Making DCC Accessible

[Earl of Awesome]

I would like to note that Dungeon Crawl Classics is my all-time favorite fantasy roleplaying game. The art and writing get my imagination going like nothing else, and the mechanics capture the spirit and tone of Appendix N works nigh-flawlessly. However, my major concern with the game is its lack of accessibility to new players. There is no "what is roleplaying?" section in the introduction, nor is the game's premise initially described. This is all good and fine for seasoned dice-slingers like you and I, but terrible for bright-eyed youngsters who have yet to roll a d20.

In the second edition of DCC, or even a later printing, I would like to see a chapter introducing the concept of tabletop roleplaying and another describing the brand of fantasy that is Appendix N. This is because, in a perfect world, DCC kills D&D and Pathfinder. To do so, it must be accessible.

[dark cauliflower]

I don't know if its possible in this day in age. It seemz like so many youngsters are conditioned against our beloved DCC by society. Not many of them are going to be able to handle their characters dying. There'z a friggin thread on rpg.net where they are talking about how they can't handle death in their games. I don't know what to say but to stick my nose back into DCC and forget that it exists. Maybe their needs to be a DCC Outreach society to help these troubled youngsters.

[Earl of Awesome]

I don't know if its possible in this day in age. It seemz like so many youngsters are conditioned against our beloved DCC by society. Not many of them are going to be able to handle their characters dying. There'z a friggin thread on rpg.net where they are talking about how they can't handle death in their games. I don't know what to say but to stick my nose back into DCC and forget that it exists. Maybe their needs to be a DCC Outreach society to help these troubled youngsters.

I wouldn't put it like that, but I agree.

[finarvyn]

A tough call. Joseph decided early on that DCC would be a game designed for the old-timer with the notion that no real introduction to the genre is needed. I'm not quite sure either way on this.

On one hand, there are so many RPGs out there that surely folks know how to play. On the other hand, much of the philosophy of DCC was intended to be that of a live-hard-die-hard character.

Of course, the style of play is most often a function of the game master. I can run a non-lethal DCC and still have it feel a lot like the old school style.

[Earl of Awesome]

Another thing I would like to see is a table of skill DCs, explaining how hard each one is. This could help both new players, and old ones who never played anything after AD&D Second Edition.

[finarvyn]

Another thing I would like to see is a table of skill DCs, explaining how hard each one is. This could help both new players, and old ones who never played anything after AD&D Second Edition.

Of course you realize that there aren't really any "skills" in DCC, right? It's all about attribute checks.

By the way, the table is on page 66 of the rulebook:
DC 5 = child's play (minor chore)
DC 10 = a man's deed (typical)
DC 15 = feats of derring-do (something special)
DC 20 = a hero's work (super-human)

If you really want skills, I'd suggest you import the rules from Pathfinder. They have a nice, complex system with all of the DC nit-pick charts worked out for you already.

[Jim Skach]

I would like to note that Dungeon Crawl Classics is my all-time favorite fantasy roleplaying game. The art and writing get my imagination going like nothing else, and the mechanics capture the spirit and tone of Appendix N works nigh-flawlessly. However, my major concern with the game is its lack of accessibility to new players. There is no "what is roleplaying?" section in the introduction, nor is the game's premise initially described. This is all good and fine for seasoned dice-slingers like you and I, but terrible for bright-eyed youngsters who have yet to roll a d20.

My kids are ten and eleven...and DCC is their favorite...

....and trust me when I tell you there are people on this very forum that will attest to their cutthroat nature in play.


My advice, FWIW, it's our job to be that "what is roleplaying" chapter; to describe the premise.


Another message from SIGPUP!

[Aplus]

I think a negligible number of people get into tabletop RPGs by picking up a book and teaching themselves. Perhaps it was more common when you could get a D&D basic set at K-Mart or whatever, but these days not so much. Most people learn to play by playing with other people that already know how to play. That's how I and everyone I know learned.

Personally, I'm glad that making a kick-ass game was the priority with DCC. "Growing the hobby" is nice and all, but I think "What is a roleplaying game" sections are a waste of space 99.9% of the time.

[dark cauliflower]

maybe they can do a DCC Beginners kit that covers going through the funnel, at the minimum? Like that Pathfinder box set thing.

