Hamakto wrote:Those two statements are what cause big issues with alignment. Most creatures are not born with an alignment. They are born neutral and learn from their environment Law/Chaos/Good/Evil.
Elves are not born Neutral. They are born Chaotic. Those of sorcerous lineage are not born neutral either. There's no such thing as a "Neutral" or "Lawful" Elf. At least not until D&D REALLY started watering down alignment into the swill-colored nothingness it is today.
The Appendix N application of Law vs. Chaos fits much closer to how Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay handles it than how the typical D&D player thinks of it. D&D never did a good job of explaining Law vs. Chaos. Therefore, most D&D players have no clue at all what alignment means.
They think it stands for some sort of moral code or roleplaying guide to actions. Like they can chart it out to say "Superman" is "Lawful Good" and Batman is "Chaotic Good" and Wolverine is "Chaotic Neutral". Um... No. Not even close.
Superman and Wolverine are Chaotic by their very existence. Unless Superman is the tool of some divine power imposing order upon the world -- which it's fairly clear he's not. He gets his powers from the Sun. Not from the Sun GOD. Wolverine is a mutant. 'Nuff said.
Batman? Probably Neutral (which I prefer to think of as Unaligned just because True Neutral is impossible for most people to grasp).
Hamakto wrote:In some societies owning slaves is legal. The people can even be of good alignment if they treat them well... or evil if they abuse them. It all depends on how they are raised. Now an Orc is evil because of their environment and how they are raised. You could even argue that they are naturally violent. But that does not guarantee evil. It may not make them welcome in civilized society. And by getting excluded time and time again (with prejudice with how they look), they would turn further bitter and violet and eventually turn evil again as they seek vengeance.
This would suggest that alignment in D&D is a fluid designation. Such that a character can shift from Good-Evil in the span of a single adventure and multiple times even in the same level. That this alignment shifting is commonplace. Abuse slave, shift to Evil alignment. Treat slaves well, make amends -- shift to Good alignment.
That doesn't hold with my experience of alignment in D&D. And it doesn't hold with the Law/Chaos represented in Appendix N. Conan never shifts away from what I would argue is pretty hardline Neutral. Elric is pretty much just Chaotic.
Hamakto wrote:The problem with Lawful/Chaos only alignment is at that point, you should probably not have bother to have an alignment. It does not adequately describe a character for various spell effects.
I disagree. LotFP works fine without the Good/Evil distinction. As did B/X. There is a lack of understanding of WHAT Lawful and Chaotic MEANS among D&D gamers. Your statement illustrates that point.
For LotFP, "Detect Evil" or "Protection against Evil" becomes contextual. As it should be. It would protect you against a Paladin trying to slay you as surely as it would protect you against a horde of Zombies trying to eat your brain. If the target has "evil intent against you or your allies" (in some cases) that's considered "evil" from where you're standing. It makes the distinction between Good and Evil much less of a caricature and much more palpable, IMO.
As a fun exercise, take a hardline Lawful Good Witch Hunter. He's good. He believes he's good. But it's an
interpretation of good that modern thinkers would find appalling. But by D&D standards, he's Good without reproach. He only slays the corrupted, never the innocent. Have him try to cleanse the world of the party's Magic User. Witches are evil. Witchery is a sign of evil. It must be expunged. Not at all a whacky moral notion in the genre.
See how 3e Detect Evil and Protection against Evil works against him. In short, it
doesn't.
Or even the prototypical Chaotic Neutral Barbarian whose superstitious beliefs compel him to slay all spellcasters. I've been on the receiving end of this one. It's not fun. And derails the game.
Alignment in D&D is a mess.
Hamakto wrote:Plus, most gamers like playing good characters. They like being heroic and defeating evil. Many gamers will curtail their more violent impulses (mass murder, etc) to keep the good tag on their character sheet.
Um... I disagree. Most players will find creative ways to rationalize inhuman behavior to keep their alignment. But will not curtail their actions. They're humans. That's what humans do. Overflowing penitentiaries and a 50% divorce rate prove that case.
Alignment, used in the way described, is a barrier to play. That's why it's been marginalized more and more the farther the editions have moved along.
What does Alignment mean mechanically in 4e? Nothing. Why is that? Because the designers of 4e recognized it was pointless (at best) and a barrier (at worst). They understand the Law/Chaos thing only insofar as the prototypical D&D player might -- which is to say not at all.
Hamakto wrote:Where am I going with this? Without alignment the party really descends into the realm of just being money grabbing mercs with no morals... no ethics... and out for themselves.
I disagree strongly on a number of levels. But most of all here...
goodmangames wrote:
You’re no hero.
You’re a reaver, a cutpurse, a heathen-slayer, a tight-lipped warlock guarding long-dead secrets. You seek gold and glory, winning it with sword and spell, caked in the blood and filth of the weak, the dark, the demons, and the vanquished. There are treasures to be won deep underneath, and you shall have them.
Return to the glory days of fantasy with the Dungeon Crawl Classics Role Playing Game. Adventure as 1974 intended you to, with modern rules grounded in the origins of sword & sorcery. Fast play, cryptic secrets, and a mysterious past await you: turn the page…
It says right there: "You’re no hero". It backs it up with "You’re a reaver, a cutpurse, a heathen-slayer, a tight-lipped warlock guarding long-dead secrets".
How does Good exist in that meme? At best, every one of those is Neutral on the Good-Evil axis. So what's the point of HAVING a Good-Evil axis? Is it to designate who's wearing Black and Navy Blue?
Simply put, if you're taking me back to "the glory days of fantasy", you're taking me back to OD&D. Says it right there on the label -- 1974.
There was no Chaotic Good in OD&D. Only Chaotic.
And that's just fine with me.