DCC is DDNext

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DimitriX
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DCC is DDNext

Post by DimitriX » Mon May 07, 2012 4:54 am

I'm going to make a declaration. DCC RPG is Dungeons and Dragons Next, but WotC hasn't figured that out yet. Every time I read one of Mike Mearls articles on design goals for DDN, I realize that the good folks at Goodman Games have come to the same conclusion, already addressed the issue, and are releasing the game in May 2012 instead of starting playtesting in May 2012.

DCC has already captured the look and feel of Old School Dungeons and Dragons by going back to the original source material created by Gygax and Arneson and even hiring the original artists to create the artwork.

DCC was already written to attract adults by creating an atmosphere based on Appendix N stories in which the heroes are a bit shady and the bad guys are really bad.

DCC has already "figured out the Fighter class" by giving the Warrior Mighty Deeds, thus making him a bad ass in combat. The style of bad ass is between the player, the DM, and whatever horrible gods they worship.

DCC has already figured out that you don't need to split the Cleric into "priest and cleric". There is only one cleric and he can heal, swing a mace, and call down the wrath of his god to destroy his enemies, raise the dead, and part the seas.

DCC has already figured out that Vancian magic is accounting and boring. DCC has made the Wizard scary for monsters and scary for party members. Wizards are not for the faint of heart.

DCC has already figured out that without the risk of death and dismemberment that the games gets old and boring. DMs and players should not know if their adventure will be successful. Rather than considering it a failure and therefore no fun, DCC tells you to make your own story around it.

To be honest, I do still read about DDN on Enworld and other sites. But, I don't really care about the game because I won't be playing it. Goodman Games has already given me the game that I want and I trust them to do right by the game. WotC 'might' have a game out later this year and I have very little faith that they will produce the game that I want to play. And, even if they do, I trust that the powers that be at the company will eventually screw it all up. So, I follow what's going on with DDN for no other reason than the fact that WotC and DDN will be so big that they will have a major impact on the RPG hobby industry, which means they could accidentally have an impact on the games that I do play.
Last edited by DimitriX on Mon May 07, 2012 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Scott Kellogg » Mon May 07, 2012 5:02 am

I'm "voting with my dollars" for DCC. I haven't been interested in a mainstream (i.e. WotC) game since 3e first arrived on the scene (although I enjoyed my 3e campaign, which lasted about 30 sessions). My OSR evolution has been C&C -> LL -> DCC. DCC is by far the game that aligns most with my Great Gonzo high-magic, high-heroism style of play. We get started on May 27th. I'm tempted to start a decent blog on the game just to help popularize DCC. I feel that strongly about it. DCC brings the "sense of wonder" in all its glory. I'd like Goodman Games to make enough money on DCC to publish some great new DCC material, and if I help them by being a vocal advocate of their products, that's what I'll do.

Edit: I am not a Ted Nugent fan.
Last edited by Scott Kellogg on Mon May 07, 2012 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by RevTurkey » Mon May 07, 2012 5:15 am

Yep, DCC rpg is excellent. I will vote with my English Pounds :D
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by DimitriX » Mon May 07, 2012 5:26 am

I agree. I'll also be "voting with my dollars". I'm also planning on writing a review of DCC for Enworld. Looking over there, I don't see enough activity about DCC and I'd like to change that. I would suggest that other people do the same, even if all you can write is, "DCC is awesome! Go buy it!"

I don't have any delusions about the success of DCC. My hope is that they will be the third most popular game out there. WotC will always have the edge because of name recognition of Dungeons and Dragons and the amount of marketing money that Hasbro can bring. Paizo has produced a great game and already has a loyal fan base. Plus, both of these companies spend a lot of money on fancy art, which people tend to like. Goodman Games, though a great game company, is still kind of small and don't have the marketing dollars that the other companies have. Also, their intention is to keep to the black and white line art of the original DnD.

But, word of mouth is still the best advertising out there, so if we keep singing its praises then that will help. Also, I think if Goodman Games keeps their production overhead down, then they can sell a good game at a lower price, which might attract cash-strapped gamers. Goodman Games is already smart by encouraging 3PP and creating a system that allows flexibility and creativity on the part of DMs and players, which encourages blogging and podcasts. This is just free advertising for them. Now that I think about it. I think this is how Paizo got PF off the ground...

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by finarvyn » Mon May 07, 2012 5:39 am

DimitriX wrote:releasing the game in May 2011 instead of starting playtesting in May 2011.
Um ... that would be 2012, right? :wink:

Essentially, I agree with you. The fundamental design philosophy of DCC sounds a lot like what WotC says they want to create. Very ironic.
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Karaptis » Mon May 07, 2012 5:50 am

I personally think the art in 4e books is a bunch of manga style garbage. I never have commented on message boards until I discovered this game a couple months ago. This game is that damn good! And the art... Erol F'n Otus people!

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Vanguard » Mon May 07, 2012 6:20 am

We don't need to turn this into an edition wars thread, since, from the looks of it, we're all converts or soon to be.

That being said, the DCC RPG does seem like it's beating WotC to the punch. All that means is we get to have our fun sooner than later.
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Scott Kellogg » Mon May 07, 2012 7:41 am

This is just another DCC RPG is awesome thread.

