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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:46 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
Well, this may seem obvious, but the beta rules were...beta rules. :)

Those lessons that were learned are reflected in the final rules.

The folks worried about wizard corruption at high levels may be pleasantly surprised when they play the final rules.

Good news!

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:16 am 
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Dare I say - very very good news!

Now the only issues that I would potentially have with the game is the the total inability to raise stats in-game via level advancement or other natural (non-magical) means. Hackmaster has a method of raising stats that works reasonably well. If this is addressed I will be one happy RPG monkey.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:22 am 
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Zdanman wrote:
Dare I say - very very good news!

Now the only issues that I would potentially have with the game is the the total inability to raise stats in-game via level advancement or other natural (non-magical) means. Hackmaster has a method of raising stats that works reasonably well. If this is addressed I will be one happy RPG monkey.


What method does HM use?


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:43 am 
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Zdanman wrote:
Now the only issues that I would potentially have with the game is the the total inability to raise stats in-game via level advancement or other natural (non-magical) means. Hackmaster has a method of raising stats that works reasonably well. If this is addressed I will be one happy RPG monkey.


One of the major goals of DCC RPG is to get back to an era of simple, fantastic adventure. Somewhere in the rules I give a little advice to judges that basically consists of, "If you didn't need a rule for it in 1974, then you don't need a rule for it now." Instead of using a rule, turn such requests into an opportunity for fantastic quest or adventure!

Specifically in relation to the question of stat increases, there is a chapter on Quests & Journeys that addresses this and several other topics. I will quote part of it below. My advice for this specific issue: if a warrior wants to increase his Strength, make the character quest the world to find the greatest trainer that ever lived, then have his character train with that person for a year. Or track down Hercules' Belt. Or best Thor in a game of chance. Or find the kIng's quartermaster and pry from the secret of his great strength. And so on.

Obviously it's your game, so if HM has a great rule that you like, feel free to adapt it. There's another portion of the DCC RPG rules that discusses the fact that most of the game's players will be experienced DM's, so it's highly unlikely any two games will resemble each other -- I expect a lot of home brewing and rules importing. Everybody should play the game they like the best.

Anyway, here's that part of the rules:

Questing for the Impossible

Modern role playing games contain a surfeit of rules defining spells, rituals, feats, and other mechanics for all manner of supernatural accomplishments. Raising the dead, improving an ability score, gaining weapon skill, receiving a divine boon are acts of dice-rolling and nothing more. The DCC RPG argues against this approach, and instead makes one simple request of both player and judge: follow the examples set by mythology and fiction and resolve such acts with a quest!

Here is a list of extraordinary acts in which the characters may wish to indulge and a suggested quest to accomplish them. Each of these is, of course, an adventure in itself. The judge should most certainly allow for extraordinary accomplishments in the DCC RPG—provided the players earn them. This game is not about mechanical solutions to requests; it’s about adventure!

Realize that there are powers beyond the ken of player characters. An NPC sorcerer can know a spell or ritual that solves a difficult problem for the characters—but that spell need not be learned by the characters. There is no reason to explain the rules of magic; recall that there aren’t any true “rules” of magic. Magic is magical. Perhaps the PC wizard cannot learn that spell for obscure and abstruse reasons. Lead your characters on quests toward allies with powers beyond their own rather than toward mechanical solutions.

For characters who do wish for extraordinary abilities, here are quests that could discover such possibilities:

Blessing: Do a favor for a god, and the god will do you a favor, too.
Breathe underwater: Locate the merman king and give him a perfect pearl.
Find safe passage through a terrible place: Bargain with Lady Luck: a week of safe passage now for a week of dangers later…but she picks the week of dangers.
Heal a terrible poison or disease, or blindness or deafness: Recover the long-lost vessel of liquid that heals any malady, or act with good faith toward a wounded creature of kindness.
Raise the dead: Journey to the lands of the dead and recover the lost soul, possibly by dancing, gaming, or jousting with Death himself. (Note: a DCC module deals with this exact subject. Look for DCC #74: Blades against Death as an example of how to perform such a quest.)
Remove a curse: Aside from specific methods as noted in Appendix C, consider a trip to the cave of the Oldest Crone, patron of witches, where the black stone representing that curse must be destroyed.
Speak with the dead: Obtain the tongue of a still-living witch who gives it willingly, then place it in the mouth of the corpse.
Slay an immortal: Find the hall of souls, where a candle is lit for every living being, somewhere on a divine plane of existence, and snuff the candle that represents that immortal’s soul.
Summon creatures from beyond: Find the creature’s representation in the vast collection of statues kept by Gorgon, the medusa god, then carry that statue back to the mortal realms and turn it to flesh.
Tame a dragon mount: Simply steal a dragon’s egg and raise it from birth. Or, to tame an adult dragon, find the eggshell from which it hatched, which most dragons secure in a secret location.
Total party kill: Don’t end the game! Transport all the player characters to Hell—where they can give in to Death’s demands or try to fight their way out!
Unparalleled power: To achieve unparalleled power, make a pact with a deity of enormous power and promise it that which it cannot otherwise obtain.
Weapon proficiency: Find a true master of the indicated weapon and adventure with him, earning a potential bonus of +1 to +3 on attacks with that weapon given sufficient time. Of course the master may have demands of his own, and will expect much of his apprentice.
Wield a legendary magic weapon: Recover the magic weapon from its last known location.

