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 Post subject: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot
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Posts: 57
Hi there,

I've noticed the new 4E modules begin with a revised DCC mantra (Remember the Good Old Days...) in comparison to the 3.5 modules.

The changes are subtle, but changes nonetheless.

Obviously someone felt the need to make edits, I'm curious as to the reasoning.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
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Location: San Jose, CA
Um, what changed? That wasn't deliberate! And I didn't even notice...

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Goodman Games
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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:52 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
Posts: 1787
Location: On the run.
Hmmm...I'm in the dark, too. (Goes to flip through the 3.5 and 4E DCCs.)

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
goodmangames wrote:
Um, what changed? That wasn't deliberate! And I didn't even notice...


Joe

There are differences - small but noticeable. I am amazed you and Harley don't know :shock:

I have highlighted the changed text in bold in the new version.

Old 3.5ed Intro

"Remember the good old days, when adventures were underground, NPCs were there to be killed, and the finale of every dungeon was the dragon on the 20th level? Those days are back. Dungeon Crawl Classics don't waste your time with long-winded speeches, weird campaign settings, or NPCs who aren't meant to be killed. Each adventure is 100% good, solid dungeon crawl, with the monsters you know, the traps you fear, and the secret doors you know are there somewhere."

New 4e Intro

Remember the golden days of role playing, when adventures were underground, NPCs were there to be killed, and the finale of every dungeon was the dragon on the 20th level? Those days are back. Dungeon Crawl Classics feature bloody combat, intriguing dungeons and no NPCs who aren't meant to be killed. Each adventure is 100% good, solid dungeon crawl, with the monsters you know, the traps you fear, and the secret doors you know must be there somewhere.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
Posts: 1787
Location: On the run.
:) That change took place way before 4E ... I just went back and checked my Into the Wilds text doc and it had the second version:

Remember the golden days of role-playing, when adventures were underground, NPCs were there to be killed, and the finale of every dungeon was the dragon on the 20th level? Well, those days are back. Dungeon Crawl Classics feature bloody combat and intriguing dungeons. Each adventure is 100% good, solid dungeon crawl, with the monsters you know, the traps you fear, and the secret doors you know must be there somewhere.

So we have a mystery ... in which DCC *did* the change take place?

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:13 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
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Location: On the run.
And I just checked my PDF copy of DCC 17, and it is the second version, so earlier than that. (Unless my PDF reflects a later printing. Dunno.)

Maybe the switch corresponded with the 3.0/3.5 crossover?

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:54 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
Harley Stroh wrote:
:) That change took place way before 4E ... I just went back and checked my Into the Wilds text doc and it had the second version:

Remember the golden days of role-playing, when adventures were underground, NPCs were there to be killed, and the finale of every dungeon was the dragon on the 20th level? Well, those days are back. Dungeon Crawl Classics feature bloody combat and intriguing dungeons. Each adventure is 100% good, solid dungeon crawl, with the monsters you know, the traps you fear, and the secret doors you know must be there somewhere.

So we have a mystery ... in which DCC *did* the change take place?

//H


Very interesting ! Do you want to guess which DCC I took my "old 3.5 ed intro" from .................

..............

..............

Go on, keep guessing :lol:

..............

..............

It was DCC 52 : Chronicle of the Fiend :shock:

Yep, Goodman Games DCC line has been running with two different Intros for a long time now. It's too late here in the UK for me to dig out every DCC and check which version was used where, but it is interesting isn't it (or maybe everyone else knows all about it and it's only me - and the original thread starter - who is interested).

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
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Location: On the run.
Well I'll be... *scrambles to check each DCC in his library*

Frank, any idea when the "new" blurb first appeared?

//H

(Edit. Heh. For the above posts I only checked my own manuscripts. Wonder if I'm the only one using the variant blurb.)

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The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.

DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:47 pm 
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Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
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Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:44 pm
Posts: 630
Checking my "Completed Projects" folder...

Palace = "golden" version
"Larder," "Fate," and "Old Feodol" don't have the mission statement
Castle Whiterock = "good old days"
Isle of the Sea Drake = "golden"
Fall of Fort Frostbite = "golden"
The Warbringer's Son = "golden"
...and Chronicle has already been addressed.

