"Fixing" DCC RPG

If it doesn't fit into a category above, then inscribe it here, O Mighty One...

Moderators: DJ LaBoss, finarvyn, michaelcurtis, Harley Stroh

Post Reply
atlascott
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:17 pm

"Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by atlascott » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:20 am

There are imbalances which are partially a function of my mistakes, but take them for what they are worth. No matter how you slice it, there are some issues.

1. You cannot allow players to make characters the munchkiny way they have in the past. This is my biggest mistake. 4d6, take the highest 3 breaks stuff. Letting players choose Class can create problems. Roll it straight, and let the dice fall as they may. if a PC has too many stat points, it negatively

2. Double big bad's hitpoints and grant them 50% magic resistance, and Saves which are 1.5 x their HD. Especially dragons, who are wusses without tweaking.

3. Double the cost of Spellburn. Simply, the Spellburn mechanic is grossly overpowered, and Clerics (Bless) and Halflings (Luck Sharing) make it easy for an average party of PCs's to beat the big bad with insufficiently negative consequences.

4. Make sure Patrons are the jealous, rotten bastiges they are meant to me. No one rides for free. Cash Ass or Grass...or horrible, horrible edicts from arcane powers which you refuse at your peril...

As I said, most of this is fixed with chargen which follows what's written in the book, which I did not do.

User avatar
GnomeBoy
Tyrant Master (Administrator)
Posts: 3744
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:46 pm
FLGS: Bizarro World
Location: Left Coast, USA
Contact:

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by GnomeBoy » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:43 pm

atlascott wrote:There are imbalances ... there are some issues...
Anybody contemplating massive Spellburn should be thinking carefully about it. Rather than changing the 'cost' of it, have you fully played up the consequences of it? ...Okay, so the Wizard burns himself silly and easily takes out the "big bad"... Oh, but wait -- there's another big bad heading this way right now? -- OR to get out of this area where you've easily squashed the "big bad" you're wading through a swamp... And who's only got a 4 Stamina, hmmm? Can you say 'debilitating swamp fever'...? And no, there's no time to rest and heal all the way up -- your Patron is calling and has a few things you need to take care of RIGHT NOW.

"Fixing" the game can be as simple as following all of the implications of the game... As you point out about playing Patrons as demanding.

And frankly, thinking in terms of "big bad", with everything 'building' to a grand finish, seems to generate it's own kind of trouble -- maybe try the "one damn thing after another" approach and see how the game goes...
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

User avatar
finarvyn
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 2486
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:42 am
FLGS: Fair Game
Location: Chicago suburbs
Contact:

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by finarvyn » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:28 am

GnomeBoy wrote:And frankly, thinking in terms of "big bad", with everything 'building' to a grand finish, seems to generate it's own kind of trouble -- maybe try the "one damn thing after another" approach and see how the game goes...
Actually, I like scenarios that lead up to the "big bad" and it can be quite frustrating to have him get whacked too early on. In addition to bulking him up, perhaps give him a way to escape if he gets hurt in an early encounter.
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson

User avatar
DM Cojo
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:47 pm
Location: Mount Pleasant, MI

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by DM Cojo » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:11 pm

I agree that spellburn can break a game, especially if the players know that it is at the end of the adventure and they can rest in the off-time between adventures. I have referenced this before, but here is the link to the discussion on alternate spellburn rules that we use in my group. These were created by one of my players, Chris, and they put a bit more harsh consequences on spellburn, as well as increasing the consequences based on how many points are spellburned. Check it out!

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 72&t=44802

bookish
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by bookish » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:08 pm

Very cool thread about spellburn consequences.

User avatar
Mad Mage
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:17 pm

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by Mad Mage » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:20 pm

Yeah... spellburn. In a con game it can be a game-changer, as a function of players knowing that it's a one-off adventure. The other classes often get played the same way (deity disapproval - pah!) for the same reason.

In my ongoing campaign, this problem seems to take care of itself. One of my wizards spell-burned herself to hell and back on a Patron Bond spell, only to choke and roll a "1." She single handedly caused the entire party to spend a month of game time doing nothing while she healed back up from that one.

I also have a few 4th level characters walking around in my campaign who have burnt their Luck stats down to the bare bone. So those players have responded by being much more cautious (because bad things are starting to rain down on them) AND upping their game play trying to score bonus Luck points from the judge. That's win-win for me.
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own.” ~ E. Gary Gygax

atlascott
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:17 pm

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by atlascott » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:58 pm

Rather than increasing the cost of Spellburn, I am considering capping ALL bonuses to spell results from every source (spellburn bless, etc,) to 3x spell level.

That means 1st level, your max casting bonus ourside of level and INT modifer is 2.
At 2nd, it is +6, 3rd it is +9, 4th is is +12, and so on.