[Aplus]

maybe they can do a DCC Beginners kit that covers going through the funnel, at the minimum? Like that Pathfinder box set thing.

The Free RPG Day offerings have pretty much covered that.

[Earl of Awesome]

maybe they can do a DCC Beginners kit that covers going through the funnel, at the minimum? Like that Pathfinder box set thing.

The Free RPG Day offerings have pretty much covered that.

Not really. But in all seriousness, I would like to see a DCC boxed set for beginners. It could introduce DCC and roleplaying, and maybe go up to level 3.

[finarvyn]

maybe they can do a DCC Beginners kit that covers going through the funnel, at the minimum? Like that Pathfinder box set thing.

The Free RPG Day offerings have pretty much covered that.

Not really. But in all seriousness, I would like to see a DCC boxed set for beginners. It could introduce DCC and roleplaying, and maybe go up to level 3.

Such things have been discussed before and, so far, Joseph isn't interested. I suspect it's because he wants to move forward and not cover old ground by re-doing something he's already done. (This is also why I don't see many Supplement books or Annuals on the horizon. The goal was to "get it right" early on then publish modules.)

[beermotor]

Back in the day, there really wasn't much aside from D&D and other TSR offerings, a few things like Gurps and Palladium games and whatnot. But the hobby wasn't big business. It is BIG business now, and most kids have exposure to RPGs from console game systems probably long before they would ever get interested in a table top war game derivative (perhaps sadly). I mean, I played FASA BattleTech games long before I ever really played D&D. Nintendo had just come out then, and Legend of Zelda was probably one of the first RPGs for that kind of thing. Anyway... I agree with those who say this is largely a waste of time. Stick to the niche and keep doing it well, I say.

[TheNobleDrake]

I am one of those (apparently rare) folk who got into table-top RPGs by picking up a book when I was twelve and teaching myself by reading. Perhaps I am doing that thing that everyone does from time to time where we form expectations of others based on our own capabilities (I did it at age 12, so anyone age 12 or older should be able to manage), but I don't think that DCC is really missing anything that AD&D had to get me prepared for it being a game I would be learning to play - let's break it down to find out.

Back then: The book's cover art drew my attention, and it's title said everything I needed to read in order to realize it was a game (being that it said "player's handbook" and was not about a sport or an instrument). The title page them made that even clearer because it actually said "for the AD&D game" beneath player's handbook.

Now: DCC says "role playing game" right on the front cover.

Back then: The rear cover blurb claimed the book to be an "indispensable encyclopedia of fantasy role-playing" and claims to have everything a player needs (which I found frustrating upon getting home from the book store and realizing I actually needed two more books), enumerating thusly: "how to create a mighty hero or crafty wizard; unique aspects of the elves, dwarves, halflings, and other fantasy races; all the weapons, armor, magical spells, and rules for thrilling battles against supernatural monsters."

Now: DCC has a flavor blurb - it doesn't tell you that the book contains how to create a mighty hero, it gives you insight into what the game is about.

Back then: The first chapter is called "Welcome to the AD&D game" and told you would need 2 more books, that if you have played AD&D of some sort before that you are probably not going to need to learn much new stuff to play this version, and that if you are coming in from D&D that you will have some significant difference in mechanics to learn but not much else. It continues, mentioning that loads of AD&D books are already out there for you to use if you want, and even mentioning that the book is going to say "he, him, and his" but that doesn't mean they are discouraging girls from playing.

Now: DCC, between the introduction and the "abandon all presumptions" page actually covers the equivalent of most of the above, albeit steeped in in-references for people who already game - but it has what dice you are going to need, tells you that the game is about adventure and mentions dungeon crawling, wilderness, court, the outer planes, on the seas, in the air, and even other places as being where those adventures might take place. It even explains the basic mechanic of the game.

Back then: Chapter 2 is called "the real basics" and begins by explaining that there are all sorts of games in the world (board games, card games, word games, picture games, and miniature games get specific mention) - it then declares that role-playing game is a hard type of game to explain and runs through an example of how it is basically just a board game where the board is the infinite plane of your imagination, the pieces are anything you can imagine, and the players are also telling a story together by acting out their characters (which is a pretty crap way to describe role-playing if you ask me).