And the current project(s) are all tagged with "golden"...

...but this is not a surprise.
Anything I originate includes some formatting copy-paste from a Word doc of Into the Wilds I have, so it follows I'd have the ItW mission statement.
Doyle set up the formatting for Castle Whiterock, and he would have probably used what he had for Secret of Smuggler's Cove (for example), hence it's got the "good old days" instead of "golden" statement.

So I blame Harley. :D

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Co-Author: The Almanac of the Endless Traders, DCC #13, DCC #29, DCC #49, DCC #51, DCC #52, DCC #63

Author: DCC #55: Isle of the Sea Drake, DCC #61: Citadel of the Corruptor, more to come....


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:28 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
Harley Stroh wrote:
Well I'll be... *scrambles to check each DCC in his library*

Frank, any idea when the "new" blurb first appeared?

//H

(Edit. Heh. For the above posts I only checked my own manuscripts. Wonder if I'm the only one using the variant blurb.)


Harley (et al)

Partly, the confusion arises because most (but definitely not all) DCCs have the "mission statement" repeated twice in each copy. Once on the cover and once in the introduction. As a service to GG (you can pay me in kind at some point in the future :lol: ), I offer the following analysis :-

DCC (Keyword) Cover Intro

0 (Legends) Good Good
1 (Idylls) Good Golden
2 (Vault) Good Good
3 (Tower) Good Good
4 (Gold) Good Good
5 (Aerie) Good Good
6 (Temple) Good N/A
7 (Smuggler's) Good Good
8 (Drow) Good Good
9 OK, I admit it, I don't own this one !
10 (Sunless) Good Good
11 (Dragonfiend) Good Golden
12 (Blackguard's) Good Good
12.5 (Heretics) Good Golden
13 (Crypt) Good Good
14 (Interludes) Good Golden
15 (Tomb) Good Golden
16 (Curse) Good Good
17 (Legacy) Good Golden
17.5 (War) Good Golden
18 OK, I admit it, I don't own this one either
19 (Volcano) Good Good
20 (Shadows) Good Golden
21 (Castle) Good Golden
22 (Juggernaut) Good Golden
23 (Ziggurat) Good Golden
24 (Ripper) Good Golden
25 (Crypt) Good Good
26 (Scaly) Good Good
27 (Revenge) Good Good
28 (Wilds) Good Good
29 (Begins) Good N/A
30 (Vault) Good Good
31 (Transmuter's) Good Golden
32 (Zahadran) Good Good
33 (Belly) Good Good
34 (Cage) Good Good
35a (Halls) Good Golden
35b (Thief) Good Golden
36 (Talons) Good Golden
37 I thought I had this, but I can't find it
38 (Escape) Good Golden
39 (Ruins) Good Golden
40 (Devil) Good Good
41 (Arrows) Good Good
42 (Stonearm) Good Golden
43 (Curse) Good Good
44 (Caverns) Good Good
45 (Malice) Good Golden
46 (Treasure) Good Golden
47 (Tears) Good Good
48 (Continues) Good N/A
49 (Palace) Good Golden
50 (Overlord) Good Golden
51 (Whiterock) N/A Good
51.5 (Sinister) Good Golden
52 (Fiend) Good N/A
53 (Sellswords) N/A Golden
54 (Forges) N/A Golden
55 (Isle) N/A Golden

So what have we learned

1) Right throughut it's 3rd ed run, the DCC line kept a consistent mission statement on it's covers (apart from DCC51)
2) The first known appearance of "Golden" in the intros was way back in DCC2 (although I have the 3.5ed reprint)
3) Harley and I have different versions of DCC 28 (Mine definitely uses "Good" in the intro, not "Golden")
4) The 4e versions of the DCC line have dropped the mission statement from the covers
5) There appears to be no discernable pattern as to why some DCC intros use "Good" and some use "Golden"
6) Much as it might displease Adrian, it doesn't appear to be Harley's fault :)

I don't know where this has got us, but I hope it is helpful.

Frank

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Last edited by frank5471uk on Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:17 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:44 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:12 pm
Posts: 57
WOW, that was outstanding work!