This keeps 1-3 level players on the lower end of the results chart and takes the handcuffs off for higher level spellcasters.

Gameogre
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:14 pm
Location: Teleports at will.

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by Gameogre » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:39 pm

I agree that Magic in DCCRPG is wild and can get crazy pretty fast. More than other games it needs a careful overseeing by the guy running the game.

I don't see Spellburn as a bad thing myself. Sure, for a one shot If I felt like it was ruining the fun perhaps I might just have things turn out badly for the Crazy spellburning wizard. Really though I would try very hard to just go with the flow and let the dice fall how they will.

Why is not EVERY single monster/badguy/enemy gunning none stop for the party wizard? The WIZARD is THE THREAT! EVERYONE goes for the wizard,EVERYONE.

In my games the Wizards always have the entire party surrounding them and trying to protect them and STILL the Wizard gets killed more than any other class. It isn't fair, it isn't nice, but it is damn well the way the world works.

Magic is the end game for EVERYONE.

Why is that Wizard alive when the big badguy arrives on scene to be killed? It had dang well better be because he is one tricky $%$%$% and the entire party has pulled out all the stops to keep him alive and well.

Otherwise you are doing it wrong. This isn't a play style, this isn't up for debate. Magic KILLS in DCCRPG. In fact isn't what this thread is all about?

KILL THE WIZARD NOW! Should be written on the inside screen of every GM running the game.


It's like this. On the way home tomorrow you are going to be robbed by 4-6 psychotic bad guys! Look out they are trying to kill you! One has a slingshot! One has a brick! One guy is swinging his fists wildly in your direction while yelling "Gimmie you stuff and die!" The last guy is aiming a Machine Gun with a built in grenade launcher at you!

So you attack the slingshot?

KILL THE WIZARD is really the name of this game.
People just think it's Dungeon Crawl Classics Role Playing Game, but really....it's not.

You don't need to FIX the game, you need to FIX the reality the player characters live in.

Wizards should both inspire fear and anger in everyone they come across (like you would be with a man walking up to you with a armed Suitcase Nuke) as well as be living in a constant state of fear themselves. EVERYONE not directly on their side wants them dead....NOW.

well that's my thoughts on it anyway.

atlascott
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:17 pm

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by atlascott » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:30 pm

The point of the game, however, is not "The Epic Adventures of The Wizards and Elves!!!(and their human shields, the Warrior, Thief and Dwarf)"

the idea is, every class wants to feel important and get game opportunities to be powerful. Roleplaying bad things just makes the arcane spellcasters, yet again, the center of the entire game universe. So now, out of combat, everyone is obsessed with the spellcasters, as well as in combat.

You can ignore a broken rule, or you can fix it. I like to fix broke things.

I will probably implement some sort of max bonus from all sources, and if the caster exceeds the number, then they take unavailable corruption, or perhaps an increasing chance at Corruption. So for one point above the limit, maybe 50%, which increases by 5 or 10% for each addtl above the level cap.

Something about the rules needs to be fixed in my reckoning. Hell, they SUGGEST you tweak the rules...

User avatar
cjoepar
Hard-Bitten Adventurer
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:27 am
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by cjoepar » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:51 pm

I made this adjustment to corruption:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 73&t=44637

It has worked fairly well for me, but some of this all depends on the type of people you are playing with, I guess.

Gameogre
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:14 pm
Location: Teleports at will.

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by Gameogre » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:29 am

Oh don't take my obnoxious bluster as real. That is the way I run things at the moment but I'm just as likely to try a house change tomorrow as not.

To be honest though, Kill the Wizard should probably be the name of the game even without Spellburn.

My players in general don't spellburn. They know I like to kill them afterwards!

User avatar
finarvyn
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 2486
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:42 am
FLGS: Fair Game
Location: Chicago suburbs
Contact:

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by finarvyn » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:34 am

Gameogre wrote:Oh don't take my obnoxious bluster as real.
When I run a game I try not to look up rules during the session unless it becomes critical that I do so, so what you term a "blunder" is what I would just call "winging it." :lol:

It's all good. If you like your version better, stick with it. If you like your "fix" better, use it. If you re-read the rules and interpret them differently after the session, go with that. In other words, find your own personal flavor of DCC that works best for you and run your game that way. 8)
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson

fireinthedust
Mighty-Thewed Reaver
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:17 am

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by fireinthedust » Fri May 01, 2015 7:33 am

Kill the wizard now... Sounds like a t-shirt contest!

I'm enjoying the pbp forum here, with Ravencrowking's games. I have no idea who the big bad guy would be in the games we've played, as I'm into my characters so deeply, and we're mostly 0-level. That said, my only wizard is a shrivelled old woman who doesn't have much to spellburn, and my only elf (currently) is still just a musician. There is no strategy yet, but the ability scores are so all over the place that I don't think any of the characters are going to act the same way during the stories.

