Experience

[geordie racer]

How is the rpg going to handle advancement, is it tied to Appendix N or is it 'vanilla' i.e is it XP for killing monsters, gaining gold, achieving objectives, exploration, a random advancement roll on a table at a session's end ?

[goodmangames]

I've spent some time wrestling with this one. The basic mechanism is traditional XP accumulation. But the question is, how do you accumulate those XP? Killing monsters obviously counts. What about earning gold? How about spending gold? And of course the other elements you mentioned. Right now it definitely includes killing monsters and the spending of gold for class-appropriate activities. Still tinkering with other ideas.

[Geoffrey]

A concern I have with xp for gold is the relative paucity of treasure (Smaug's hoard excepted) in what I've read of Appendix N. If the acquisition (or the spending) of gold is a major part of xp, then the Appendix N characters would never have gotten higher than 3rd level or so.

[DCCfan]

A concern I have with xp for gold is the relative paucity of treasure (Smaug's hoard excepted) in what I've read of Appendix N. If the acquisition (or the spending) of gold is a major part of xp, then the Appendix N characters would never have gotten higher than 3rd level or so.

So far I've read about Conan spending many hoards of treasure on wenching or losing them gambling. He even throws one away in a fit of grief at the death of his first love. I think that alone should be worth big XP. I can't ever remember a player doing this in any of my games. When I start playing the new DCC RPG I plan on rewarding any of these actions that pay homage to Appendix N characters.

[mshensley]

Quite a lot of the heroes in S&S stories are motivated by greed, so I think xp for gold is appropriate. I also think that xp should be gained for exploring and visiting new places. Many of the appendix N characters wandered quite a bit and xp gain is a way to motivate characters to do that as well.

[smathis]

I agree that XP for gold is appropriate. I've been using jrients' "Ale and Wenching" rules to great effect in my games. So far one player has wound up in the city watch's holding cell twice, another wound up 300 gp in debt to a crime lord and one woke up naked in a small, non-descript temple with a massive hangover and a bunch of monks wanting to follow him around like he was their god incarnate.

Not enough can be said about the "Ale and Wenching" chart.

[geordie racer]

XP for spending money is totally appropriate to help to emulate the more picaresque of Vance's tales. It isn't enough to earn it, they gotta keep hold of it long enough to spend it !

Maybe the XP for situational stuff like exploration can be added in the adventure modules themselves - if they are the first since the ancients to stand before the obsidian idol in the depths of the sunken city, that should be worth something ?

[mntnjeff]

Not enough can be said about the "Ale and Wenching" chart.

LOVE that chart! Wonderful flavor and some results that you can absolutely riff off of as a DM. One of the best tools in my aresenal...

I think adventuring should definitely be rewarded somehow. There was a fantastic article about that in one of the FightOn magazines. I think it was the last issue..but I could be wrong. It seemed to come up w/ a reasonable system of reward for certain actions related to exploration and adventure.

[geordie racer]

I think adventuring should definitely be rewarded somehow. There was a fantastic article about that in one of the FightOn magazines. I think it was the last issue..but I could be wrong. It seemed to come up w/ a reasonable system of reward for certain actions related to exploration and adventure.

The XP for exploration idea came from Jeff Rients, also in Fight On! Issue 8, and was also applied here

[DCCfan]

Where can I find jrients' Ale And Wenching rules? They sound like a good time.

[GnomeBoy]

Where can I find jrients' Ale And Wenching rules? They sound like a good time.

Haha! I was just looking for them myself -- I found them here: http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/12/par ... s-999.html

[DCCfan]

Where can I find jrients' Ale And Wenching rules? They sound like a good time.

Haha! I was just looking for them myself -- I found them here: http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/12/par ... s-999.html

Thanks!

[goodmangames]

That ale and wenching table is terrific!

[smathis]

That ale and wenching table is terrific!

