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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:19 pm 
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fireinthedust wrote:
Another thought: maybe space would be better served with more magic items and monsters than rules. Also spells (hoping that wizards can still collect spells on the fly, like in 3e, and add them to their books).


My concern is that I would rather have tables for generating magic items than a shopping list, and have wizards call on dark forces or quest for iron-bound tomes down in the sunken vaults of where-ever to gain new spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:30 pm 
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goodmangames wrote:
If the overall attack roll hits, AND that d3 is a 3 or better, the warrior can perform a cool stunt declared at moment of attack. We call this a Mighty Deed of Arms.


I'd like to know what you mean by this (bold is my emphasis).

I hope you don't intend this declaration to be made before the dice are rolled. In that case, everyone will get rather fatigued by trying to think up MDAs and declaring them for every attack role and before they know if they are successful or not.

What I suspect you mean is that each player's MDA needs to be stated and then implemented before the next character rolls for a hit, since the first character's MDA may affect what can be done by subsequent attackers.

Then again, it could have just been a turn of phrase without any intended rules meaning.

It's a nice mechanic and also similar to what Mongoose Runequest II combat introduced (and which received rave reviews).

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:30 pm 
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On crits: Why attach crits to the attack roll? attach it to the damage roll. max damage dice are rerolled - once. Yes, a dagger will crit more often, but 2d4 isn't gonna break the game. Just stay away from weapons that do 4d4. That could get interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:34 pm 
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geordie racer wrote:
My concern is that I would rather have tables for generating magic items than a shopping list, and have wizards call on dark forces or quest for iron-bound tomes down in the sunken vaults of where-ever to gain new spells.


I agree. Something along the lines of the Random Esoteric Magic Item Table. Or the artifact tables in Realms of Crawling Chaos.


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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:53 am 
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Stainless wrote:
goodmangames wrote:
If the overall attack roll hits, AND that d3 is a 3 or better, the warrior can perform a cool stunt declared at moment of attack. We call this a Mighty Deed of Arms.


I'd like to know what you mean by this...

Assuming I understand it's working correctly from one playtest: You tell the DM what you want to do. Then you roll, and determine if you were successful or not.

I mean, really, you should always be telling the DM and the group what you're doing, so it's not like it's adding anything to the mix -- except the chance to do, well, mighty deeds... This gives you a concrete reason to say something more than just "I hit him again". You're encouraged to think of ways to turn the encounter to your party's advantage by playing smart.

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Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be DCC Monsters

PbP Purple Planeteers!

Havarth • Cleric/Zikcub • Animal trainr • L
S11 A11 S9 P15 I9 L7
AC10, HP12, R0 F1 W2
Glaive+0 1-10
Club+0 1-4
X' chain, sack
Bless, Dtct Ev, Prot fm Evil, Word oCmmnd

Lucius • Cleric/Verlore • Slave • N
S13 A11 S8 P15 I11 L11
AC10+, HP6, R0 F0 W2
Sword+1 _
Club+1 2-5
Hide armor, flint/steel, green stone, oil 1
Crit table +1
Dark, Holy Sanct, Resist Cold/Heat, Word o Cmmnd

Toby • Squire
S13 A10 S14 P15 I16 L9
AC10+, hp3, R0 F1 W1
Lg swrd+1 2-9
Scale armor, sack, helm, L’ rope, torch • Com, Chaos, Hobgob

Kelven • Smuggler
S14 A8 S11 P12 I7 L10
AC9+, hp2(4), In-1, R-1 F0 W0
Sword+1 _
Staff+1 or Sling -1 2-5
Scale armr, waterprf sack, L’ rope, torch, 39cp

Runes:https://i.imgur.com/xGUofHk.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:44 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
Assuming I understand it's working correctly from one playtest: You tell the DM what you want to do. Then you roll, and determine if you were successful or not.

I mean, really, you should always be telling the DM and the group what you're doing, so it's not like it's adding anything to the mix -- except the chance to do, well, mighty deeds... This gives you a concrete reason to say something more than just "I hit him again". You're encouraged to think of ways to turn the encounter to your party's advantage by playing smart.


I agree with what you said here. My understanding is that players should describe their actions each turn to add a better feel and atmosphere to the game. If you roll high, you actually do that instead of just a regular hit.

