs to be spelled out in the Judge's section. Not everyone is going to connect-the-dots. For a lot of people, Luck (as is) will just be what's printed on the page.

I'd be more likely to award Luck for fumbles because (A) players who are coming up with amazing successes are either spending Luck or not needing it that much and (B) players dropping the fumbles left and right can get disgruntled -- and often this angst is misdirected at the game. Giving them "something" to help insure that their future will be brighter is a better mechanic, IMO, than awarding players who all already getting spotlight enough from their actions.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:30 pm 
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TwystedSpyder wrote:
Does this sound workable and fun? Should there be modifiers applied or perhaps alternate die types based on a character's luck score? Am I insane for even considering this? Do you like bacon?

The above sums up my own feelings in suggesting this as an option...

How about at the end of the adventure the players can opt to trade some of there earned XP for a Luck increase instead....

(Ducks as the stones start flying)

No I mean think about it. DCC works best at Levels 3-9, here we have an evil mechanic that Keeps players from levelling up to fast. It would work in combination with GM awards as they see fit, but allow the players (I hope) some surcease that the odd point of luck they burn can come back to them at there choice albeit at a price.

This luck add only applies to the current luck score of a character and can ONLY be done at the conclusion of and adventure. So the thief/hobbit that burned there luck below its standard level during the final phase of an adventure really can't benefit from it; hopefully preventing them from becoming Luck burning monsters.

Ok go ahead and stone me...

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My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Ducaster wrote:
TwystedSpyder wrote:
Does this sound workable and fun? Should there be modifiers applied or perhaps alternate die types based on a character's luck score? Am I insane for even considering this? Do you like bacon?

The above sums up my own feelings in suggesting this as an option...

How about at the end of the adventure the players can opt to trade some of there earned XP for a Luck increase instead....

(Ducks as the stones start flying)

No I mean think about it. DCC works best at Levels 3-9, here we have an evil mechanic that Keeps players from levelling up to fast. It would work in combination with GM awards as they see fit, but allow the players (I hope) some surcease that the odd point of luck they burn can come back to them at there choice albeit at a price.

This luck add only applies to the current luck score of a character and can ONLY be done at the conclusion of and adventure. So the thief/hobbit that burned there luck below its standard level during the final phase of an adventure really can't benefit from it; hopefully preventing them from becoming Luck burning monsters.

Ok go ahead and stone me...


I like this idea--EXP can be spent on things other than just leveling up, a bit like how GP in the old Warhammer Quest boardgame needed to be spent to gain a new level, but also was spent on equipment.

I don't know how thematic trading XP for Luck is, but it seems like a reasonable mechanic, since XP has always been rather nebulous anyway. And I'm not sure from your post--do you mean PCs could only increase their luck above its baseline? And is there a limit per end of adventure of, let's say, 100 xp for one Luck point, or could they spend 200 xp for 2?


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:20 pm 
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I like the idea of awarding 1 luck / adventure. I will add 1 point if certain objectives are met (ie. Destroy the false idol, find the Hidden Pool Room) and subtract points for others (ie. poor gameplay, in-fighting, acting against alignment or "failing to destroy the false idol").


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Hamakto wrote:
moes1980 wrote:
I didn't consider burning luck to help with a disable traps skill. I guess a low level thief would have to burn about that much to get a solid bonus to make him comfortable at disarming a trap (giving him at level one, a +25 to 100% bonus. Although, I probably would have burned three, giving me 15 to 60% bonusfor a total of about 35% to 95% chanch of success). But than again, the thief can heal I think one luck point per level per day of resting so they can afford to spend it a little more liberally. But I still doubt that he can spend 5 points all session long getting those bonuses. It also makes a difference if the game was a one shot game or somewhat of an ongoing game.


Remember that a thief works like this:

1. Luck is applied AFTER the dice are rolled, so a their only needs to 'burn' enough luck to make the check, if they fail the % roll.
2. Thief rolls a luck die [based on level] for each point or luck burned (d3, d4, d5, etc...)

A thief is supposed to burn luck in doing their thief checks. If they are not burning it for that, then they become super fighters, never miss a save, etc...


Yes, but for percentile you get 5 percent per luck pont spent, so when you roll that d3, you get 5 percent X's what you roll, not one percient (i.e. if you roll a 3 on the luck die you get a bonus of 15 percent, not 3 percent).

I don't think a thief is "supposed" to burn his luck only on the thief skills. thief using his luck bonus die on attacks would not make them a super fighter. Why? fighters get a d3, d4, d5 etc for all their attacks without burning luck, plus mighty deed of arms, so a thief burning his luck points to get those bonuses without mighty deed of arms is certinly not super powerful. The idea that the thief is super powerful because he can burn luck to almost fight as well as a fighter (of course, still likely to have worse AC and hps) dosn't make sense. Yes, the thief can use his luck to help make saves if needed, but that comes more into play with avoiding traps and certain monster special attacks such as breath weapon or poison more then with combat as a whole.

