Get rid of infravision!

[Talath]

Why give the ability to see in the dark to some characters and not others? Legacy reasons?

Elves and dwarves had no infravision in OD&D because light sources were a resource, and the game was about resource management as much as finding treasure. Parties with members with different vision abilities causes headaches.

I removed darkvision and low light vision from the races in my Pathfinder game and no one minds. They rely on lanterns and torches and find it hard to ambush monsters in dark places.

If you want to represent keen senses, give the Demihumans bonuses on ability checks for perception. Get rid of infravision!

[jmucchiello]

Is infravision mentioned in Appendix N stories? Legolas could see far away but I can't recall anyone seeing at night. But my reading of Appendix N stories is mostly over 10 years old. (Except Complete Enchanter about 1 year ago.)

[Talath]

My memory is hazy, but I think the elves in Poul Andersons "The Broken Sword" can see in the dark. However, since Mr. Goodman is picking and choosing what to include from the source material, this is one request I believe will benefit the game.

That and get rid of the elven ability to automatically get a roll when near a secret door. No more elven door sweepers. No more night vision Demihumans!

[geordie racer]

They could just add 1d3 to perception checks.

[Troy812]

For elves... I agree. Get rid of the " * vision" and just add to a perception roll.
But for the subterranean races (dwarfs and drow) Ithin they might need a little something...

[Talath]

The DCC RPG, as I've come to know so far, is about nodding to legacy while defying decades long expectations about what it means to adventure in a fantasy RPG. If this is at all true, combined with the reasons I gave earlier, defy this expectation and strike out a new avenue of exploration lost since the 70s.

[onearmspence]

I'm not sure about that one.

Rules for illumination (like rules for encumbrance) are usually ignored... most adventure's groups include at least one human and that forces at least one character to carry a torch...

So yeah, many players will never notice if infravision is removed from the game.

But I must admit that I like the simplicity of infravision’s rules. (Instead of lots of tiny perception bonus related to different light conditions).

I also like the fey like aspect it confers to the elves.

[Ravenheart87]

Elves and dwarves had no infravision in OD&D...

Only in LBB. They did get infravision in Supplement I.

[echoota]

For ages I've longed to get rid of darkvision/infravision. Low-light vision is fine, but ultimately the need for a light source is one of those elements that make for a more engaging experience. Having the nasty creatures be able to see in the dark, but the PCs can't is one of those primordial fears that the system ought to be tapping into, rather than glazing over it.

One way of being able to explain how Dwarves and the like can handle being underground constantly might be via echolocation. I actually just listened to a radio show the other day that detailed how some blind people use it to ride a bike or skateboard in traffic today.

With echolocation you could have an effect where you can get the creepy effect of "something's there!" without divulging all of the details which can then get meta-gamed to death by some players.

[talmor]

One way of being able to explain how Dwarves and the like can handle being underground constantly might be via echolocation.

That might verge on silly/cause problems in play.

I vote to dump infravision, as well. Give dwarves "underground sight" and elves "star sight." Dwarves can see further underground with aid of minimal light sources, and elves can see further at night by light of natural (moon and stars) sources.

This of course assumes that you give either race a bonus to their perception--personally, I'd rather there not be.

[jmucchiello]

Have them roll d24s in appropriate low-light situations.

[rabindranath72]

No Tolkien elves nor dwarves can see in the dark.

[finarvyn]

The problem with infravision is that it tends to make the human thief obsolete.

Need someone to sneak ahead in the dark tunnel? Clearly the elf, since he can see in the dark. But wait, isn't that the thief's job....?

I've had several thief players over the years get frustrated because if they sneak ahead they can't see, but if they light a torch they can see but not really sneak anymore.

[talmor]

The problem with infravision is that it tends to make the human thief obsolete.

I've actaually seen it make HUMANS as a whole obsolete. It's just one of those nice bonuses that makes non-humans "better" than humans. Why being a human mage when you can be an elven mage? Why be a human fighter when you can be a dwarf fighter? In D&D these was "balanced" with level caps, which seemed to never come into play--either because we never got that high in level, or by the time we did the GM wouldn't enforce them. Generally the former. It wasn't until 3.X that I started seeing humans being the majority race again.

In DCC, there seems to be a slight compromise--that you can be a "Dwarf" with full "Dwarf powers" or you can be a Dwarf Fighter, and just be a fighter. But, as others have pointed out, this has some logical issues that cause problems--namely, why does the "racial" abilities not carry over?