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Tight-Lipped Warlock
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Location: In a galaxy far, far, away (Missouri)
frank5471uk,

You have WAY too much time on your hands! :lol:

But I do want to complement you, again, for your keen signature. I still love the "10" quote.


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:07 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
JediOre wrote:
You have WAY too much time on your hands! :lol:


I wish ! I got in late last night (after going to a rock concert and drinking too much), way after midnight.

Somehow, instead of going to bed, I found myself going through the DCC collection cataloguing the intros !!!! Seemed a good idea at the time. Anyway, got to bed around 2am and had to get up at 7:30am today (on a Saturday !!) to take the kids to their piano lessons and badminton sessions. Believe me, the cataloguing exercise didn't seem such a good idea then :(

Furthermore, when I look at what the next few days hold

- I am DMing my regular weekly session on Mon and have yet to prepare for that.

- My better half has grand plans for me clearing a lot of debris from the garden today

- The kids will need help with homework later today

- There is something mysteriously wrong with my aquarium that is killing my fish and I need to diagnose the problem

- I've got a huge gaming weekend coming up in November that I have promised to provide a load of 3D terrain for (my 3D terrain dungeons are legendary, but do take a heck of significant amoun of time to prepare).

- Work is hectic at the moment, with me usually managing a 50-60 hour week and I have to stay away at least two nights next week.

Other than that, I have LOADS of spare time :lol:

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:42 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
Posts: 2690
Location: San Jose, CA
Wow Frank, that's impressive detective work! Hey, while you're at it, would you also be able to tell me where I left my car keys? I think I misplaced them... ;)

Seriously, though, the first use of the "golden" term was by Mike Mearls on DCC #2. I originally drafted the DCC mission statement and sent it to Jeff Quinn and Mike Mearls to write the first two modules. They both tweaked it slightly and I specifically remember that Mike used the phrase "golden age" instead of "good old days." I ended up integrating some of their tweaks into the final phrasing. My guess is that the DCC #1 and #2 manuscripts still ended up slightly different, and then the two versions propagated depending on whether subsequent authors used #1 or #2 as their model. The covers probably remained consistent because I've been doing the same "Save As..." process on each prior cover to do the next one since DCC #1.

Sounds like we have a trivia contest in the making...

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Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:16 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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Location: Left Coast, USA
frank5471uk wrote:
my 3D terrain dungeons are legendary, but do take a heck of significant amoun of time to prepare.

Pictures, good sir, pictures! ...All in good time, of course... perhaps Sunday evening? :P

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:57 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
GnomeBoy wrote:
frank5471uk wrote:
my 3D terrain dungeons are legendary, but do take a heck of significant amoun of time to prepare.

Pictures, good sir, pictures! ...All in good time, of course... perhaps Sunday evening? :P


Of course, when I say legendary, I mean legendary in the group of 15 or so gamers I play with, not legendary as in Led Zep :oops:

However, I am proud of the stuff I have produced and can resist everything but temptation, so I might as well share a couple of pictures.

We'll start off with my first cardstock effort from about 3 years ago. It was a village that I produced using downloadable PDFs mostly from a company called WorldWorks Games. It's a little primitive compared to some of the stuff I am doing now, but it'll be interesting for you to judge the progression.

These first two pictures are from when I first set it (the village of Mervyn's Stairway) up in my living room

Image

Image

The next few photos are "in game" shots which give you a bit more of the sense of scale

Image

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Hope you like them. Please bear in mind that they were a first effort and it does get better, but I still remember (having kept the existance of the terrain away from the players) their faces when they saw it for the first time and one of them declaring "it was the best dungeon he had ever played in".

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
My next project was a tad more ambitious then the village - a full on castle. Unlike the village, the castle has an exterior AND an interior and it took a serious amount of effort to build. The shots below are low res, but they do a good job of showing the advance between the village and this.

I'll post some shots of the interior AND the castle being used "in game" in another post a bit later.

Image

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Next up, some shots of the interior.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:37 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
Now here are some shots of the interior of the lower floor.

Image

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Image

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Next up there will be some interior shots of the upper floors (shout if you are getting bored).