Even when I said the thief in my group could use luick to modify an attacker's die roll to avoid getting hit, the thief still died in the first session he played in and was level 2. The thief failed on a search for traps test (that I roll in secret so they don't know if they found it), and was stuck with a poison needle. Yes, luck could have been spent to boos that role, but since the thief had no idea of a trap was there or not, decided not to burn luck on it. Instead, luck was burned to make the save in order to avoid an instat death (not really instant death as the cleric would have 2d6 hours to stave off the death effect with casting of heal, but the party didnt know that). But, even with passing the save thanks to burned luck, the poison still caused paralysis for 2d6 hours as its lesser effect. Meanwhile, another party member triped a fireball trap. Since the thief was paralyzed I ruled no reflex save for half damage was possible and said thief was burned to a crisp. Cleric tried twice to revive the thief but couldnt pass the spell check and the thief also failed the final check because he now had a negitive luck mod from bruning luck thoughout the adventure. Otherwise he would have lived. Burning off luck has its drawbacks for sure.

The thief, just like other classes, is really only supposed to use that luck die for when it really matters. They just can do it more often then other classes because it recharges slowly. The luck of theives and halflings just don't seem to run out as fast as other's luck, but that dosn't mean they should test fate with spending luck points willy nilly.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:04 pm 
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A Strange Aeon wrote:
I like this idea--EXP can be spent on things other than just leveling up, a bit like how GP in the old Warhammer Quest boardgame needed to be spent to gain a new level, but also was spent on equipment.

I don't know how thematic trading XP for Luck is, but it seems like a reasonable mechanic, since XP has always been rather nebulous anyway. And I'm not sure from your post--do you mean PCs could only increase their luck above its baseline? And is there a limit per end of adventure of, let's say, 100 xp for one Luck point, or could they spend 200 xp for 2?


Thanks for the reply. Weeeel I was thinking that players could raise their luck by a certain amount beyond their starting score with this mechanic. The character that starts with a 3 Luck really needs some way of getting it up to a non penalty score at least surely! But how far? Lets go for 6 points total bought increase and nobody can have a luck greater than 18 period.

Cost of this magnificence? Hmm It should vary by the characters level. Getting the full 6 points should cost them half the exp they'd need for a level methinks (or some equally hideous penalty) a single point however should be no more than 5% of the xp it'd take them to reach next level. Something like that.

So come end of adventure 5% of exp total needed for next level for 1 bought Luck
10% for 2 points
20% for 3 points
30% for 4 points
40% for 5 Points
and 50% for 6 points

Something like that might work. I'd have to really number crunch to get it balanced and I'm not prepared to do that unless there was a lot of interest! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:05 am 
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You do realize Joseph has posted that he rewards the PCs 1-2 luck after an adventure correct? So it can go up.

I'm not a fan of trading XP for luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:00 am 
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moes1980 wrote:
I don't think a thief is "supposed" to burn his luck only on the thief skills. thief using his luck bonus die on attacks would not make them a super fighter. Why? fighters get a d3, d4, d5 etc for all their attacks without burning luck, plus mighty deed of arms, so a thief burning his luck points to get those bonuses without mighty deed of arms is certinly not super powerful. The idea that the thief is super powerful because he can burn luck to almost fight as well as a fighter (of course, still likely to have worse AC and hps) dosn't make sense. Yes, the thief can use his luck to help make saves if needed, but that comes more into play with avoiding traps and certain monster special attacks such as breath weapon or poison more then with combat as a whole.


Once again, remember that luck is applied after the dice are rolled.

So a thief only needs to expend luck if he missed his combat roll. Yes a fighter gets d3,d4,d5 on every combat roll. But a thief gets his BAB (+0.+1,+2) on every combat roll. Then only needs to do the luck thingy if he misses.

That was my point about Thief and combat.

At high levels a fighter will be doing far more damage since the class die also adds to damage rolls.

Is it unbalancing? Not sure yet. But it does create an interesting character.

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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:39 am 
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bholmes4 wrote:
You do realize Joseph has posted that he rewards the PCs 1-2 luck after an adventure correct? So it can go up.

I'm not a fan of trading XP for luck.


Actually no I didn't know this. its mentioned in the Beta that Luck can go up but I couldn't find ANY specifics, if you could provide a link to one of his posts that you mention it'd help me a lot! Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:40 am 
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Hamakto wrote:
At high levels a fighter will be doing far more damage since the class die also adds to damage rolls.

Is it unbalancing? Not sure yet. But it does create an interesting character.


I appreciate the "balance-schmalance" approach, though I'm not firmly in either camp.

Having played a game with a 5th level warrior and everyone else. I can say pretty definitively that the Warrior's d7 Attack die was very effective.

By comparison, the Thief's Backstab ability (and subsequent crits) were not.

I can't critique the supremacy of the Attack Die because I think it's pretty intentional. And I liked it.

But I came away from the table thinking that the Thief should've been able to do more damage. Not more damage than the Fighter. But just more damage than he was doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Ducaster wrote:
Actually no I didn't know this. its mentioned in the Beta that Luck can go up but I couldn't find ANY specifics, if you could provide a link to one of his posts that you mention it'd help me a lot! Thanks in advance.


http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=14424&p=40657&hilit=luck#p40657

Also I forget. Can the thief add his luck die to something like his damage rolls?\

I always assumed he could stand toe to toe with a warrior and essentially fight just as well but eventually his luck would run out and the fighter would best him. The problem I saw was that there was no limit to spending these dice at one time, so couldn't the thief (assuming he CAN add damage) do a 1d6 + 10d16 damage attack if he wants to abuse the rules and thus maybe kill a warrior in one hit?