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Goodman Games
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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:39 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
"If you didn't need a rule for it in 1974, then you don't need a rule for it now."


Amen.

goodmangames wrote:
Questing for the Impossible

Modern role playing games contain a surfeit of rules defining spells, rituals, feats, and other mechanics for all manner of supernatural accomplishments. Raising the dead, improving an ability score, gaining weapon skill, receiving a divine boon are acts of dice-rolling and nothing more. The DCC RPG argues against this approach, and instead makes one simple request of both player and judge: follow the examples set by mythology and fiction and resolve such acts with a quest!

Here is a list of extraordinary acts in which the characters may wish to indulge and a suggested quest to accomplish them. Each of these is, of course, an adventure in itself. The judge should most certainly allow for extraordinary accomplishments in the DCC RPG—provided the players earn them. This game is not about mechanical solutions to requests; it’s about adventure!

Realize that there are powers beyond the ken of player characters. An NPC sorcerer can know a spell or ritual that solves a difficult problem for the characters—but that spell need not be learned by the characters. There is no reason to explain the rules of magic; recall that there aren’t any true “rules” of magic. Magic is magical. Perhaps the PC wizard cannot learn that spell for obscure and abstruse reasons. Lead your characters on quests toward allies with powers beyond their own rather than toward mechanical solutions.

For characters who do wish for extraordinary abilities, here are quests that could discover such possibilities:

Blessing: Do a favor for a god, and the god will do you a favor, too.
Breathe underwater: Locate the merman king and give him a perfect pearl.
Find safe passage through a terrible place: Bargain with Lady Luck: a week of safe passage now for a week of dangers later…but she picks the week of dangers.
Heal a terrible poison or disease, or blindness or deafness: Recover the long-lost vessel of liquid that heals any malady, or act with good faith toward a wounded creature of kindness.
Raise the dead: Journey to the lands of the dead and recover the lost soul, possibly by dancing, gaming, or jousting with Death himself. (Note: a DCC module deals with this exact subject. Look for DCC #74: Blades against Death as an example of how to perform such a quest.)
Remove a curse: Aside from specific methods as noted in Appendix C, consider a trip to the cave of the Oldest Crone, patron of witches, where the black stone representing that curse must be destroyed.
Speak with the dead: Obtain the tongue of a still-living witch who gives it willingly, then place it in the mouth of the corpse.
Slay an immortal: Find the hall of souls, where a candle is lit for every living being, somewhere on a divine plane of existence, and snuff the candle that represents that immortal’s soul.
Summon creatures from beyond: Find the creature’s representation in the vast collection of statues kept by Gorgon, the medusa god, then carry that statue back to the mortal realms and turn it to flesh.
Tame a dragon mount: Simply steal a dragon’s egg and raise it from birth. Or, to tame an adult dragon, find the eggshell from which it hatched, which most dragons secure in a secret location.
Total party kill: Don’t end the game! Transport all the player characters to Hell—where they can give in to Death’s demands or try to fight their way out!
Unparalleled power: To achieve unparalleled power, make a pact with a deity of enormous power and promise it that which it cannot otherwise obtain.
Weapon proficiency: Find a true master of the indicated weapon and adventure with him, earning a potential bonus of +1 to +3 on attacks with that weapon given sufficient time. Of course the master may have demands of his own, and will expect much of his apprentice.
Wield a legendary magic weapon: Recover the magic weapon from its last known location.


Awesome. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:00 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
"If you didn't need a rule for it in 1974, then you don't need a rule for it now."


If that was the case there would be no need to buy a new game. :)

DCC RPG has things that the 1974 version didn’t (i.e. luck, the funnel, Mighty Deeds, etc.). I like the things it adds the game (that is why the PDF release this week is eagerly anticipated). OD&D is a great framework for a freeform game, but it lacks interesting mechanics for the most part. I like that the DCC RPG is not a totally freeform game that and that it adds some interesting mechanics to what was already there in 1974. I also like that the DCC RPG stays a pretty rule-lite game while adding the interesting mechanics. However, by adding to the 1974 game the DCC RPG kind of gives up the right to use the “if you didn’t need a rule for it in 1974 . . .” line.

