Were Elven Clerics a big historical mistake?

[dark cauliflower]

guyz,

Im re-reading The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson. In it Elves have no souls, morals... they worship no one. They live forever. They have no problem capturing other peoples and making em thralls.

This lead me to thinking that DCC Rpg has it right... Elves cannot be clerics! Is this in the same category of things they can't do, say like touching Iron since it burns them?

All those years with Elven clerics running around... just a bad vision of what elves have always been. I remember the 1rst Deities and Demigods had all these Elven godz in it... including Lolth who the Drow worshiped.

Was this all a bunch of new age nonsense that Gygax unloaded on us to make the Elves seem more human and playable?

[Geoffrey]

Non-human clerics (which of course include elven clerics) first raised their ugly heads in Gary's 1975 Supplement I: GREYHAWK.

I much prefer clericalism limited to humans only.

[dark cauliflower]

Im tinking that might be the best way.

Another thing I realised in reading the Broken Sword is that Elves are afraid of the godz. There worried that they might trangress against the humans too much and they would prey to the godz to do something about it... like eliminate the elfs!

They have no souls, so when their dead their dead. No need to worship a god to look after them in the other side.

Elfs seem really really fearful of the White Christ. Their was one critter of faerie in the book from Greece that had the population of Faerie eliminated by the w.c. . Scary stuff in deed.

Gods can be agents of genocide for them, why worship them?

[Ravenheart87]

I say it depends on your setting. While I love Appendix N literature, I usually go the Arduin way and let the players create whatever they want, of course at a cost. I have room for elven clerics in my campaignm, just like lizardman wizards and centaur warriors.

[cjoepar]

There are many appendix N sources, not just Poul Anderson. For example, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were written a few decades before most of Anderson's work.

Ultimately, I think it's critical to realize that there isn't a "wrong" or "right" way to use the source material. It's there to draw upon, but it's not a holy text and you are the author of what happens in your RPG experience.

[catseye yellow]

guyz,

Im re-reading The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson. In it Elves have no souls, morals... they worship no one. They live forever. They have no problem capturing other peoples and making em thralls.

This lead me to thinking that DCC Rpg has it right... Elves cannot be clerics! Is this in the same category of things they can't do, say like touching Iron since it burns them?

All those years with Elven clerics running around... just a bad vision of what elves have always been. I remember the 1rst Deities and Demigods had all these Elven godz in it... including Lolth who the Drow worshiped.

Was this all a bunch of new age nonsense that Gygax unloaded on us to make the Elves seem more human and playable?

no. they were there from the beginning. i would draw your attention to late 2e setting called birthright. The fact that only hummies had clerics was a big thing in their rise to power. elves were basically more of anderson variety: godless and immortal and prone to occasional wild hunt.

[catseye yellow]

There are many appendix N sources, not just Poul Anderson. For example, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were written a few decades before most of Anderson's work.

Ultimately, I think it's critical to realize that there isn't a "wrong" or "right" way to use the source material. It's there to draw upon, but it's not a holy text and you are the author of what happens in your RPG experience.

yes but you could claim that in tolkien's work there are no clerics or organized religions. or even religions of any kind.

[cjoepar]

yes but you could claim that in tolkien's work there are no clerics or organized religions. or even religions of any kind.

And I think you would be absolutely right to claim that. The "gods" in Tolkien's literature live among the elves but there is absolutely no hint of worship or clerical status among any of the races as you said. But I wasn't using this as a source for validating elven clerics, just as an example of the fact that there are multiple sources in the appendix N list and all of the game systems out there are more or less a blending of the literary sources. Strictly speaking, Tolkien's elves don't even fit into D&D or DCC, as they would likely have ability scores in the 20's for atributes like DEX/AGL, CON/STM and WIS/PER. In other words, I'm not trying to quote something from an Appendix N source like someone finding a passage in scripture to support something and I'm sorry if it appeared that way.