Still have to see it in action.... *sigh*

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 pm 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
Stainless wrote:
goodmangames wrote:
If the overall attack roll hits, AND that d3 is a 3 or better, the warrior can perform a cool stunt declared at moment of attack. We call this a Mighty Deed of Arms.


I'd like to know what you mean by this...

Assuming I understand it's working correctly from one playtest: You tell the DM what you want to do. Then you roll, and determine if you were successful or not.

I mean, really, you should always be telling the DM and the group what you're doing, so it's not like it's adding anything to the mix -- except the chance to do, well, mighty deeds... This gives you a concrete reason to say something more than just "I hit him again". You're encouraged to think of ways to turn the encounter to your party's advantage by playing smart.


Oh dear, now I do have an issue with that.

I understand what you're saying about the, "I hit him again" syndrome, but I really don't want to be thinking up and stating MDAs for every attack with the hope that I get lucky. It will only take seconds for any given attack, but those seconds will add up for all the attack rolls for all the players not to mention the mental energy of trying to anticipate the outcome and think up the MDA at each blow (yes I know RPGs are about imagination and making things up, but when it's at the rate of every attack roll....). There's also the fatigue on the DM who will have to keep track and remember all the MDA statements each round; Think of all the disputes along the lines of, "I said that", "I don't remember you saying that"...

Of course you won't have to state an MDA, but human nature means most will and then you're going to feel a chump when you didn't state one but manage to get a really good roll (and there'll be pressure on DMs to be either lenient or stick by the rules).

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:31 am 
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Stainless wrote:
Oh dear, now I do have an issue with that.

I understand what you're saying about the, "I hit him again" syndrome, but I really don't want to be thinking up and stating MDAs for every attack with the hope that I get lucky. It will only take seconds for any given attack, but those seconds will add up for all the attack rolls for all the players not to mention the mental energy of trying to anticipate the outcome and think up the MDA at each blow (yes I know RPGs are about imagination and making things up, but when it's at the rate of every attack roll....). There's also the fatigue on the DM who will have to keep track and remember all the MDA statements each round; Think of all the disputes along the lines of, "I said that", "I don't remember you saying that"...

Of course you won't have to state an MDA, but human nature means most will and then you're going to feel a chump when you didn't state one but manage to get a really good roll (and there'll be pressure on DMs to be either lenient or stick by the rules).



I heard the MDAs won't be like criticals, though, they're more descriptive. If so, like the Leaping off and orc and stabbing a sorcerer-priest in the eye maneuver, they're supposed to be cinematic actions, and replace what feats do in the game. I'll want to see the finished product before deciding, as at this point we don't really know how they work. In theory, through playtesting, they could decide to pitch the entire idea when creative comes up with a great miniatures mechanic.


Magic Items & Spells: I didn't mean casting like sorcerers. I meant that wizards should be able to find new spells and learn them as they adventure (on the fly *learning*, not casting), and *not* just when they go up a level.

As for magic items: my take on them is that magic items are artifacts with names, every one unique. I'd like a list of unique magic items. Generic stuff can be adamantine, that sort of thing, that's not enchanted per se. Random generation tables are great, sure, but a list of swords like "the doubling sword of chaos" would be sweet. A sort of unofficial checklist of actual rather than generic swords. In my setting there right now there is an actual flametongue sword, and an actual frostbrand, a specific Lifedrinker, and The Vorpal Sword.


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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:41 pm 
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Stainless wrote:
Oh dear, now I do have an issue with that.

I understand what you're saying about the, "I hit him again" syndrome, but I really don't want to be thinking up and stating MDAs for every attack with the hope that I get lucky. It will only take seconds for any given attack, but those seconds will add up for all the attack rolls for all the players not to mention the mental energy of trying to anticipate the outcome and think up the MDA at each blow (yes I know RPGs are about imagination and making things up, but when it's at the rate of every attack roll....). There's also the fatigue on the DM who will have to keep track and remember all the MDA statements each round; Think of all the disputes along the lines of, "I said that", "I don't remember you saying that"...

Of course you won't have to state an MDA, but human nature means most will and then you're going to feel a chump when you didn't state one but manage to get a really good roll (and there'll be pressure on DMs to be either lenient or stick by the rules).