Yes, it's a lot of fun in play too. It gives the games a Lankhmar feel and overall increases the fun of the downtime between one adventure and the next. Sometimes it brings in an adventure all its own.

[mshensley]

That ale and wenching table is terrific!

There's also a good article in issue 10 of the Dragon on this subject- D&D Option: Orgies, Inc.

Also, check out the town tables in Warhammer Quest sometime. There's a lot of hilarious things in there.

[mntnjeff]

There's also a good article in issue 10 of the Dragon on this subject- D&D Option: Orgies, Inc.

Ha! I'd totally forgotten that article. Wasn't that the one that had the illustration of the inside of the bar w/ goblins and girls all over each other? I remember that as a young man and thought it was FANTASTIC!

But Jeff R's chart is exactly the type of flavor that I'm looking for. Smathis hit it dead on when he said that it's very evocative of Lankhmar.

And I think it's a wonderful idea to build something into a game that's being run in today's "connected" world, that allows for "downtime" or "off screen" play. e.g. Our game is run every other week, we often have things going on through a blog that fill in those gaps. It would be neat to have a mechanic that could actually reward experience for things like this. I know that it's WAY beyond scope at this point... but it's a thought.

[Machpants]

Fantasy Craft has the best down time system that I have ever seen. You have a Prudence score which wittles away your cash between adventures, you get recovery from stress etc by debauchery and wine. It is very crunchy but once you get into it the FC rules are an awesome toolset (which does low fantasy to wuxia to high fantasy and everything else). Improves on 3Es speed of creating opponents too. But not at all old school if that is your only interest, very much of the 3E mindset.

[finarvyn]

I've spent some time wrestling with this one. The basic mechanism is traditional XP accumulation. But the question is, how do you accumulate those XP? Killing monsters obviously counts. What about earning gold? How about spending gold? And of course the other elements you mentioned. Right now it definitely includes killing monsters and the spending of gold for class-appropriate activities. Still tinkering with other ideas.

In my house game I've essentially thrown out XP entirely.

Killing monsters is a good measure, but I don't like gold acquisition any more as an XP boost because the gold itself is a bonus to the character and counting gold for both XP and as something to spend puts a lot of emphasis on the result and not the journey to get there. I also don't like using things like spell useage for XP because then either MU's burn random spells just for the XP or the MU gets an extra boost in XP that other characters might not have.

Why not base XP on actual play rather than the results? In other words, if a character actually gets together to run through an adventure that adventure is worth a number of XP whether they succeed or fail. Each surviving character gets those points just for having been there. (Sort of like Wedge Antillies getting XP for being in 3 of the Star Wars movies. He wasn't the star of any but he earned enough XP to get his own "X-Wing" series of books for it. )

Along the same line, XP could be measured in "adventues" or "quests" rather than points. Each quest might be one DCC module. Something like this:
Level 1 = Rookie = 0 quests
Level 2 = Newbie = 1 quest
Level 3 = Experienced = 2 quests
Level 4 = Hero = 4 quests
Level 5 = ... = 8 quests
Level 6 = ... = 16 quests
Level 7 = ... = 32 quests
Level 8 = Super Hero = 64 quests
and so on.

Just me thinking out loud....

[DCCfan]

I've spent some time wrestling with this one. The basic mechanism is traditional XP accumulation. But the question is, how do you accumulate those XP? Killing monsters obviously counts. What about earning gold? How about spending gold? And of course the other elements you mentioned. Right now it definitely includes killing monsters and the spending of gold for class-appropriate activities. Still tinkering with other ideas.

In my house game I've essentially thrown out XP entirely.

Killing monsters is a good measure, but I don't like gold acquisition any more as an XP boost because the gold itself is a bonus to the character and counting gold for both XP and as something to spend puts a lot of emphasis on the result and not the journey to get there. I also don't like using things like spell useage for XP because then either MU's burn random spells just for the XP or the MU gets an extra boost in XP that other characters might not have.