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:09 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
goodmangames wrote:
Wow Frank, that's impressive detective work! Hey, while you're at it, would you also be able to tell me where I left my car keys? I think I misplaced them... ;)

Seriously, though, the first use of the "golden" term was by Mike Mearls on DCC #2. I originally drafted the DCC mission statement and sent it to Jeff Quinn and Mike Mearls to write the first two modules. They both tweaked it slightly and I specifically remember that Mike used the phrase "golden age" instead of "good old days." I ended up integrating some of their tweaks into the final phrasing. My guess is that the DCC #1 and #2 manuscripts still ended up slightly different, and then the two versions propagated depending on whether subsequent authors used #1 or #2 as their model. The covers probably remained consistent because I've been doing the same "Save As..." process on each prior cover to do the next one since DCC #1.

Sounds like we have a trivia contest in the making...


Well, that sheds a bit of light on things. Thanks Joe.

BTW, if you want a real hard trivia (in the UK we often call them pub quiz's) question, try asking someone to quote John Seaveys opening para from DCC 6 - Temple of the Dragon Cult. It's the ONLY DCC that plough's it's own furrow as far as an intro goes

"You enter a ten by ten room ... and YOU DIE!" All right, so maybe this adventure will be a little easier than that, but we've designed it as an old-school dungeon crawl. The monsters are mean, the rogue needs to go in the front checking for traps, and NPC interaction will be taking place at the end of a broadsword. So get out your lucky D20, start thinking in terms of party order, and prepare to deal with both dungeons and dragons.

Thematically similar to the two main variants but very different in terms of words used. I wonder why John decided to do this ?

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Tight-Lipped Warlock
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WOW! :shock:

My mind has been boggled. I can only imagine the time you placed into making these show pieces and the depth you guys play at. That would make even my old timers, myself included, be interested in using minis.

WOW!


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:16 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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Ahem, Mr. 5471, when is your next session again? I'm hovering my mouse over Expedia.com right NOW.

Also, I get to add +1 to my threadjacking abilities evidently... :mrgreen:

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:17 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

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Posts: 78
GnomeBoy wrote:
Ahem, Mr. 5471, when is your next session again? I'm hovering my mouse over Expedia.com right NOW.

Also, I get to add +1 to my threadjacking abilities evidently... :mrgreen:


Gnomeboy

Thanks very much for the nice comments. I sometimes find myself looking at the pictures now and only seeing the flaws in the models, not the overall effect. Comments like yours remind me that we do something special in (some) of our games. I am trying to use Aereth to build a new world for my gamers (we only started using Aereth earlier this year) and this allied to the use of terrain is making for a truly immersive experience.

Honestly, if any americans find themselves in London and at a loose end, drop me a line and I'll set up a game - or just go for a drink !

Finally, I am very conscious of the fact that the photos may/will hijack the thread. If a moderator feels that I should put them in a different thread, just let me know. Actually, it has been an opportune moment to reload my photos up to an internet library as the old host I used to use is no longer in operation.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:19 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
JediOre wrote:
WOW! :shock:

My mind has been boggled. I can only imagine the time you placed into making these show pieces and the depth you guys play at. That would make even my old timers, myself included, be interested in using minis.

WOW!


Thanks JediOre. The use of terrrain and minis is expensive in terms of time and cost, but imho, well worth it. Of course sessions like the ones shown above (and shortly below) can only be done once or twice a year. Most of our weekly sessions are simple battlemap affairs with a handful of minis and the odd prop.

Frank

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Last edited by frank5471uk on Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:35 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

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Posts: 78
Here are a few more photos showing the interiors of the castle towers, the stable and the upper floors.

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Next up I'll post a few "in game" shots to show you what the set-up looked like in use.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: DCC Ethos
PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:06 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
OK, if you're bored of the castle by now, you might want to skip this post (there will be photos of a sewer complex, a dragon's lair and some dwarven forge layouts coming one day soon).

Here are the "in-game" photos of the castle from a dungeon I ran earlier this year. It was a whole weekend job (15th level 3.5ed characters) and was horrendously complex to DM, but the "wow" factor from the players made it all worth while.

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Phew ! That's your lot as far as the castle goes. I hope you enjoyed it. My apologies to Welland_Warrior for subverting his thread (although I did put a fair bit of effort into the original question as well :) )

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