8) 8) 8)

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by finarvyn » Mon May 07, 2012 8:29 am

Karaptis wrote:I personally think the art in 4e books is a bunch of manga style garbage. I never have commented on message boards until I discovered this game a couple months ago. This game is that damn good! And the art... Erol F'n Otus people!
It's different. I hate to use the term "garbage" because I like a lot of the art, but it doesn't evoke the "old school" feel that I get with Otis or the old B&W line art. On the other hand, it doesn't need to be B&W to be "old school" as the old Frazetta Conan art demonstrates.

The style of artwork for any RPG helps to set the tone of the game, which may have nothing to do with the type of rules involved.

I think in general the 3E and 4E art appeals a lot more to the younger generation than the older one. At least, my teenaged son really likes 3E/4E artwork, as do his friends.
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by blindelf » Mon May 07, 2012 10:22 am

I really appreciate what Paizo have accomplished with Pathfinder but I also want
to play a weird & wonderful old-school/Appendix N RPG and for that only DCC
will scratch that itch.

Goodman Games and Paizo are very different companies but they are both doing
a great job of playing to their own strengths right now.

Gives me two different but fun styles of D&D, and if WotC actually manages to make
'official' D&D look like fun again I'll play some of that too.

I definitely forsee DCC RPG getting a big chunk of my attention from now on
regardless of whatever other 'D&D's I play.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Karaptis » Mon May 07, 2012 10:27 am

finarvyn wrote:
Karaptis wrote:I personally think the art in 4e books is a bunch of manga style garbage. I never have commented on message boards until I discovered this game a couple months ago. This game is that damn good! And the art... Erol F'n Otus people!
It's different. I hate to use the term "garbage" because I like a lot of the art, but it doesn't evoke the "old school" feel that I get with Otis or the old B&W line art. On the other hand, it doesn't need to be B&W to be "old school" as the old Frazetta Conan art demonstrates.

The style of artwork for any RPG helps to set the tone of the game, which may have nothing to do with the type of rules involved.

I think in general the 3E and 4E art appeals a lot more to the younger generation than the older one. At least, my teenaged son really likes 3E/4E artwork, as do his friends.
I will submit to your more diplomatic approach but half dragons carrying swords the size of tree trunks is more Dragonball Z or yugioh than I like in my fantasy.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Scott Kellogg » Mon May 07, 2012 10:35 am

I'm looking forward to turning players in their 20s on to DCC and that kind of vibe. I think they'll be pretty wide-eyed.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by RevTurkey » Mon May 07, 2012 11:47 am

If anybody does do an enworld review... Give us all a nudge, I am sure we can chip in some support and we would mean it too. No hype has made me choose this game, just pure awesomeness.

As to the art... Some very talented artists do the 4e and Pathfinder books. I do think tree trunk sized daggers do look a bit silly though and give the game a rather childish feel. One of the things I enjoyed in my youth, playing AD&D was the fact it felt like I was playing a grown-ups game not one aimed at kids. I think Hasbro could take note of that and stop trying to make the equivalent of bubblegum cards from Dungeons and Dragons. Still, artists like Wayne Reynolds are VERY good.

I love Doug's stuff in the Rulebook best. Great, bordering on a cartoon but telling a story every time. (did I just contradict myself?...oh well nevermind)
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Karaptis » Mon May 07, 2012 2:03 pm

Thanks Rev, you stated my point. The manga makes it look childish to me. If anyone likes the art, I meant no offense by dogging it. I just prefer the 1974 feeling this book gives off.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Vanguard » Mon May 07, 2012 2:47 pm

We will never see old school art in D&D again. WotC is marketing to a generation that's grown up on magic cards illustrated on a computer. Pathfinder is marketing to a generation fed up with WotC.
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by HiroTsukasa » Mon May 07, 2012 3:03 pm

Well said to the original poster! In fact, about two weeks ago I ran "Portal Under the Stars" at my FLGS for the regular D&D group I am in. One of our players has been in the early closed Beta for D&D NEXT and while he is faithfully keeping the NDA, he commented multiple times both as I explained the basics and during the course of the game that, "So, we're essentially playing D&D NEXT with extra stuff then..."

That being said, I do play 4e and I like it just fine. It has its uses for certain types of Fantasy and like all games has its good points and its bad points. I love tabletops in general. It takes a lot for me to out and out dislike one; though I have my preferences. I'd like to believe NEXT will be something nice as well, but I won't speculate until I have had a chance to try it myself. Though I will say, thus far everyone in my group is pretty apprehensive based on what news has been given out.

Regardless, DCC has skyrocketed to my #1 Fantasy RPG and "edition of D&D" so I can't wait to see where it goes. I think given the chance, DCC really could get a big following. From my demo, everyone in the group liked the game and being 4e players appreciated the simpler approach to their characters and the gameplay while not hindering any of the fun or the storytelling. I'll likely keep running the official modules as they come out or maybe even start a store campaign for one of the off-days from D&D.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Karaptis » Mon May 07, 2012 5:36 pm

Vanguard wrote:We will never see old school art in D&D again. WotC is marketing to a generation that's grown up on magic cards illustrated on a computer. Pathfinder is marketing to a generation fed up with WotC.
Well said sir!