I'm confused by your "have to keep track and remember"... As far as I've played it and thought about it, MDAs are just part your action for the round but its a bigger, more out-of-the-box type of thing than other classes can do in terms of physical daring do. In terms of adaptation from 3e, it's a replacement for feats, so in some degree it's no different than when someone uses Manyshot, or Cleave. I'm not clear on what more there is to remember with MDAs than there would be in any given encounter in general. If you can remember that the wizard has the ogre in a hold monster spell, you can remember the outcome of a MDA.

As for player abuse, if they have one in mind when it's their turn, cool. Adjudicate as you see fit. If they don't, but want to hold up the game thinking of one, don't let them hold up the game. Under 3e, when I have a player that is unsure of what they want to do when I get to their turn, I give them a moment -- and if they still have nothing, I give them the index card with their initiative on it. Their action is to delay. When they are ready to jump back in at a later initiative, they just need to hand me their card back. I didn't see MDAs slow down the fight in the playtest, and I'm wondering what you see about them that's going to slow things down...

Is it clear that MDA aren't just about attacking, per se? I think they could reasonably be used to simulate things like Spring Attack (leaving and reentering cover with, say, a ranged attack in the middle) and tricky horse-riding maneuvers, as well...

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Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be DCC Monsters

PbP Purple Planeteers!

Havarth • Cleric/Zikcub • Animal trainr • L
S11 A11 S9 P15 I9 L7
AC10, HP12, R0 F1 W2
Glaive+0 1-10
Club+0 1-4
X' chain, sack
Bless, Dtct Ev, Prot fm Evil, Word oCmmnd

Lucius • Cleric/Verlore • Slave • N
S13 A11 S8 P15 I11 L11
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Sword+1 _
Club+1 2-5
Hide armor, flint/steel, green stone, oil 1
Crit table +1
Dark, Holy Sanct, Resist Cold/Heat, Word o Cmmnd

Toby • Squire
S13 A10 S14 P15 I16 L9
AC10+, hp3, R0 F1 W1
Lg swrd+1 2-9
Scale armor, sack, helm, L’ rope, torch • Com, Chaos, Hobgob

Kelven • Smuggler
S14 A8 S11 P12 I7 L10
AC9+, hp2(4), In-1, R-1 F0 W0
Sword+1 _
Staff+1 or Sling -1 2-5
Scale armr, waterprf sack, L’ rope, torch, 39cp

Runes:https://i.imgur.com/xGUofHk.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:01 am 
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GnomeBoy

OK, that's reassuring. In fact I haven't played D&D since 1e AD&D (I probably played my last game around 1988). Thus, 2e, 3e, 3.5e and 4e have all passed me by. I've never played a game with these new fangled ideas like feats, hindrances, edges, fate points, etc. Thus, I don't have any comparative experience. Therefore, if people with comparable experience don't think there is a problem, I'll trust their experience and hope for the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:29 am 
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Stainless

I'm glad I could put your mind at ease -- I don't think MDAs are anything to worry about. From a First Edition perspective, it lets fighter types sometimes do 'far out stuff' they way wizards can, but it's focused on physical action -- think, Jackie Chan or Indiana Jones, or Bruce Willis or someone similar... When I played 1e, we tried to do stuff like that, but there was no mechanic for it, and it pretty much came down to whether the DM liked your idea or not (which could expose favoritism). MDA is a simple mechanic for running that kind of thing.

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Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be DCC Monsters

PbP Purple Planeteers!

Havarth • Cleric/Zikcub • Animal trainr • L
S11 A11 S9 P15 I9 L7
AC10, HP12, R0 F1 W2
Glaive+0 1-10
Club+0 1-4
X' chain, sack
Bless, Dtct Ev, Prot fm Evil, Word oCmmnd

Lucius • Cleric/Verlore • Slave • N
S13 A11 S8 P15 I11 L11
AC10+, HP6, R0 F0 W2
Sword+1 _
Club+1 2-5
Hide armor, flint/steel, green stone, oil 1
Crit table +1
Dark, Holy Sanct, Resist Cold/Heat, Word o Cmmnd

Toby • Squire
S13 A10 S14 P15 I16 L9
AC10+, hp3, R0 F1 W1
Lg swrd+1 2-9
Scale armor, sack, helm, L’ rope, torch • Com, Chaos, Hobgob

Kelven • Smuggler
S14 A8 S11 P12 I7 L10
AC9+, hp2(4), In-1, R-1 F0 W0
Sword+1 _
Staff+1 or Sling -1 2-5
Scale armr, waterprf sack, L’ rope, torch, 39cp

Runes:https://i.imgur.com/xGUofHk.jpg
RIP
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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:42 pm 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
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Just noticed your .sig.