The only way of out this is to either enforce the class/race distinction (which still leaves the problem of why not send the elf to scount?), create specific demi-human classes that are less powerful than the human versions, or get rid of some of the powers from the demihumans.

Since I don't know of that many sources that say elves and dwarves can see in darkness, I think it should go.

Replacing it with a D24 or even a D30 for special "perception" rolls in approbriate circumstances seems a better fix, if you NEED to give the non-humans a perception boost.

[jmucchiello]

Replacing it with a D24 or even a D30 for special "perception" rolls in approbriate circumstances seems a better fix, if you NEED to give the non-humans a perception boost.

IOW, give non-humans a different action die when making Intelligence checks for perception purposes. (Based on my theory that there should only be combat rolls and ability checks.

[echoota]

Where does infravision come from in terms of the original material?

When looking at Appendix N titles I'm not remembering anything that involved heroic races being able to see in darkness. There might have been some monsters, such as Shelob or Gollum who could perceive things in the dark in some manner, but I don't remember anything that basically gave someone infrared vision in any of the books.

[GnomeBoy]

...Give dwarves "underground sight" and elves "star sight."...

Have them roll d24s in appropriate low-light situations.

Basically these, if anything, please.

But make the elves have "moon sight" and the dwarves, er, "cavern sight" or something. The elves' bonus doesn't kick in *every* night. And the dwarves' shoudn't kick in always underground either (only in unworked caverns?).

[Ogrepuppy]

...Give dwarves "underground sight" and elves "star sight."...

But make the elves have "moon sight" and the dwarves, er, "cavern sight" or something. The elves' bonus doesn't kick in *every* night. And the dwarves' shoudn't kick in always underground either (only in unworked caverns?).

I essentially agree here: make the low-light ability situational and fairly restricted. Elves can ONLY see under clear, non-cloudy night skies with stars and moon. Dwarves can ONLY see underground, in mines and caverns where gold and gems are likely to be found. Hobbi--err, Halflings can only see 20' ahead in low-light conditions, making them sub-optimal scouts. Any other condition? The races get no bonus, just like humans.

[abk108]

I don't think that infravision has any problem to it. I wouldnt certainly let the only dwarf in the group scout the cavern while the rest awaits in the darkness. They'd get ambushed/eaten/turned into practice targets for goblin arrows. I bet they'd rather light a torch. In that case, they can just let the thief scout and do his job.

However, why not let Elves & Dwarves see a feeble outline of hotblooded creatures, like in the Dragonlance books? They wouldn't be able to spot traps, spiked holes, zombies and vampires. They'd just get a chance to spot the occasional orc or wolf sneaking on them at night, or to fire an arrow in the darkness, before anybody else could see the danger coming. That would be cool, imagine: the elf suddenly points his bow and fires his arrow without uttering a word. A few meters away, you hear a *squeeek* and a *thump*. You advance in the corridor, where you find a dead kobold.

[finarvyn]

Where does infravision come from in terms of the original material?

When looking at Appendix N titles I'm not remembering anything that involved heroic races being able to see in darkness. There might have been some monsters, such as Shelob or Gollum who could perceive things in the dark in some manner, but I don't remember anything that basically gave someone infrared vision in any of the books.

Say ... why isn't there a 1% chance that your random background could be "gollum race"? Wouldn't that be creepy?

[shadewest]

Where does infravision come from in terms of the original material?

When looking at Appendix N titles I'm not remembering anything that involved heroic races being able to see in darkness. There might have been some monsters, such as Shelob or Gollum who could perceive things in the dark in some manner, but I don't remember anything that basically gave someone infrared vision in any of the books.

Say ... why isn't there a 1% chance that your random background could be "gollum race"? Wouldn't that be creepy?

Gollum is a halfling affected by Corruption from the One Ring.

[jeff]

I've always treated an Elf's lowlight vision as being similar to a cat's. Therefore an Elf's eyes will shine in the dark. Remember, cats can't see in total darkness and neither can Elves.

[jeff]

I've always treated an Elf's lowlight vision as being similar to a cat's. Therefore an Elf's eyes will shine in the dark. Remember, cats can't see in total darkness and neither can Elves.

[jeff]

I've always treated an Elf's lowlight vision as being similar to a cat's. Therefore an Elf's eyes will shine in the dark. Remember, cats can't see in total darkness and neither can Elves.

[Devil Swine]

Seeing in the dark is a pain in the arse. Lose it!

As you descend down the shadowy stairs the moonlight streams down from above revealing a passageway leading off into the darkness. Elf character so whats down there? Do I see any prints in the dust or what?

BAH!!

Down with Darkvision!