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by reverenddak » Tue May 08, 2012 10:38 am

DCC RPG is my D&D NOW!
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Raven_Crowking » Tue May 08, 2012 10:43 am

Frankly, although I hope my impression is wrong, nothing I have seen about D&D Next makes me interested, let alone excited. Even calling it "D&D Next" screams "New Coke".

DCC is not D&D Next.

D&D Next leaves me feeling blah about it.

DCC has me excited. It has me wanting to own all of the things Goodman Games and the 3rd party publishers put out for it. It has me running games for Free RPG Day because I want to share it. It is all the things D&D Next is not.
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by DimitriX » Tue May 08, 2012 11:09 am

Raven_Crowking wrote:Frankly, although I hope my impression is wrong, nothing I have seen about D&D Next makes me interested, let alone excited. Even calling it "D&D Next" screams "New Coke".

DCC is not D&D Next.

D&D Next leaves me feeling blah about it.

DCC has me excited. It has me wanting to own all of the things Goodman Games and the 3rd party publishers put out for it. It has me running games for Free RPG Day because I want to share it. It is all the things D&D Next is not.
Oh I agree with everything you said. I find it interesting that I'm not at all interested in WotC has to offer anymore. This is why I say "DCC is DDN" for me. The words "Dungeons and Dragons" do not appear on the cover of the book, but what's on the pages screams out "D&D" a lot more than anything else I've read in decades.

And, I love the "New Coke" analogy. I think that sums it up perfectly.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by Vanguard » Tue May 08, 2012 11:46 am

I can't recall ever being this excited for a game in the recent past. I love gaming, and have done damn near every variety of it (video, computer, board, CCG, war), but never have I wanted to have my new books and dice so badly.

I will most likely not see it until the end of this month. While I was lucky enough to get one of the remaining DCC RPG LE books, I placed my order pretty late.
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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by DimitriX » Tue May 08, 2012 12:16 pm

Vanguard wrote:I can't recall ever being this excited for a game in the recent past. I love gaming, and have done damn near every variety of it (video, computer, board, CCG, war), but never have I wanted to have my new books and dice so badly.

I will most likely not see it until the end of this month. While I was lucky enough to get one of the remaining DCC RPG LE books, I placed my order pretty late.
To be honest, I was actually very excited about 4e when it came. Mainly, I saw it fixing many of the problems I had with 3e, which it did. Unfortunately, it introduced a whole new set of problems which were much more insidious and took about a year for me to realize. I can say that I haven't been excited about anything that WotC has done since. Also, I haven't been this excited about a 3PP ever. But, I need to change my thinking. Goodman Games isn't a 3PP in that they produce things for WotC-D&D. They are a publisher unto themselves with their own system and product line putting them on par with Paizo and Mongoose Publishing.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by fjw70 » Tue May 08, 2012 1:27 pm

Sorry but D&D Next will be nothing like DCC RPG. DCC is a re-imaging of D&D and D&D Next is a best of edition of the game. Of course there will be similarities but that is because both are drawing on almost 40 years of D&D history in one way or another.

DCC is a good game in its own right and I have high hopes that Next will be good too (I think every edition of D&D is good so I don’t think Next will disappoint).

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by jmucchiello » Tue May 08, 2012 9:08 pm

My current draw for DCC is the artwork. My old school style need is currently being filled by Old School Hack. It is wonderfully simple. But I enjoy lots of different style games. I play RISUS and I play Champions. You can't get a wider level of light to heavy rulesets there I think.

DCC is your DDN? That's great for you. But I see no reason not give it a look when it's available. There's always something one can steal from a new RPG ruleset.

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Re: DCC is DDNext

Post by DimitriX » Wed May 09, 2012 5:54 am

jmucchiello wrote:DCC is your DDN? That's great for you. But I see no reason not give it a look when it's available. There's always something one can steal from a new RPG ruleset.
Well, money is a good reason to not give DDN a look. With DCC, I spend $40 to get one book that has all of the rules to play and run a game and a nice list of monsters to get me started. There are suggestions on how I can change those things up and make them my own. Goodman Games already has at least one adventure a month coming out over the next year and each one costs just $10. Plus, I think all of these will be available for download at even cheaper rates. And I don't think I've ever been disappointed by a Goodman Games product. Plus, there are already five new 3PP lining up to create products for the game.

By the time WotC gets DDN out, I will be neck deep in DCC products that I won't have any money left to spend on their stuff. Plus, if they follow their past pattern, there will have to be three books coming out each one will probably cost $30-$40. Most of the cost is going to be in pretty pictures that look nice but don't really add anything to game. The adventures will probably cost at least $20 each.

So, let's do the math. To get a basic set of DDN, I'll need to spend at least $90 to get all three books and then at least $20 to get a starter adventure which totals to $110. For that much money on DCC, I can get the core book ($40), a new set of funky dice ($25), four adventure modules ($40), and still have $5 left over sodas.

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