I can date when I first started roleplaying because it was when Judges Guild released the Ready Ref Sheets (they were all we had as we couldn't yet afford the rule books). 1978. Good to see the old guard are still around.

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Well, I think there be plenty of Old Guard around these parts. The birthday tracker at the bottom of the board Index page seems to regularly feature congrats for folks accumulating 40+ years... :)

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Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be DCC Monsters

PbP Purple Planeteers!

Havarth • Cleric/Zikcub • Animal trainr • L
S11 A11 S9 P15 I9 L7
AC10, HP12, R0 F1 W2
Glaive+0 1-10
Club+0 1-4
X' chain, sack
Bless, Dtct Ev, Prot fm Evil, Word oCmmnd

Lucius • Cleric/Verlore • Slave • N
S13 A11 S8 P15 I11 L11
AC10+, HP6, R0 F0 W2
Sword+1 _
Club+1 2-5
Hide armor, flint/steel, green stone, oil 1
Crit table +1
Dark, Holy Sanct, Resist Cold/Heat, Word o Cmmnd

Toby • Squire
S13 A10 S14 P15 I16 L9
AC10+, hp3, R0 F1 W1
Lg swrd+1 2-9
Scale armor, sack, helm, L’ rope, torch • Com, Chaos, Hobgob

Kelven • Smuggler
S14 A8 S11 P12 I7 L10
AC9+, hp2(4), In-1, R-1 F0 W0
Sword+1 _
Staff+1 or Sling -1 2-5
Scale armr, waterprf sack, L’ rope, torch, 39cp

Runes:https://i.imgur.com/xGUofHk.jpg
RIP
Stinky Pete, Ostler — Spine snapped by tackling Kith


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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:32 pm 
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hah true, not there yet thankfully! I started on BECMI with my mates older brother at 7 in 1980, so not a seventies gamer.

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:42 pm 
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The warrior mechanics had me worried me about this game but this thread has me convinced this will be my "new D&D" game. I just ordered a set of Zocchi dice after reading this. Definitely buying this game. I am a bit confused though about what happens when you want to do something that is "not so cinematic" but has extra effects. For instance, if a player states he wants to attack the orc with his sword and then shield-bash him to try and stun/rattle/knockback, what happens?

Does the DM states he has to choose one attack, the sword attack or the shield bash as his attack this round? In effect the player is just trying to get two attacks at once.
Does the player roll for the sword attack regularly and if he also gets a 3+ on the secondary die hit with the shield? If so I assume the DM must assign a penalty (ie. -4 to hit) or this sort of thing will be constant every attack. At high levels you will basically always get a shield bash which is lame.

Or what if I want to smash the orc on his head with my hammer and hope to stun him?

Unless the GM applies a penalty of some sort (half damage or a penalty to hit) there is really no reason for a player NOT to at least default to this if they can't think of anything more creative. Hopefully someone with playtest experience can put my confusion and concerns to rest. I REALLY, REALLY like this mechanic but I'm worried players will stop being creative and default to a few basic manoeuvres and the whole thing will become more cumbersome and annoying than it's worth at higher levels.

*Editted to include the intent of the shield bash (stun/rattle/knockback).


Last edited by bholmes4 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:58 pm 
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bholmes4 wrote:
The warrior mechanics had me worried me about this game but this thread has me convinced this will be my "new D&D" game. I just ordered a set of Zocchi dice after reading this. Definitely buying this game. I am a bit confused though about what happens when you want to do something that is "not so cinematic" but has extra effects. For instance, if a player states he wants to attack the orc with his sword and then shield-bash him, what happens?


Well... I don't have the rules so I'm COMPLETELY talking out of my nether-realms.

But if I were adjudicating that situation, I'd treat it like a 2-Weapon Attack. The shield could not be used in AC for that round, though. Because it's being used as a second weapon. So, ala my house rule for two-weapon attacks, the fighter would roll to hit normally, then roll normal damage and a 1d4 for the shield -- inflicting whichever damage is better.

