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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:27 am 
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reverenddak wrote:
I've been playing DCC RPG consistently for almost a year now, and the highest level characters are only 2nd. I don't see them ever reaching 10th.

Really? That's astonishing going by my rp experience with ad&d. How is xp doled out in DCC?

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:31 am 
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One thing I am wondering about DCC is will it be able to simulate the lightly/non-armored warrior by the rules? Many warriors in Appendix N only wore very light or no armor and relied on dodging, parrying and skill for not getting hit. The recent Myth and Magic retroclone/simulacrum has a wonderful class talent for just that. Will DCC be able to emulate it?


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:39 am 
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shadewest wrote:
All classes use the same XP chart now, and it's been really simplified.


I'm a little disappointed at this. What's the reasoning?

Seeing that level threshold table felt like coming home.

--Tonik


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:38 am 
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Zdanman wrote:
One thing I am wondering about DCC is will it be able to simulate the lightly/non-armored warrior by the rules? Many warriors in Appendix N only wore very light or no armor and relied on dodging, parrying and skill for not getting hit. The recent Myth and Magic retroclone/simulacrum has a wonderful class talent for just that. Will DCC be able to emulate it?


This probably houserule territory.

I would let them trade armor prof for an unarmored AC bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:21 am 
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I would allow players to use their Agility as their armour class when unarmoured, but I would give armour a damage soak to balance (maybe -1 damage for every two points of AC over 10).

At first, I wasn't sure of the XP rules myself (counting hordes of points makes you feel rich, whether XP or GP). I'm a lot more comfortable with this change now though, as in reality, this is how must veteran referee's end up utilizing XP in the end. It's just so much simpler to pace the game this way. It would, of course, be insanely easy to house rule this back to XP totals... simply take Labyrinth Lord level requirements and reward XP as per OD&D (i.e. 100 XP per HD). I like to add a d100 to round off XP totals and make them seem random (as well as to force more math out of my players).


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:09 pm 
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I really like the agility = AC when not wearing armor. I am going to have to think about this but it sounds good since the scale would fit well and it gives you more benefit from agility when not wearing armor (which makes sense).


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:38 pm 
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thogard wrote:
I'm a little disappointed at this. What's the reasoning?

Seeing that level threshold table felt like coming home.

--Tonik


I felt betrayed by this too. But the XP system is a lot less granular now. Instead of 800 to 1200 XP for 2nd-level, it's more like 50. So it's almost silly to have one class level at, say, 48 and another 52. So it actually makes more sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:46 pm 
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reverenddak wrote:
thogard wrote:
I'm a little disappointed at this. What's the reasoning?

Seeing that level threshold table felt like coming home.

--Tonik


I felt betrayed by this too. But the XP system is a lot less granular now. Instead of 800 to 1200 XP for 2nd-level, it's more like 50. So it's almost silly to have one class level at, say, 48 and another 52. So it actually makes more sense.

While I have no problem with level limits and different XP thresholds (especially the latter), I think the reason people like them has more to do with nostalgia. Also, the differences in the beta were not that big between the classes, so it was more like a decoration that makes old-school gamers drool, than a useful or meaningful element of the game, IMO. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:48 pm 
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reverenddak wrote:
thogard wrote:
I'm a little disappointed at this. What's the reasoning?

Seeing that level threshold table felt like coming home.

--Tonik


I felt betrayed by this too. But the XP system is a lot less granular now. Instead of 800 to 1200 XP for 2nd-level, it's more like 50. So it's almost silly to have one class level at, say, 48 and another 52. So it actually makes more sense.


I like this change. No need to have similar XP charts as classic D&D if you don't get XP from treasure.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:24 pm 
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fjw70 wrote:
I like this change. No need to have similar XP charts as classic D&D if you don't get XP from treasure.