The only point I was trying to present is that I think your gaming experience will be full of frustration and you will miss out on a lot of enjoyment of the hobby if you try to apply Apendix N literature to your gaming world like it's some set of rules that have to be followed.

[catseye yellow]

yes but you could claim that in tolkien's work there are no clerics or organized religions. or even religions of any kind.

And I think you would be absolutely right to claim that. The "gods" in Tolkien's literature live among the elves but there is absolutely no hint of worship or clerical status among any of the races as you said. But I wasn't using this as a source for validating elven clerics, just as an example of the fact that there are multiple sources in the appendix N list and all of the game systems out there are more or less a blending of the literary sources. Strictly speaking, Tolkien's elves don't even fit into D&D or DCC, as they would likely have ability scores in the 20's for atributes like DEX/AGL, CON/STM and WIS/PER. In other words, I'm not trying to quote something from an Appendix N source like someone finding a passage in scripture to support something and I'm sorry if it appeared that way.

The only point I was trying to present is that I think your gaming experience will be full of frustration and you will miss out on a lot of enjoyment of the hobby if you try to apply Apendix N literature to your gaming world like it's some set of rules that have to be followed.

no, no... sorry if i came about as contradicting you. it was not a case. i was more thinking aloud. i type very loudly, you see :p

on the related note: i think that anyone would be hard pressed to find proper heal-bot clerics in appendix n. or am i wrong about that? i do not claim encyclopedic knowledge of all works listed in appnedix n.

[dark cauliflower]

well, the elves do know healing runes and such in The Broken Sword. Scafloc would have bit the dust many times without Imrics healing. In Tolkein, was it not the elves that healed Frodo with Magic after he got the Nazgul knife?

but they weren't god(z) worshippers.

Id think it be better to give them access to healing magic than to make them a cleric and all that entails.

I really really like the elves in The Broken Sword. Their a very nasty bunch.

[Aplus]

Were Elven Clerics a big historical mistake?

I don't think trying something out can ever be a mistake. If you don't like it, no problem, but the game is all about pushing boundaries and trying out new stuff.

[finarvyn]

My personal opinion is that non-human characters tend to get racial advantages, so giving humans class options seems fair to me. 1974 OD&D didn't allow elves or dwarves or hobbits to be clerics, and I'm fine with that. AD&D tended to open a few more options, and I can understand why they did it that way but I kind of like making the cleric a human-only option. Same with paladins.

Having said that, I have no problem with NPC elves who are clerics or paladins. I've also played in some D&D Next playtests where all of those options were out there and the game was still fun.

I'm kind of a stodgy traditionalist.

[dark cauliflower]

I saw awhile back on a review of either DCC Rpg or a OSR retroclone where the reviewer talked about how Dnd had changed over the yearz to the point where it was normal to see a halfling paladin with a talking pony that could teleport anywhere. I don't tink I could play in a group with that running around.

Finished up the Broken Sword last night. Great book, loved the elves. After reading it, Id say forget elf clerics and just give em access to healing magic. You shouldn't have to be a cleric to be able to cast healing spellz. I have to wonder if peoples desire for elf clerics goes to back to the fact that traditionally in dnd the cleric has been the only healer(druiderz too).

[Colin]

It's not that Elven Clerics were a mistake, but that Clerics and Paladins were a mistake regardless of race.

Colin

[dark cauliflower]

I know that crypts and things deleted the cleric and magic user. Melted their spell lists together and added the Magician character class. Spellz are divided up into white, grey and black magic. Each of the colours does different things to the caster.

[TheNobleDrake]

I saw awhile back on a review of either DCC Rpg or a OSR retroclone where the reviewer talked about how Dnd had changed over the yearz to the point where it was normal to see a halfling paladin with a talking pony that could teleport anywhere. I don't tink I could play in a group with that running around.

That's more because people exist who take "possibility" as "is what happens all the time," the moment that something they don't like becomes possible.