That said I like the advice given above and I think those things work great for things that are not going to be common in the game. If every PC will want to raise ability scores at some point (maybe even multiple times) then it is probably better to have a non-quest answer for it. But this is better done on a group by group basis. A game can’t anticipate the needs of every group that will play it. That is why house rules work great with RPGs.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:03 am 
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Zdanman wrote:
Dare I say - very very good news!

Now the only issues that I would potentially have with the game is the the total inability to raise stats in-game via level advancement or other natural (non-magical) means. Hackmaster has a method of raising stats that works reasonably well. If this is addressed I will be one happy RPG monkey.


The stat raise thing got me thinking this morning. I plan our the 4e point-buy for ability sores (yes I know this goes agiant the intent of the game . . . yadda, yadda, yadda). So I think I will give an extra stat increase point at each even level. It takes 1 point to go from 10 to 11 and 4 points to go from 17 to 18 just to give you a sense of the impact.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:38 am 
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I hope wizardly corruption hasn't been completely trivialized - I liked the concept of magic being a (sometimes difficult) choice. Wizards should be mutated monstrosities by 10th level, in my opinion.

On the original topic, I suspect the HackMaster versions of AD&D modules would be a good fit for DCC. I am thinking particularly about running Temple of Existential Evil and Little Keep on the Borderlands. I might even try Castle Zagyg (from Troll Lord Games), although I would have to make it significantly more dark, trippy and weird to fit DCC's style.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:48 am 
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Joseph: Very cool answer and I expect kinda expected you to answer this way. I will surely try this method in one campaign or another but some people will not be experienced DM's. For example - I am a player. I played old school DnD (1e mainly and B/X) but rarely DM'ed. DCC RPG will be my first shot at true long-term DM'ing. I fully understand that the concept of the DCC rpg will not include some thing from "modern" gaming but some people might come from such a background. That is why I asked. My players will likely be 3e and 4e players and probably will expect some form of stat increases. But alas - this where house rules come in. I suspect that nothing will be disturbed if I import the HackMaster rule I talked about or some version of stat raising from 3e/4e.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:43 pm 
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And hers a good point to the Judge struggling with adventure ideas. Of course, the best thing do is just purchase a Dungeon Crawl Classics Adventure from the fine folks at Goodman Games, available right here on this website. Barring that, though. If there's something the PCs want, make an adventure and let them go get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:15 am 
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So, could an original DCC module (the ones that came out before the DCC rpg) and the old classics like Tomb of Horrors etc, be run using the DCC Rpg, or does the DCC Rpg enforce a different kind of vibe/atmosphere?

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:34 am 
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Thane wrote:
So, could an original DCC module (the ones that came out before the DCC rpg) and the old classics like Tomb of Horrors etc, be run using the DCC Rpg, or does the DCC Rpg enforce a different kind of vibe/atmosphere?


For the most part the game doesn’t really enforce a weird tone/vibe. The system is a D&D spinoff at its core and can be played any way the DM/group wants. The corruption for spell use is really the only thing that enforces a certain tone and until we see the final rules it is hard to say exactly how much it does that.

So I would say that the DM/adventures will do most of the dictating of tone/vibe.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:24 am 
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fjw70 wrote:
Zdanman wrote:
Dare I say - very very good news!

Now the only issues that I would potentially have with the game is the the total inability to raise stats in-game via level advancement or other natural (non-magical) means. Hackmaster has a method of raising stats that works reasonably well. If this is addressed I will be one happy RPG monkey.


What method does HM use?


Sorry I missed your post. I believe the new HM uses additional percentile numbers after the statistics and when you level up you choose what statistic you want to increase and roll a die. The percentile number increase by the die roll, when it reaches 100%, the statistic goes up. Of course this has to have in-game actions follow the training but I like this method.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:38 am 
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That is not a bad method. I have also seen a house rule method for pre-3e D&D where each time you gain a level you can choose one stat to attempt to increase. You then roll 3d6 and if you roll higher than your current score it increases by one. It makes it easy to increase low scores and very hard to increase already high scores. It makes some sense but I think I like the HM way better for a random increase method.

Thanks for sharing.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:44 am 
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Hey fjw, where did you hear about that last rule (aka reroll a stat every level)? I wrote a similar article on my blog a while back (Swords of Minaria)?


