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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:09 am 
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Let's try this one again:

Are bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins, and troglodytes supposed to be lawful, as described in the rulebook, or is that an error? According to the definition of lawful in the book (p.24), they don't sound lawful to me. Just making sure I'm not missing something.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:15 am 
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We have had this debate on another thread. They are not misprints but they are lawful in the fact that they are probably organized and wish to advance their own kind. I usually disregard the alignments of enemy humnoids and throw them in the same chaotic stew that wished to bring mankind to it's knees. Unless of course you wish to make them allies. You are after all the judge (getting use to that word still).


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Karaptis wrote:
We have had this debate on another thread. They are not misprints but they are lawful in the fact that they are probably organized and wish to advance their own kind. I usually disregard the alignments of enemy humnoids and throw them in the same chaotic stew that wished to bring mankind to it's knees. Unless of course you wish to make them allies. You are after all the judge (getting use to that word still).


I hear ya, Karaptis. It's just that the DCC alignment of Lawful doesn't necessarily seem to mean just organized, the way it's written on p.24. It seems to mean more "pro-humanity" than "pro-tucking-in-one's-shirt". So I was confused over the discrepancy. Maybe I'm just being too lawful about the whole thing? heheheh.

I will probably be making them Chaotic in my game now, simply out of spite!


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:45 pm 
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mistro tsar huk wrote:
Karaptis wrote:
We have had this debate on another thread. They are not misprints but they are lawful in the fact that they are probably organized and wish to advance their own kind. I usually disregard the alignments of enemy humnoids and throw them in the same chaotic stew that wished to bring mankind to it's knees. Unless of course you wish to make them allies. You are after all the judge (getting use to that word still).


I hear ya, Karaptis. It's just that the DCC alignment of Lawful doesn't necessarily seem to mean just organized, the way it's written on p.24. It seems to mean more "pro-humanity" than "pro-tucking-in-one's-shirt". So I was confused over the discrepancy. Maybe I'm just being too lawful about the whole thing? heheheh.

I will probably be making them Chaotic in my game now, simply out of spite!

You have my vote on making them chaotic. Those races are maybe more likely to keep a truce than orcs? I don't know, they're humanoids, kill them! They would side with the giants while you side with Odin. I like that simple distinction. I know you wish to get an official response so I will no longer throw my 2 cp.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:55 pm 
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An interesting facet is that lawful means opposed to outsider influence, chaotic means willing to deal with outside forces. So perhaps goblinoids, while probably in opposition to humans, are on the side of mortals against influence from Outside. Goblinoids are probably "evil" but are independent in spirit and unwilling to bargain their souls for power. Compare with the chaotic orcs, who care not for the fate of the world. I read the discussion of "man" in the alignment section as "the mortal races".


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:40 pm 
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giant wrote:
An interesting facet is that lawful means opposed to outsider influence, chaotic means willing to deal with outside forces. So perhaps goblinoids, while probably in opposition to humans, are on the side of mortals against influence from Outside. Goblinoids are probably "evil" but are independent in spirit and unwilling to bargain their souls for power. Compare with the chaotic orcs, who care not for the fate of the world. I read the discussion of "man" in the alignment section as "the mortal races".


Where does it say that Orcs "care not for the fate of the world" ? Goblins care for the fate of the world? Aren't Orcs and Goblins basically the same thing in literature?

I guess we don't have enough info. . .


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:20 am 
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Blustar wrote:
giant wrote:
An interesting facet is that lawful means opposed to outsider influence, chaotic means willing to deal with outside forces. So perhaps goblinoids, while probably in opposition to humans, are on the side of mortals against influence from Outside. Goblinoids are probably "evil" but are independent in spirit and unwilling to bargain their souls for power. Compare with the chaotic orcs, who care not for the fate of the world. I read the discussion of "man" in the alignment section as "the mortal races".


Where does it say that Orcs "care not for the fate of the world" ? Goblins care for the fate of the world? Aren't Orcs and Goblins basically the same thing in literature?

I guess we don't have enough info. . .


It doesn't! I am using my own imagination and interpreting based on their alignments and the description of what alignments mean.

EDIT: Also recall that the monster descriptions are intended as examples and they are meant to be changed. If you don't like lawful goblins, change them!


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:42 am 
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I don't mean to trivialize this, but my knee-jerk answer is always "do it the way you like instead of how the rules say." I know this is a poor answer, since many players prefer to play a game "by the book" and find it frustrating when folks tell them to change things. Sorry about that, but it's the best answer I can give at the moment without knowing if it's intentional or accidental.

mistro tsar huk wrote:
I will probably be making them Chaotic in my game now, simply out of spite!
That's the way I do it. I try hard to proofread this kind of thing but clearly missed it. Had I noticed this in playtest I would have at least opened the topic up to discussion. :oops:

My personal take on this is that logic tells me that goblins and trogs are Chaos because they are "out to get" human society, and when I play I often am guilty of filling in the blanks on things I think I "know" rather than what is written. So, it's possible that the book is in error. On the other hand, the fact that they have their own society and operate under their own laws and guidelines could lead one to the Lawful conclusion. To me, this side-steps the issue of alignment and makes it less interesting in my campaign, but it may fully represent Joseph's concept of how alignment is used in a DCC campaign and as such may not be an error at all.