One useful thing found here is that it is explained that one does not "win" a role-playing game, it is the playing and enjoying that is the reward. There is an example of play which delineates a style of play that almost never works out (the players, for example, were all paying close attention so the DM never had to repeat himself - and it doesn't explain why all the players are speaking in meta-character mode where both in and out of character information like what the character is saying and what action the player wants to take filling the same sentence).

Then, there is a glossary which I suppose is a little helpful though I have always found them to be redundant given that every word found and defined in one is also explained clearly where it is found within the rules of the game.

Now: DCC has no explanation set aside that an RPG is what it is, nor any example of play that will never match up to real table-time, nor explanation of there being no "win" to achieve.

...but look at the way what it does have is presented: The very next bit of text for a reason other than flavor says "Game play in the Dungeon Crawl Classics Role Playing Game starts at 0 level: untrained, uneducated peasants." and then flow right into how to make a character and what each detail you are adding to the character means.

It might not say "here's how to play", but it is written such that you don't need that because the whole book is one giant "here's how to play," except that it has the rules in-line rather than segregated from their explanations.

Summary: the only things that DCC does not functionally contain that are found in a "what is a role-playing game?" section are 1) the assumption you have absolutely no idea what "role-playing" means and only a tenuous grasp on the term "game", and 2) an example of playing the game that is oddly inaccurate to actual table play, and simultaneously too wordy and not able to cover all that one would need to know - for example, the "example of play" is usually only exploration or combat, and occasionally exploration that leads to combat... leaving out entirely any example of what one might do while in town supplying for an expedition and hiring a crew, or what one might do if stepping into place as a local authority figure of some sort, or a thousand other things that are just as important as exploration and combat to a game that includes them.

[onearmspence]

I got the impression I heard something about a supplement? edition? or something? for kids... just can't remember where...

[TheNobleDrake]

I got the impression I heard something about a supplement? edition? or something? for kids... just can't remember where...

Joeseph Goodman wants to have a pared-down version of the rulebook around to make it easier for his kid to pick up the game once the kid is old enough to be able to do such a thing.

It isn't exactly "for kids" though - its still intended to be DCC, just less verbose.

[dark cauliflower]

maybe it should only have a couple of race/class options. Probably Dwarf and Halfling would do well for a kid. Elves are too scary. So are people.

[TheNobleDrake]

Elves are too scary. So are people.

Oh, so Elves aren't people, eh? That's fantasy racism.

[dark cauliflower]

we both know their mindless machines constructed by the Dwarvern Archons on Mars. I hope we don't start arguing that rocks are people too.

[bryguy]

Another thing I would like to see is a table of skill DCs, explaining how hard each one is. This could help both new players, and old ones who never played anything after AD&D Second Edition.

I've played nothing but OD&D and AD&D (never even tried 2nd) for 30 years now, and I can assure you that I have no need for anything like a "table of skill DCs"

[GnomeBoy]

Okay, look, let's play gneiss and stop all this saying rocks and elves aren't people -- or you'll get a kick in the butte.

[Ogrepuppy]

I wouldn't put it like that

What, without the bloody annoying Zs instead of Ses and intentional "hipster" misspellings and such?

Yeah, that poster is on my Ignore List just for murdering the English language.

[/derail topic]

[GnomeBoy]

I wouldn't put it like that

What, without the bloody annoying Zs instead of Ses and intentional "hipster" misspellings and such?

Yeah, that poster is on my Ignore List just for murdering the English language.

[/derail topic]

Is it murder, really? Or just taunting the English language with a stick?

What about a point-ed stick?

[Ogrepuppy]

Is it murder, really? Or just taunting the English language with a stick?

What about a point-ed stick?

It's teh murdurz of teh Oinlish languagezez, I tell ya.

[dark cauliflower]

if were thinking of little kiddiez, why not a choose yer own adventure style book? Full of the lovely DCC art that we've come to love? That way you have a game that gets them started at the simplest level of play and the great art to draw them in deeper.

something like they had around when I was a kid, with a 2.99 price tag on it.

that and some web games that are comic/games.