Why not base XP on actual play rather than the results? In other words, if a character actually gets together to run through an adventure that adventure is worth a number of XP whether they succeed or fail. Each surviving character gets those points just for having been there. (Sort of like Wedge Antillies getting XP for being in 3 of the Star Wars movies. He wasn't the star of any but he earned enough XP to get his own "X-Wing" series of books for it. )

Along the same line, XP could be measured in "adventues" or "quests" rather than points. Each quest might be one DCC module. Something like this:
Level 1 = Rookie = 0 quests
Level 2 = Newbie = 1 quest
Level 3 = Experienced = 2 quests
Level 4 = Hero = 4 quests
Level 5 = ... = 8 quests
Level 6 = ... = 16 quests
Level 7 = ... = 32 quests
Level 8 = Super Hero = 64 quests
and so on.

Just me thinking out loud....

I remember Paranoia 2E doing this with the Roy G. Biv system.
0= red
1= Orange
2-3= Yellow
4-5= Green ...and you get the idea.

[mshensley]

Fantasy Craft has the best down time system that I have ever seen. You have a Prudence score which wittles away your cash between adventures, you get recovery from stress etc by debauchery and wine. It is very crunchy but once you get into it the FC rules are an awesome toolset (which does low fantasy to wuxia to high fantasy and everything else). Improves on 3Es speed of creating opponents too. But not at all old school if that is your only interest, very much of the 3E mindset.

I need to check out Fantasy Craft sometime.

[finarvyn]

XP could be measured in "adventues" or "quests" rather than points. Each quest might be one DCC module. Something like this:
Level 1 = Rookie = 0 quests
Level 2 = Newbie = 1 quest
Level 3 = Experienced = 2 quests
Level 4 = Hero = 4 quests
Level 5 = ... = 8 quests
Level 6 = ... = 16 quests
Level 7 = ... = 32 quests
Level 8 = Super Hero = 64 quests
and so on.

I remember Paranoia 2E doing this with the Roy G. Biv system.
0= red
1= Orange
2-3= Yellow
4-5= Green ...and you get the idea.

I think that the old Dragonlance SAGA system game may have done something like this as well. I'm sure it's not a new idea, but certainly a lot easier than having to keep track of minutia XP the traditional way.

I just find that magic items and treasure have their own value, so I don't need to also count them as XP. I've tried a whole bunch of XP systems over the years and found that most of them had elements I wasn't thrilled with. Simple is better, I say!

[DCCfan]

IMO I think having greedy players is a good thing for the DM. More than one adventurer has met his end going after something shiny in the hopes of hitting that next level. If it becomes about simply surviving to gain a level I can see all kinds of situations where players just avoid encounters in an effort to rush to the boss at the end. I think gold needs to have some value beyond buying supplies and equipment.

[geordie racer]

If you wanted to take DCC rpg's use of randomization into the area of advancement I remember Geoffrey posting on Jim Raggi's site about a method:

At the conclusion of each session, each player rolls 1d20 for his character. On an adjusted roll of 20, the character gains a level. The roll is modified by +1 for each previous failed levelling roll at this level only.

Thus a newly 3rd level fighter completes a session. He will gain a level again on a roll of 20. If he fails, the next time he completes a session he gains a level on a 19+, then 18+, etc

and Lord Kilgore put together a Roll to Advance PDF

After a few sessions you could end up with a party of wildly differing levels.

[geordie racer]

Why not base XP on actual play rather than the results?... XP could be measured in "adventures" or "quests" rather than points.

This is how Forward To Adventure ! deals with advancement, it works better for modules and scenarios compared to sandboxes. The upside is the lack of book keeping and the greater variety of gameplay it allows - but if you want to focus the game on more sword and sorcery pursuits maybe it's better not to broaden the ways to advance beyond killing foes and spending loot.

[Machpants]

I like the idea of spending gold to get XP, and by that I mean spending it on ale and ladies of negotiable virtue, not armour! It makes no sense in the real world but I just like the idea.