This is very true. Also, we should remember that the differences in class level charts was always rather academic. The difference between classes would only determine who levelled first, and would not mean a multi-level party (at least until fairly high levels). Write up an OD&D party where everyone has 30,000 XP, for example, to see what I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:38 pm 
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So how does level drain work in the new rules? Do you still lose experience points? Is there advice for giving XP for things other than monster-wraslin'? Is there a way to do individual XP rewards from combat (so you gain XP according to how many enemies you personally defeated)? The Castle Zagyg supplement suggested that Knights should receive the most XP from combat, Thieves from pulling off capers etc.

What's the deal with dragons? Ultimate enemy or mid-level pushovers?


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:17 am 
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Ravenheart87 wrote:
While I have no problem with level limits and different XP thresholds (especially the latter), I think the reason people like them has more to do with nostalgia.

I'm of two minds about this. Differing level thresholds means you can put a "powerful" class ability on one class at level 3 as long the jump from 2-3 reflects this. If you are going for a feel where some classes shine a certain levels while other classes shine a different levels, it makes sense that level gain among the party might be staggered around. Why can't a 3rd level cleric be as powerful as 4th level thief.

Likewise, look at the traditional xp charts where wizards are slowest to get to level 2 yet they only can cast ONE spell per day. This means they have to be the best dungeoneers in order to survive through 2500 xp of encounters with nothing but one spell and one dagger. Why did the rest of the party become 2nd level before the smartest people on the planet? It's like that to teach the player selectivity and grooms them for later levels where even if they have SEVEN spells, they remember being first level and still cling to judiciously casting spells only when the fighters, clerics and thieves NEED a spell RIGHT NOW.

OTOH, that kind of dungeon crawling is not really the norm these days. And my arguments fall apart when one considers Gary probably just made the charts the way they were because "it looked good."


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:07 pm 
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I think I'm going to run either In Search of the Unknown or Palace of the Silver Princess. Likely as-is, but toning down the loot. I'll read through them both this weekend and decide what flows better for my (young) group.

--Tonik


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:12 am 
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There are a bunch of Mega-Dungeons available for the OSR (and as I'm mentioned numerous time, OSR stuff is 99.99999% compatible with DCC RPG) I was wondering, because I want to include one to my campaign, does anyone recommend one that isn't too hard-core? One that can support levels 1-10 specifically. Most mega dungeons are 7+, and those might be a bit too much for a typical DCC RPG party... or maybe not? I noticed that Dwimmermount was 1+.

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:31 am 
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http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.ca/
In the free resources you can find Castle of the Mad Archmage. I haven't played it but it appears to be a very good (and free) mega dungeon. Edit: Based on Gary Gygax's notes and conversations on Castle Greyhawk.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/michael-curtis ... 61291.html
Stonehell dungeon is fairly cheap and gets great reviews but I am not as impressed with it as other people seem to be. I started to DM this for my group and they kind of felt the same as myself.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/patrick-wetmor ... 86959.html
This is the start (only the first bit has been released) of a megadungeon. It's a bit whacky (futuristic, the gods are actually satellites in orbit and so on) but it gets great reviews. I own it and plan on running it one day.

Finally you can play the Darkness Beneath, a multi-user created mega-dungeon found in issues of Fight On! magazine (it starts on issue 2 I think, each issue adding a level). On the plus side you get the rest of the magazine as well.
http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?bo ... hread=2265


Last edited by bholmes4 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:42 am 
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All of those are level 1+ by the way. I haven't actually played one of them (just the start of Stonehell) but I own all of them and they all look good. Dwimmermount will also work but it won't be ready for a bit I imagine. I have seen the first two levels though and I think it's going to be very, very good.

I can also recommend Barrowmaze:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/9 ... _10094_0_0
It's not a true megadungeon but it would last many sessions and he will be making Barrowmaze II and possibly more so it may become a megadungeon for all I know. I have actually played a few sessions with the creator and can give this a big thumbs up (very old school though, not sure how well DCC fits but I think it would be fine). And I say that without any previous loyalty to him as I only met him because I heard of this product and then found out he lived fairly close to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Thanks BHolmes4! A couple of those I've never seen. I have Fight On! 4, so I should take a look at that.