Alignment discussions we had in playtest were mostly of a more global "law-chaos" versus "nine alilgnment" system rather than discussing individual monsters. We were focused on the big picture rather than the details becasue that would help make the game have the right "feel" to it. I'll confess that now I'm curious as to whether these monsters have been Lawful from the onset or toward the end, and what was the thinking behind the decision. I'll have to go back to look at early version playtest documents to check, but honestly this wasn't something that I recall much chatter about nor had put much thought into.

Bottom line is to "do it the way you like instead of how the rules say." :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Sounds good to me!


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:41 pm 
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I don't understand the problem Goblins and Troglodytes can be lawful. They will use order and discipline to wipe the stinky humans off the face of the planet. Unlike those stupid orcs who will attempt the same thing in a disorderly, undisciplined manner. (Pathetic creatures, right?) How is that hard to understand? Law is not a stand-in for good. And Chaos is not evil.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:57 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
I don't understand the problem Goblins and Troglodytes can be lawful. They will use order and discipline to wipe the stinky humans off the face of the planet. Unlike those stupid orcs who will attempt the same thing in a disorderly, undisciplined manner. (Pathetic creatures, right?) How is that hard to understand? Law is not a stand-in for good. And Chaos is not evil.


I agree with your interpretation.

That being said, I think the question being asked here is totally reasonable. I think the problem they are discussing is that DCC comes a little closer to saying law is good chaos is evil than perhaps other games. The discussion in alignment says that a lawful person will tend to work for the common good, be generous, etc. (I don't have the book in front of me, so I am paraphrasing). Law is exemplified by angelic qualities, and chaos by demonic qualities and there is a fair amount of discussion of law being aligned with humanity, chaos opposed. So in that light I think it is easy to say, "how can a lawful creature be an evil monster?"

That being said I think the discussion is PC-centric, and does not deal so directly with what lawful NPCs might look like. I like the idea of goblinoids being dogmatic and group-oriented. Just because they are often opposed to "humanity" does not exclude the possibility of them being lawful. As I mentioned earlier in the thread somewhere, I think humanity does not mean humans necessarily. The point is really about whether or not they traffic with outsiders (like the chaotic elves).


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:26 am 
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When did Elves become Chaotic? Just messing with you guys, but in my games "real" Elves, read Tolkienish, are the complete opposite of a Chaotic force, the are almost too Lawful. In a 3 alignment system, Elves must be lawful. They want to preserve order to a fault.

Now if we are talking about Fey elves or "fairy" Elves then that's a different story, but I would say that they are unknowable as to their mentality and actions. They are beyond mortal understanding and I would probably put them in the Neutral category.

English "Fairy" and Fey Elves= Neutral ( leanings towards Chaos) They do harm humanity for fun, so maybe Chaos. These creatures are very enigmatic.

Norse Elves= Hard to know but from what little we can gather , they were originally Supernatural Beings who sometimes lived with and mingled with humans and also helped humanity, so Lawful. maybe because of their long lives ( being immortal) they see the futility of extremes and settle for ( and Champion) Neutral.

Tolkien Elves= Lawful ( almost to an extreme) They want to preserve the world as is and are against change. They are the Bastions of good in the world.

D&D Elves= Chatic Good in AD&D which translates into Chaos?

I don't get the definition of Chaos in this three alignment system. I always envisioned Chaos as wanton and gleeful destruction. (Depravity, lying,murder etc. . .)Even in D&D the Caves of Chaos were filled with the most hideous monsters like Orcs, Ogres, Kobolds, Goblins, etc... and not humans, elves or dwarves.

So is the 3 alignment a personal alignment or a cosmological one? Since Humans can be Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic, then how can we claim any other sentient race to be just one? ( or even reflective of just one)

Basically I'm going to extrapolate what's on page 24...

I ask myself, Do these creatures normally find themselves interacting with celestials, angels, demi-gods, or Powerful Lords of law? Yes? then you fit in the lawful category. No and you don't. So, since I've never heard of Goblins or Trogs who interact with angels, celestials, etc, then they are not Lawful.

For Chaos they list characters aligning with Demons and devils, sinister monsters, extraplanar creatures, Chaos lords, Do Elves normally align themselves with these types of entities? Even in D&D, they were never aligned in this manner, so Elves are not Chaotic in any way. ( In the 3 alignment system described on page 24)

I think the alignment system is pretty clear on page 24, but it gets confusing and muddied when they give "sinister monsters" ( like Trogs) a lawful alignment.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:35 pm 
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I think I will throw elves into the neutral catagory due to their almost druidic nature, their aloof and easily distracted ( chaotic) king and their choosing to fight on the side of Mankind (lawful). Kind of a balance of sorts to me anyways.


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