Exaggeration at its worst.

...though it also has a bit to do with a belief that seems more common in old-school fans than any other type of gamer where their view, which is almost always overly narrow and intentionally discards part of "old school" like heavy science influence or guns as "never fit" rather than "don't like", is treated as some higher-vision of bygone era of "real" gaming.

Note: I have yet to see someone with that sort of view here on the GG forums - which is why I still frequent this forum rather than abandon it as I have most others.

[dark cauliflower]

I don't see myself as an old gamer typo. I have a hard time even getting excited about the old time dnd games I have. Couldn't even finish bg2 the other day. Played planescape: torment awhile back, got really annoyed that I had to talk to someone in the game to change my class all the time. What were they tinking?!?!?

Then they released the 1rst edition dnd books in vinyl again. Great if you still have a record player.

I put my money into DCC Rpg instead of an old record player. This is the game that should have been released years ago! Im sure printing technology wasn't up to snuff back then to do the page+ long spellz and such... but I can't help but think that this is *real* gaming and all the others are but a shadow of it.

Its good to evolve with the times even if it means looking to the past and try to figure out what was done wrong in the first place.

Elfs should not drive cars!

[Ravenheart87]

Elfs should not drive cars!

That's racist!

[cthulhudarren]

guyz,

Im re-reading The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson. In it Elves have no souls, morals... they worship no one. They live forever. They have no problem capturing other peoples and making em thralls.

This lead me to thinking that DCC Rpg has it right... Elves cannot be clerics! Is this in the same category of things they can't do, say like touching Iron since it burns them?

All those years with Elven clerics running around... just a bad vision of what elves have always been. I remember the 1rst Deities and Demigods had all these Elven godz in it... including Lolth who the Drow worshiped.

Was this all a bunch of new age nonsense that Gygax unloaded on us to make the Elves seem more human and playable?

I need to read this book. But I don't see why there can't be Elven gods. They need to be appeased, they can bring weal or woe to the living. It's not about any kind of eternal reward.

How come all these cool Poul Anderson novels are out of print?

[dark cauliflower]

it has to do with the Tolkeinization of our society. They just don't mesh well with the Epic Poohish potrayal in The Broken Sword. I heartily recommend The Broken Sword over The Lord of The Rings. Its never boring and its much shorter than the LOTR. I can see why it was so influential with Moorcock... Ive read it twice in a year now and want to read it a 3rd time now. Maybe Gollanz will print sum more up.

[Rythwold]

You should read Moorcock review of The Broken Sword from 2003 if you havn't already: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/ja ... anreview18

[dark cauliflower]

yeah!!! That essay is in Wizardry and Wild Romance by Moorcock as well. That book has Epic Pooh in it too.

[cthulhudarren]

You should read Moorcock review of The Broken Sword from 2003 if you havn't already: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/ja ... anreview18

I think he's a little too hard on JRR. Tolkien is just so popular and influential that it's easy to hate on him.
Personally I love LoTR, always have. The characters are kind of cardboard, but he was just telling a story, not trying to comment on the human condition or something.

For sure I am going to attempt to get all these Poul Anderson books, stat!

[Nicomos]

If it were a game that was based on Andersons book....yes.

But I'm going gonna say no.

D&D elves, while inspired by Tolkien are their own seperate thing. IIRC D&D elves can't do a lot of things Poppa Ts elves did (walk on snow, didn't need to sleep, could see for miles and miles, are immortal, etc)-I dunno maybe I am off , it's been a very long time since I've played D&D, and even longer since I last read Tolkien. As far as I'm concerned they are fine w/in the context of D&D.

The only time I have a problem with D&D elves and how they are presented is when players want to D&D elves in games that aren't D&D.

[dark cauliflower]

I thought that that elves were based on Anderson, Tolkein... Appendix N! According to Moorcock Anderson and Tolkein elves should be similar since they were inspired by the same materials but just did different things with them.