Also worth noting, for those into OSR stuff, all Swords & Wizardry modules and supplements include both [Ascending] and Descending AC stats, so conversion is even quicker! Frog God Games has been releasing all their stuff in S&W and Pathfinder Versions, including the Tome of Horrors!

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"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:31 am 
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For those wishing to use DCC to run all their classic modules, how would you say the games differ theme wise and rule wise?

What should we look out for?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:47 am 
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Thane wrote:
For those wishing to use DCC to run all their classic modules, how would you say the games differ theme wise and rule wise?

What should we look out for?

Thanks

Theme wise, it depends on what you consider "classic". Anything before1985 or so is pretty spot on. Regarding rules, I don't see too many problems, though depending on your group, you might be able to aim a level or two higher, since casters have more spells, especially at lower level. Don't let descending AC trip you up, be ready to make a judgement call for appropriate saving throws, and when in doubt, DC 15.

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:36 pm 
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shadewest wrote:
...and when in doubt, DC 15.


There's a lot of wisdom in those words.

//H

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:37 pm 
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I'm putting my party through "The Lost City" and the final enemy (I'm not going beyond tier 4) is like a lvl 6 cleric. In DCC that guy will wipeout a party of lvl 1s! Gonna scale him down to 4 or 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Harley Stroh wrote:
shadewest wrote:
...and when in doubt, DC 15.


There's a lot of wisdom in those words.

//H


Thanks, Harley.

Now, encouraged by positive reinforcement, here's how I rule DCs, judge to judge, rather than in Appendix N terms:

DC 5: I'd have given it to you, but since you want to roll...
DC 10: you can usually do this no problem, but with the pressure on...
DC 15: challenging, if you're careful or good...
DC 20: maybe with luck, Luck, or help...
DC 25: really? Prove it.
DC 30+: Who wrote this adventure?

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:09 am 
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The main problem I've got, is I want to use DCC to run the classic modules. I don't want to convert the classic modules to DCC. Ok, I'll probably 'tweak' the classics a little bit.

How would you say the levels stack against each other? Simply double the original to get the DCC equivalent?

DCC/Original
1/2
2/4
5/10
8/16

And so on?

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:37 pm 
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That looks kinda right to me. The treasure in those old modules seems like a lootfest as well maybe knock it down some as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Karaptis wrote:
That looks kinda right to me. The treasure in those old modules seems like a lootfest as well maybe knock it down some as well.


I've been using the general rules following to run modules from Pathfinder, 3.x, D&D and AD&D:

1. Remove all magical properties and enhancement bonuses of items not actually required by the plot of the adventure - all those daggers +2 stashed in boots of random NPCs are now just boot knives, but the magic blade hidden in the nearby tomb that is the only weapon the party can be expected to have that will affect the vampire antagonist remains.

2. All expendable items are reduced in quantity to match the figures mentioned in DCC, and I typically drop that a little further down still to encourage the players to seek out spells like make potion and write magic when they can.

3. Monetary values of treasure are reduced by taking one digit off the number present (reducing to a minimum of single digit numbers) and have their coin type changed to the next less valuable: 400 gp becomes 40 sp, 30 platinum becomes 3 electrum, and so on. Copper takes some eyeballing... often I would take something like 32 sp and turn it into 5 cp.

Any treasures that seem too rich still (typically gems of more valuable varieties and giant piles of coins) have further reduction in quantity - I'd rather present the party with 30 silver coins minted under the rule of the empire that collapsed 200 years ago (worth either their weight in silver, or 10 times their value to a collector of antiquities) than have them run into 300 silver coins all in a pile.

So far (haven't done much - just DCC #0 and part of DCC #2) it seems to work just fine - the party's money goals are to finish getting outfitted in armor and weapons without having to rough it, not to get everyone into the most expensive armor they wish to wear and on mounts of greatest breeding and finest quality.


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