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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:24 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

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Of course. Anyone can pick a simple lock (DC 15) given enough time and patience. But with a DC of 25 you might need to burn some luck to get there. The thief of sufficient level and agility can pick it easier and faster though. Disarming a trap should be a personality check since most of it just having the moxie to message around with the trap in the first place. There's no real trick to hiding in shadows, thieves just are better at finding the deepest, best placed shadows faster that the average barbarian.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:26 am 
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I must agree. The Thief % skills was the thing in the playtest that I most considered to be a reason why not to play this game (regularly). And, that's a big thing because everything else just screams, "Play me!"

I'd like to see some sort of Zocchi dice alternative as well. Fighters get MdoA. Maybe Thieves should get an equivalent for non-fighting scenes? I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:28 am 
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Posts: 58
Machpants wrote:
I agree the whole % for thieves and D20 for others doesn't make sense. I am an experienced (since BECMI) and that made me scratch my head. % is a hark back to early editions that is not required. The skill section is short and sweet and all that is needed (IMO) is for this"

"If your character’s background supports his know-
ing such a skill, you may attempt a skill check."


To be changed to this:

"If your character’s background or class supports his know-
ing such a skill, you may attempt a skill check."


With a list of what each class can expect to be able to attempt in the class descriptions
e.g.
Warriors can expect to be able to repair armour and weapons (not make) like a blacksmith or armourer; etc.
Thieves can expect to be able to hide, move silently, climb shear surface, open locks, find traps; etc.
Wizards can expect to be able to decipher arcane script or symbols; etc.


Jeebus, how did i miss this post?

This is what should be done! Give the thief some other abilities to make him cool, keep skills simple and loose!

Maybe give the Thief a pool of points (or funky dice) he can use to buff skills checks that pertain to thieving activities that refresh daily? Or the like?


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:44 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
That's what I wrote up above: d6/d6/d8/d8/d10 for 3 thief abilities he's great at, d3/d4/d5/d6/d7 for 3 abilities he's pretty good at, and +1/+1/+2/+2/+3 for the rest of the thieves abilities. Simple.


Well, I came up with my thoughts at about 1am last night, before I read your post :)

And I was thinking of just using the Luck Die for all Thief Skills & giving a flat bonus of +1 to +3 to the Luck Die of certain Thief Skills. I hadn't had a chance to check DC's yet, though.

Yours is simple, as well. Good work!


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:48 am 
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Michael Pfaff wrote:
I must agree. The Thief % skills was the thing in the playtest that I most considered to be a reason why not to play this game (regularly). And, that's a big thing because everything else just screams, "Play me!"

I'd like to see some sort of Zocchi dice alternative as well. Fighters get MdoA. Maybe Thieves should get an equivalent for non-fighting scenes? I don't know.


Maybe they could generate Luck dice...or bad Luck dice.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:14 am 
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Another vote for losing the % thief skills. It seems a needless complication for no good reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:21 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:53 am
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Agreed. I never liked the percentage system for thief skills even way back when.

The whole thing is just awkward in this book. Seems entirely out of place and doesn't flow with the rest of the system.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:27 am 
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Machpants wrote:
"If your character’s background or class supports his know-
ing such a skill, you may attempt a skill check."


With a list of what each class can expect to be able to attempt in the class descriptions
e.g.
Warriors can expect to be able to repair armour and weapons (not make) like a blacksmith or armourer; etc.
Thieves can expect to be able to hide, move silently, climb shear surface, open locks, find traps; etc.
Wizards can expect to be able to decipher arcane script or symbols; etc.


I like this idea better than the %

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:38 am 
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Posts: 76
Put me down for ditching the %--it's a dated system. Besides, newer players won't get/appreciate the homage. Stick with the fun D3's and D5's--use them instead.

Secondly, can we collapse the thief skill list? Combine Sneak Silently and Hide in Shadows to a generic "stealth" roll?

I'd like to see something that lets all players sneak--maybe a roll of 1d20 + Agility? Thieves (and halflings) get to add bonus die based on level to that roll, or get a flat bonus (+1 at level 1, +1d3 at level 2?).


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:41 am 
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Location: Montevallo, AL
goodmangames wrote:
+D30...ha!

Ironically the thief skill system was d20 based for the first year of playtesting. I just changed it a month or two ago. The thief class just wasn't quite "special" enough. I think the use of the Luck die really made a difference in that. So far the reaction to % skills in games has been love it / hate it...appears that everyone here hates it! Does ANYBODY like it? Just curious...

