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 Post subject: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:48 am 
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For anyone keeping track of the new D&D 'next' (5e) playtest, it is easy to see they are using lots of game concepts that DCC already uses (e.g. the fighter's 'deed' dice, etc.

One idea that is new with 5e, is the concept of advantage/disadvantage dice. Generally, it is used any time the situation warrants a bonus/penalty greater than +1.
If you have advantage or disadvantage on a check, you roll a second d20 when making the roll, and use the highest roll between the dice (for advantage) or lowest roll (for disadvantage). In playtests, this has turned out to be a wildly popular mechanic.

Mathematically, this works out to a +/-4 on the check. That would make it similar (but not =) to a d24 or a d16.

Has anyone thought to replace the d24/d16 rolls with an advantage/disadvantage system?


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:55 am 
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I don't understand. Is it purely where there's a situational bonus? It seems needlessly complex (BOY IMAGINE THAT HOLY CRAP I AM SURPRISED AT WHAT D&D HAS DONE JUST KIDDING NOT REALLY TROLLOLOLOL). I'm also not sure how your math works out... if you roll 18 on d20 #1 and 20 on d20 #2, that's +2 effective to your roll... but if you roll 17 on d20 #2 that's +0 (or effectively -1, I guess).

What in the everloving eff is the point of this?

JUST STEP YOUR DICE UP OR DOWN THE CHAIN, Y'ALL. Much easier.

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RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:03 am 
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beermotor wrote:
I don't understand. Is it purely where there's a situational bonus? It seems needlessly complex...


In play, it is suppose to replace the endless minutia of situational bonuses/penalties. (E.g.: your mounted against a fallen opponent and the enemy has the sun in his eyes. Instead of +1, +1, +1, etc... you just get 'advantage'.)

beermotor wrote:
I'm also not sure how your math works out...


I'm no statistician, but one of the playtest forums went into great detail. Basically, on average, the difference between the two rolls, generally falls within the +/-4 range.

beermotor wrote:
What in the everloving eff is the point of this? JUST STEP YOUR DICE UP OR DOWN THE CHAIN, Y'ALL. Much easier.


Sorry, I guess I should have pre-faced the OP (opening post) with that:
In many parts of the world (e.g. here in remote Canada) we have lots of problems finding Zocchi dice. There is a whole thread about this here at the Goodman Games forum, so I won't go into details.
While I realize Zocchi results can be obtained through different die and simple math, rolling d20's (for attack dice) is instictive for my D&D recruits. There also seems to be an added "fun" factor of getting a "second chance" with an advantage die (as opposed to rolling a d12 with a control die, to get a d24 result, for example).


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:13 am 
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Not to be combative, but I'm not buying the "can't find Zocchi dice" argument; Amazon ships everywhere, don't they?

I can understand why players would want a re-do if they roll crappy. It just seems kind of silly. It's like spreading the Warrior's deed die around... it cheapens the point of the class, in DCC, and in the 5th ed. context it cheapens the original roll.

Ehh, mehhhhhhh I say. I understand you might have some players who resist non d20 shapes or what have you, but it's all just random number generation within specific ranges, so I don't get what the big deal is. Far better (truer to the RAW) to roll a d12 with a control die for 1-24, than re-roll a d20 and perform some complex analysis to figure out what the end result (bonus) is.

To each his own, though.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:37 am 
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This isn't a particularly new concept. Lots of games use bonus/penalty dice. However, most of the games I'm familiar with that use this concept (PDQ, BoL, etc) use d6 or maybe d10 - doing it with a d20 seems so ... swingy. I don't care the math they claim, that's a HUGE variant.

Also, in terms of fumbles/criticals, its a huge multiplier/reducer on the chance of generating them.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:40 am 
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beermotor wrote:
I can understand why players would want a re-do if they roll crappy.

Just to be clear, I think the idea is you roll two d20's and take the appropriate one of them as your result: the high one if you have an advantage over your opponent, the low one if you are disadvantaged.

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Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:09 pm 
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yeah, like the dXkY system in Legend of Five Rings RPG. Where you roll so many dice and keep a lower number of them. I've played LoFR and I think it's a great system, though it's all done with d10's which gives you a smaller standard diviation obviously.

I suppose you could play with that as well, consistency is the main thing. But I prefer the zocchi steps since that's how DCC was written.

Also, regardless of availability, save the extra money and just use the combinations to generate your d16's and d24's. Zocchi dice are way too much money, if you ask me.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:23 pm 
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cjoepar wrote:
Zocchi dice are way too much money, if you ask me.

The dude that runs the eBay listing for all the 'extra' dice seems to have them at a reasonable price...

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Overall, I think that Advantage/Disadvantage dice are one of the most cool new developments in the Next rules set. And it's a really easy rule to apply to lots of situations, which is a definite bonus in my book.