If the attack turned out to be an MDA, then I'd say either the shield damage adds to the weapon damage, the shield damage can be inflicted on a second, nearby opponent or the attack can be resolved as per usual but the character can have his +1 to AC back. Player choice.

Because that's really what it's all about, isn't it? :D

I'm looking forward to making more on-the-fly rulings in this manner. And I think this is the direction DCC will be heading.

I prefer to master a simple, yet flexible, rules system like B/X D&D, FASERIP Marvel or Heroquest and then bend it to suit the needs at the table than have an inflexible, yet complete, rules system.

I'd rather fly by the seat of my pants than be shot out of a catapult.


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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:24 pm 
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Good points and thanks for the response.

One thing I should have been clearer on though was that I intended the shield-bash as an attempt to stun/rattle or knockback the opponent, and perhaps add a tiny bit of damage but that's not the goal. If the player is just attempting to damage it's fairly straight forward as you point out. If you add in secondary effects though it becomes more complex.

I am a fan of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and like how players can attempt manoeuvres like shield bash that with a single roll of the dice pool can determine hit or miss, if the character is stunned/rattled, if damage was dealt etc. There is a variety of outcomes that are possible with every move and it makes for an interesting, cinematic experience if done well. I'm really hoping this game can capture some of that while retaining the simplicity of D&D (among other things).


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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:58 pm 
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bholmes4 wrote:
I am a fan of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and like how players can attempt manoeuvres like shield bash that with a single roll of the dice pool can determine hit or miss, if the character is stunned/rattled, if damage was dealt etc. There is a variety of outcomes that are possible with every move and it makes for an interesting, cinematic experience if done well. I'm really hoping this game can capture some of that while retaining the simplicity of D&D (among other things).


I agree. Hopefully there will be some examples of how to do different things like stunning an opponent or knocking someone back.


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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:14 am 
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Maybe the next designer's blog post will be about combat?

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:37 am 
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[quote=smathias]But if I were adjudicating that situation, I'd treat it like a 2-Weapon Attack. The shield could not be used in AC for that round, though. Because it's being used as a second weapon. So, ala my house rule for two-weapon attacks, the fighter would roll to hit normally, then roll normal damage and a 1d4 for the shield -- inflicting whichever damage is better.

If the attack turned out to be an MDA, then I'd say either the shield damage adds to the weapon damage, the shield damage can be inflicted on a second, nearby opponent or the attack can be resolved as per usual but the character can have his +1 to AC back. Player choice.[/quote]

I am completely in the dark also here, but think I would agree with you. Treat it as a two weapon attack. But I would treat it like this:

1. Two weapon attacks... if we use an earlier posting... d16 and d14 instead of d20's.
2. The MDoA to bull rush (i.e. move his back) would be allowed. The MDoA of a stun would be disallowed. Stun would be a critical/extra damage sort of effect and would fall outside of what I understand the scope of MDoA to be.
3. Since bull rush would require an MDoA roll, you would pull it off if you hit and made your MDoA roll. If you missed but made your MDoA roll, you would still keep your bonus to AC for the shield with a -1 penalty to AC. But if you fail the roll, you would lose your AC bonus for the shield until your next combat round.

The reason for the -1 penalty is that you used a shield as a weapon that round, but since you were 'mighty' you still get some benefit from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Warrior mechanics
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:26 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:53 am
Posts: 379
Hamakto wrote:
1. Two weapon attacks... if we use an earlier posting... d16 and d14 instead of d20's.
2. The MDoA to bull rush (i.e. move his back) would be allowed. The MDoA of a stun would be disallowed. Stun would be a critical/extra damage sort of effect and would fall outside of what I understand the scope of MDoA to be.
3. Since bull rush would require an MDoA roll, you would pull it off if you hit and made your MDoA roll. If you missed but made your MDoA roll, you would still keep your bonus to AC for the shield with a -1 penalty to AC. But if you fail the roll, you would lose your AC bonus for the shield until your next combat round.

The reason for the -1 penalty is that you used a shield as a weapon that round, but since you were 'mighty' you still get some benefit from it.


Hmm that works for me, so long as their are crit tables for blunt weapons (or even more specifically, shields) that increase the chances for a stun effect. I'm not a huge fan of having too many crit tables but since warriors don't get a whole lot of "cool powers", certainly I'd like to see edge/blunt/pierce at the minimum.

This is starting to make a bit more sense to me now (assuming you are close to what the truth is).


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