Also, noted elsewhere but bears repeating: thieves can make their % check in addition to the d20 check. So the above noted sneaking example, if the thief fails his % check he can ALSO make the normal Agi check. I think I forgot to actually write this anywhere in the rules though. Thank goodness for playtesters who catch things. :)


I like the %.

I haven't finished reading the beta, so this may not even be an issue, for some reason or another, but my problem with going the d20/DC route is the typical, "moving the goal-post" of d20 games.

"No, I'm sorry, your high-level Thief, really isn't a high-level Thief, because I made this lock a DC 50. So There!"

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:00 am 
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My last post didn't show up, so let's try this again.

I like the %. Not married to the idea, though.

My problem with a d20/DC thing, is the whole "moving the goal-post" thing.

"No, I'm sorry, you're not really a high-level thief! This lock is DC 50! So there!"

High level, badass Fighters should be able to hit powerful monsters, often! High level, badass Wizards should expect a similar level of efficacy. And a high level badass Thief, should be able to ghost his way through all that crap!

So long as that's avoided, I wouldn't have an issue. Otherwise, there's no point in giving the larcenous little buggers, any xp at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:41 am
Posts: 70
Add another vote to losing the % based skill rolls.

And I also was wondering why so many thief skills? It seems that thieves don't get to pick them, the chance is assigned by alignment, and hide and move silently are either the same, or 5% different, and the same goes for finding traps and disabling them. Why not just combine hide and move silently and find/remove traps? The only reason I can think not to is if thieves were allowed to choose skills and for some reason sneaking and dealing with traps had to effectively be a double cost skill.

Also, I've always felt that thieves should be the ones who are good at finding hidden stuff like secret door, not elves. Perhaps there is an Appendix N reason why the elves do the spotting, but I 've always thought it would be great if the thieves could be the ones who could spot the secret and sneaky ways in.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:48 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
nanstreet wrote:
Also, I've always felt that thieves should be the ones who are good at finding hidden stuff like secret door, not elves. Perhaps there is an Appendix N reason why the elves do the spotting, but I 've always thought it would be great if the thieves could be the ones who could spot the secret and sneaky ways in.

+d12 (it get no love normally and now all these other dice are around making it even more of a wallflower)

I also think the "skill" list should be paired down to barest minimum. Also, you should have to choose your abilities: Pick any 5 + luck bonus: Pick Pockets, Open Lock & Disarm Traps, Spot Traps and Secret Doors, Stealth, Climb, Poison Handling, Disguise and/or Forge Documents.

Backstab should just be +1/level bonus to attacking unaware targets and removed from the chart.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:05 pm 
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What I noticed is that the "thief ability" chart lists things that ONLY thieves can do. Pick pockets, climb SHEER walls, etc. These are things that keep thieves special, for sure. Irregardless of it being a % based or DCs, in no way would I want to see those "abilities" made available to other classes. Classed based systems are this way for a reason. I don't want to delve into the merits or disadvantages of skill based vs class based systems, but there are certain principles (for game purposes) that the Fantasy genre works so well being class based, and skill systems were the reason some people hate the thief in OD&D.

DCC emphasizes that general Skill Checks are a last resort and used only when deemed necessary. While Thief abilities are necessary to keep them a viable class. So I see the need for it to be a different "sub-system", in the same why Warriors (& dwarfs) get MDoA, Wizards get spells and clerics get turning. (on another note, the turning chart for Clerics is probably the ugliest sub-system in DCC. I'll start another thread on this...) The thief ability chart is off-putting, for sure, as % based pass/fail thing. A degree of success (which seems to be the trend with DCC, Spells and MDoA) thing would definitely be better. Here's an example:

Pick Lock/Pocket:

0 or less - Tragic fail, break the lock, hand gets stuck in victim's pocket.
1 - 10 - Fail. It won't unlock, you get nothing.
11+ Lock is open, you get what you want.
20+ Lock is open, you get what you want and more... etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:00 pm
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While I kinda enjoyed the nostalgia/homage to 1st Ed with the %-based Thief abilities, I'd rather see the system replaced with something that flows better and feels more organic to the DCC RPG system.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Scrap the % system. 1E was nice but D20 does skill checks smoothly. You've got Clerics, Wizards, and Fighters all using D20 and a variable dice to accomplish a task yet we have Rogues use a %? Let's standardize some and don't do nostalgia for nostalgia's sake. Give variable rules but use the Zocchi and D20 for as much as you can and allow for the OPTION to do % with certain bonus rules (Do I hear an Advanced Players Guide? :D ).