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:25 pm 
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bholmes4 wrote:
Ducaster wrote:
Actually no I didn't know this. its mentioned in the Beta that Luck can go up but I couldn't find ANY specifics, if you could provide a link to one of his posts that you mention it'd help me a lot! Thanks in advance.


http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=14424&p=40657&hilit=luck#p40657

Also I forget. Can the thief add his luck die to something like his damage rolls?\

I always assumed he could stand toe to toe with a warrior and essentially fight just as well but eventually his luck would run out and the fighter would best him. The problem I saw was that there was no limit to spending these dice at one time, so couldn't the thief (assuming he CAN add damage) do a 1d6 + 10d16 damage attack if he wants to abuse the rules and thus maybe kill a warrior in one hit?



Thats a good point. If it works that way then the thief has a high potential for ruining epic "end of the adventure" battles by blowing all his luck to rack up damage, and then take it easy for the next few adventures to recover the spent luck. But, maybe the idea is the thief would probably spend a few points here, and a few points there thoughout the adventure, so that when he comes to a monster that is worth of a total dump of luck, there won't be that much luck left. Personaly I don't like the idea of spending luck to alter damage and have not been letting player use luck in that sense. I have only let them use it to help, hit, to help avoid getting hit (also a house rule im experementing with), saving thorws and skill checks.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Hamakto wrote:
moes1980 wrote:
I don't think a thief is "supposed" to burn his luck only on the thief skills. thief using his luck bonus die on attacks would not make them a super fighter. Why? fighters get a d3, d4, d5 etc for all their attacks without burning luck, plus mighty deed of arms, so a thief burning his luck points to get those bonuses without mighty deed of arms is certinly not super powerful. The idea that the thief is super powerful because he can burn luck to almost fight as well as a fighter (of course, still likely to have worse AC and hps) dosn't make sense. Yes, the thief can use his luck to help make saves if needed, but that comes more into play with avoiding traps and certain monster special attacks such as breath weapon or poison more then with combat as a whole.


Once again, remember that luck is applied after the dice are rolled.

So a thief only needs to expend luck if he missed his combat roll. Yes a fighter gets d3,d4,d5 on every combat roll. But a thief gets his BAB (+0.+1,+2) on every combat roll. Then only needs to do the luck thingy if he misses.

That was my point about Thief and combat.

At high levels a fighter will be doing far more damage since the class die also adds to damage rolls.

Is it unbalancing? Not sure yet. But it does create an interesting character.



The part about spending luck after roll dosnt bother me, I already let all classes do that, and I even tell them how much they need to spend in order to succed at what they want to do. I figure for most classes it is so hard to get that luck back that I will cut them a break so that they don't have to guess and wast luck points. So far it has worked out just fine, and so that is a non-issue for me.

AI still don't see how a thief can compete with a fighter over the long course of a game in melee. Ok, at level 4 the thief gets a +2 and luck die d6 where as the fighter just has d6 attack die but the fighter will likely be better armored negating that +2 for the thief. The fighter also has 4d12 hps vs 4d6 hps for the thief, and the fighter also gets criticals on a 18-20. The thief still has to spend luck to catch up to the fighter in terms of chanch to hit. In a stright up dual between fighter and thief the thief probably could kill the fighter. Burn some luck to beat fighter on inititative, burn some more luck to make sure you hit, burn the rest of your luck to modify damage and fighter is dead. But that is why I think luck should not be able to be spent on damage (maybe inititaive rolls are ok). But in the dungeion, where exploration and multiple combats are the nature of the game, the thief is not going to surpas the fighter as the front line fighter.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:58 pm 
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moes1980 wrote:
But that is why I think luck should not be able to be spent on damage (maybe inititaive rolls are ok). But in the dungeion, where exploration and multiple combats are the nature of the game, the thief is not going to surpas the fighter as the front line fighter.


I am thinking that perhaps in combat a thief can spend 1 die as a bonus to hit, 1 die as a bonus to damage. If they wish to risk beyond that then it must permanently lower their stat at +1 / point (not that is +1, not +1 die). Might even be a good way to force them decrease once in awhile instead of a constant trend to 18 luck.

Something like that anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Luck Kind of Sucks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:26 am 
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oh cmon i don't think it's right to pit different classes against each other.. you should check how they work together... It doesn't matter who's stronger between warrior and thief, what matters i that they are not redundant.
The warrior has the best hps, armor and damage. He's the front liner. The thief can keep the party alive finding traps, and then in combat he can pull out a one-off move.
They are quite different and they fill different roles, therefore their players will be able to have fun, without any competition.

PS: if you're still worried about having the thief spending 10 luck points to get +10d6 damage against the big bad guy, then allow Luck to be spent on damage only on a critical hit: makes sense.

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