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:02 am 
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I have to say, I like both these mechanics (the 3d6 method and the % method). Not that I am ready to put them in the "official" rules but as far as mechanics go, they are both clever and elegant.

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:06 am 
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Galadrin wrote:
Hey fjw, where did you hear about that last rule (aka reroll a stat every level)? I wrote a similar article on my blog a while back (Swords of Minaria)?


I believe I heard it on either the Roll For Initiative or Save or Die podcasts.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:08 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
I have to say, I like both these mechanics (the 3d6 method and the % method). Not that I am ready to put them in the "official" rules but as far as mechanics go, they are both clever and elegant.


Speaking of rules, it's a couple days after April 1st. Anything to report?


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:09 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
I have to say, I like both these mechanics (the 3d6 method and the % method). Not that I am ready to put them in the "official" rules but as far as mechanics go, they are both clever and elegant.


Just shooting an idea out there but after the core book is released maybe there will be a possibility of a web-page PDF of those kinds of sample "optional" mechanics for DCC. Nothing, just say 5 pages or so for people who want to try to add something to DCC. Maybe a primer on how to modify DCC to fit your campaign? Something along those lines. For example - many OSR people like the addition of simple feat-like abilities to their games. Adventurer Conqueror King has this in proficiencies, DCC could have it in some form too.

Anyways just proposing an idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:23 am 
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Zdanman wrote:
Just shooting an idea out there...


Sounds like you should write it for a CRAWL! article instead! I have to say, "house rules" from the get-go of the release are not my boat (especially from the game designer, as I'd assume the game would be as the designer intended it when released). Remember the motto from Beta: play it as it is, at least once, to try it on its own terms.

CRAWL!, however, is the perfect place to put an article on this subject!

Echoing the previous question, any hint on the release of the DCC PDF? We are all pretty eager I think...


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:33 am 
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Galadrin wrote:
Zdanman wrote:
Just shooting an idea out there...


Sounds like you should write it for a CRAWL! article instead! I have to say, "house rules" from the get-go of the release are not my boat (especially from the game designer, as I'd assume the game would be as the designer intended it when released). Remember the motto from Beta: play it as it is, at least once, to try it on its own terms.

CRAWL!, however, is the perfect place to put an article on this subject!

Echoing the previous question, any hint on the release of the DCC PDF? We are all pretty eager I think...


You are probably right as far as actual rules go. But I think a PDF on how to modify DCC would still be cool (if this is not already in the book) for beginner DM's like me. How not to disturb the feeling and vibe of DCC but still have say - additional character options.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:37 am 
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Galadrin wrote:
Zdanman wrote:
Just shooting an idea out there...


Sounds like you should write it for a CRAWL! article instead! I have to say, "house rules" from the get-go of the release are not my boat (especially from the game designer, as I'd assume the game would be as the designer intended it when released). Remember the motto from Beta: play it as it is, at least once, to try it on its own terms.


I think that is good advice for new stuff in the game, but I have played enough D&D like games to know I prefer point-buy for stats and fixed hp per level.

Quote:
CRAWL!, however, is the perfect place to put an article on this subject!


I need to check this out.

Quote:
Echoing the previous question, any hint on the release of the DCC PDF? We are all pretty eager I think...


My nephews will be over Wednesday night and I was hoping to play a one-off of the new rules with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:47 am 
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Thane wrote:
So, could an original DCC module (the ones that came out before the DCC rpg) and the old classics like Tomb of Horrors etc, be run using the DCC Rpg, or does the DCC Rpg enforce a different kind of vibe/atmosphere?


Vibe and atmosphere can easily be applied to any pre-written modules. That being said, pre-DCC RPG DCC modules and classic modules work perfectly fine. I've been running only pre-made adventures for OD&D & AD&D throughout the beta. I re-skin anything that's "cliche" like orcs & goblins. In fact, in the official rules* there will be tips on how to re-skin humanoids and un-dead (although I don't think un-dead creatures need to be re-skinned, they're perfect as-is.) Some of the wackier adventures, especially early E. Gary Gygax mods, that aren't specifically Greyhawk, already have the right kind of "vibe and atmosphere" so they work perfectly as-is! I've also been running a bunch of One-Page Dungeons, they also work well. My group is going to meet The Minotaur on Thursday.

*Joseph said we can talk about the full release!

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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:55 am 
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reverenddak wrote:
*Joseph said we can talk about the full release!


Well, keep talking. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Classic Modules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:17 am 
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fjw70 wrote:
reverenddak wrote:
*Joseph said we can talk about the full release!


Well, keep talking. :mrgreen:


Seconded. Keep on talking. We want more. More! Especially on characters/classes/combat!


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