K.I.S.S applies so well here as this game is the toned down simple system I love to play. Don't complicate it please.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Michael Pfaff wrote:
Fighters get MdoA. Maybe Thieves should get an equivalent for non-fighting scenes? I don't know.


As a player of rogues and thieves almost exclusively, I really can't agree more with this.

Scratch the % dice and add a larcenous version of MdoA for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
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At the moment it's just a bonus on the skill rolls. If I were to mirror the 3 or better aspect of MDoA, I'd do something like: For Open Lock, on a 3 or better, the lock opens in a single combat round. Otherwise it takes a minute (or some other scale speed up). Same applies to climbing, moving silently, disarming traps. Etc. For Pick Pocket a 3 and better would be more valuable items being picked. So there is success and there is expert success.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Ogrepuppy wrote:
Michael Pfaff wrote:
Fighters get MdoA. Maybe Thieves should get an equivalent for non-fighting scenes? I don't know.


As a player of rogues and thieves almost exclusively, I really can't agree more with this.

Scratch the % dice and add a larcenous version of MdoA for them.


I know I had some discussions with Joseph on adding MDoA dice for thieves during the play testing process. I actually tried to add MDoA style dice to the Wizards and Clerics (spell checks) and Thieves (DC checks and Sneak Damage bonus)

I did not find his response, but it was along the lines that MDoA is a cool mechanic and it is unique to the Warriors/Dwarves for combat. They are trying to shoot for a different feel for each class and if we add MDoA style dice to each class then the Warrior is no longer quite as special.

I can see his point, but I am still not convinced that it would be a make the Warrior mechanic non-unique. I like rolling funky dice. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:34 pm 
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As i said in the Has you opinion of DCCRPG changed thread. the little d3/d4/d5/d6/d7 per level bonus to what is core in a class is the most innovative thing in DCCRPG and it should be rammed into every place it fits. It is better than the SIEGE mechanic in C&C and should be just as prominent.


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Michael Pfaff wrote:
I must agree. The Thief % skills was the thing in the playtest that I most considered to be a reason why not to play this game (regularly). And, that's a big thing because everything else just screams, "Play me!"
:shock: You're kidding. You would scrap an entire RPG and not play it just because of percentile rolls for thief skills? Wow.

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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:51 pm 
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talmor wrote:
I'd like to see something that lets all players sneak--maybe a roll of 1d20 + Agility? Thieves (and halflings) get to add bonus die based on level to that roll, or get a flat bonus (+1 at level 1, +1d3 at level 2?).

I think that "sneak" and "move silently" were never intended to be the same thing. Anyone can sneak, which would imply creeping along quietly. Move silently was (to me) always "ninja stealthy" kind of super-sneaking.

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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:55 pm 
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finarvyn wrote:
Michael Pfaff wrote:
You're kidding. You would scrap an entire RPG and not play it just because of percentile rolls for thief skills? Wow.


I know I would. I'm not saying that is the case with DCC, but my gaming time is lot less than it was (I'm sure I'm not in the minority on that, on this forum). I CAN come up with patches & house rules, or I can find a game where I don't have to DO that. Now, Joseph needs to make the game he wants, but he's been kind enough to open it up for opinion. Poor guy ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

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finarvyn wrote:
I think that "sneak" and "move silently" were never intended to be the same thing. Anyone can sneak, which would imply creeping along quietly. Move silently was (to me) always "ninja stealthy" kind of super-sneaking.

Converting Move Silently and Hide in Shadows to a single Stealth roll does two things. It eliminates the stupidity that you can't move silently through shadows. It also means you only need to roll dice once: Is the thief PERCEIVED or not? That's what you want to know. Not how well the thief blended with the marble columns or avoid this or that squeaky board. You want the whole answer. Was he not seen and not heard?


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 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:19 pm 
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talmor wrote:
I'd like to see something that lets all players sneak--maybe a roll of 1d20 + Agility? Thieves (and halflings) get to add bonus die based on level to that roll, or get a flat bonus (+1 at level 1, +1d3 at level 2?).


"Finally, if the skill is something that any adult could have a reasonable chance of attempting, then any character can make a check."

So anyone can try to sneak. Thieves and halflings are just going to be way better at it.

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