That said: my wizard didn't automatically get a spell, she had to research for a week from her book to figure it out (risking madness and corruption), then again and again. She ended up with a patron but no reliable spells for combat. Luckily the reinforcements are (I hope) giving her time to learn the ones on her list.

So: low spellburn options, plus random, RANDOM!!!! spells that may or may not be combat-useful, plus mercurial effects that could kill the party, plus a 5% chance of a horrific fumble giving me tentacles...

MAGIC KILLS IN DCC RPG. I'm not casting spells to solve problems, I'm casting them to CREATE problems.

While in my own designs I recommend point buy or pre-made arrays, I am 100% enjoying making up random heroes from the weird results I get from 3d6 in order. Maybe not all the time, but I like them better than cookie-cutter stat blocks.

User avatar
GnomeBoy
Tyrant Master (Administrator)
Posts: 3744
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:46 pm
FLGS: Bizarro World
Location: Left Coast, USA
Contact:

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by GnomeBoy » Fri May 01, 2015 7:40 am

Also: One man's bugs is another man's features.

And come to think of it, some wind up with a bug's features.
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

User avatar
Clangador
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:22 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by Clangador » Sun May 03, 2015 10:40 am

I allow my players to roll 4d6 take the best 3. I don't like players to have low ability scores. I think adventurers should be above average.
~Clangador

I'm not a wizard but I play one in DCC...

Join the DCC RPG Rocks Facebook group.

User avatar
Ravenheart87
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:34 pm
Location: Győr, Hungary
Contact:

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by Ravenheart87 » Sun May 03, 2015 10:57 pm

Clangador wrote:I allow my players to roll 4d6 take the best 3. I don't like players to have low ability scores. I think adventurers should be above average.
The funnel will weed out the weak, and sometimes it's fun that the statistically weak characters outlive and outperform seemingly superior characters. I'll keep the 3d6 in the future, but I'm thinking about adding more options to increase stats. Level ups are quite rare and bonuses don't come as often as in the d20 system, but it gives some extra feeling of advancement and might balance out lost ability scores (this happened quite often).
Vorpal Mace: a humble rpg blog with some DCC-related stuff.

User avatar
Stretch
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:15 am

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by Stretch » Mon May 04, 2015 11:22 am

I know some people who want to their players to have higher ability scores. I have played games with higher ability scores. I have no problem with it.

But, I prefer 3d6 in order. As Crom intended. Mostly because it fits my idea of the hero. Which is that anyone can be a hero. That one doesn't need the scores to be a hero. That what one needs is the drive and ambition to make do with the cards he has been dealt.

Again, just personal preference.

As to the wizard's power...my players are scared to death of wizards. They have none in the party. If they even sniff a wizard out in opposition to them they target him first, then the clerics. Often they can't tell the difference. Sometimes they aren't even wizards but they look like wizards. They die for their personal taste in dress. They have a robot with the magic missile protocol. He is the party blaster but at this point he doesn't fire reliably for them to always depend on getting them out of a jam. When it fires and drops three or four baddies at once they rejoice. Because that encounter was easier then the last one where he lost the spell first round and they had to go toe to toe and get bloody. Or the last fight where he rolled a one casting and began to glow and spark like mad and nearly died. Those fights the robot cheers the warriors, thieves and clerics. Cause they saved his ass. Sure he could have spell burned and cast again. But since they rolled 3d6 in order his scores are average and he fears when he can't spell burn and the party is in dire straights. And they know I don't pull punches and dire straights could come at any moment.

They also fear their dice. Last session they rolled 1's like they were pulling pennies from a fountain. One character died. The rest nearly wiped to a pack of falcon wolves. It's a dangerous world. But my players are having a blast despite their handicaps. Our dwarf, Stumpy, has an agility of 8. It never fails that if a one is going to be rolled he will roll it. Twice. Often in a row. He drops in battle a good bit. But then he delivers a crushing blow that saves the cleric from death and Stumpy knows true glory. And the cleric can remind him of the last two times he dropped in battle and he saved him before he bled out. And they curse at each other for keeping score. But they both fear the day that the other one might not be there. It's a symbiotic relationship. They need each other because no one is so godly they can do without.

I guess what I am saying is make the changes you need to make. Run the game the way you need to run it. Just remember there are other ways of handling a game before you change the rules.
-Stretch
If you survive a crucible you grow the stronger for it. - Arrow.

Rostranor
Hard-Bitten Adventurer
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: "Fixing" DCC RPG

Post by Rostranor » Wed May 06, 2015 5:33 pm

Step one. Get rid of bigbad, double door, final fantasy boss music style of adventure prep.

Step Two. Play the game.

Step three. Make the players believe accepting the dice falling as they may is always anbetter alternative than rules manipulation, unless in the utmost need.

Post Reply

Return to “DCC RPG General”