I've heard the +/-4 number thrown around quite a bit and don't have much faith in it, but folks swear it's accurate. I ran a spreadsheet model of this and ended up with some charts that make a lot more sense to me, but bottom line is that it's easy to decide if someone is at advantage or disadvantage and easy to roll the dice to make it work out.

Oh, and this rule wouldn't have to be exclusive to d20 rolls. You could use any funky dice the same way. (Suppose someone was rolling a d16 for attack but was at an advantage; they would roll 2d16 and keep the better of the two numbers. Easy.)

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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:19 am 
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This blog post has a decent look at the statistics of the advantage/disadvantage method.

http://onlinedungeonmaster.com/2012/05/ ... -the-math/


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:46 pm 
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I like the D&D Next concept of Advantage/Disadvantage a lot, actually. But for DCC, I think the concept of rolling a d16 if disadvantaged and a d24 with advantage is WAY COOLER. And I have been using it for a while, and it's kind of in the official rules with d16 for initiative if using 2-handed Weapons and other things I'm sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:09 pm 
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reverenddak wrote:
I like the D&D Next concept of Advantage/Disadvantage a lot, actually. But for DCC, I think the concept of rolling a d16 if disadvantaged and a d24 with advantage is WAY COOLER. And I have been using it for a while, and it's kind of in the official rules with d16 for initiative if using 2-handed Weapons and other things I'm sure.
Oh, I agree that a dice type shift is a great system. I'm just saying that the advantage/disadvantage dice method is pretty sweet, too. 8)

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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:17 pm 
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I think advantage and disadvantage are fun and interesting mechanics - I hate what they do to my players though.

I have one player that refuses to roll damage before he has confirmed that the attack has hit because seeing that he rolled really good damage for the attack and missed frustrates him too much. The other players aren't quite that bad, but they do have a variety of sarcastic responses to the same situation like "Watch out floor, I'm coming for you!" and "Ha! I will destroy the very air surrounding you so that you will suffocate and die. Fear my whiff-blade technique!"

When dealing with advantage... the inevitable pair of failing rolls is double-demoralizing. With disadvantage, same thing as the players get to see the low rolling die "stealing" their success.

Where as my player most emotional involved in die rolls is actually accepting of failure on a decreased die size for some reason I can't really explain because there is no logic behind it - you figure he'd see rolling 2d20 and taking the lower in basically the same light as rolling a d16 or a d14, that being "this roll is a long shot, so it's no big deal to fail," but he doesn't... disadvantage takes his birthday away, a d14 and trying to succeed is just life.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:33 pm 
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TheNobleDrake wrote:
I have one player that refuses to roll damage before he has confirmed that the attack has hit because seeing that he rolled really good damage for the attack and missed frustrates him too much.
This is what I do for all RPGs. I always confirm a hit or miss before my players reach for the damage dice.

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ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:56 pm 
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finarvyn wrote:
Overall, I think that Advantage/Disadvantage dice are one of the most cool new developments in the Next rules set. And it's a really easy rule to apply to lots of situations, which is a definite bonus in my book.

I've heard the +/-4 number thrown around quite a bit and don't have much faith in it, but folks swear it's accurate. I ran a spreadsheet model of this and ended up with some charts that make a lot more sense to me, but bottom line is that it's easy to decide if someone is at advantage or disadvantage and easy to roll the dice to make it work out.

Oh, and this rule wouldn't have to be exclusive to d20 rolls. You could use any funky dice the same way. (Suppose someone was rolling a d16 for attack but was at an advantage; they would roll 2d16 and keep the better of the two numbers. Easy.)


I don't know about other people's statistical explorations but my own revealed that a shift from d16 to d20 was more akin to +/-2. Not 4.

And a d14 to d16 was more like a +/-1.

I could see using this in conjunction wi die shifts. It wouldn't work with TATG because TATG already has a mechanic where multiple dice are rolled and one is chosen.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:50 am 
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smathis wrote:
I don't know about other people's statistical explorations but my own revealed that a shift from d16 to d20 was more akin to +/-2. Not 4.

And a d14 to d16 was more like a +/-1.
Not a complete statistical analysis of the probabilities, but I think that a quick rule of thumb would be to look at the average number from the die and that would give a decent feel for the typical +/- involved.
d3 = 2
d4 = 2.5
d5 = 3
d6 = 3.5
d7 = 4
d8 = 4.5
d10 = 5.5
d12 = 6.5
d14 = 7.5
d16 = 8.5
d20 = 10.5
d24 = 12.5
d30 = 15.5

So a shift from a d16 to d20 would be 10.5-8.5, which is +2. A shift from a d14 to d16 would be 8.5-7.5, which is +1. Smathis' numbers would appear to be spot on.

I think the +/- 4 number quoted was in reference to the D&D Next "advantage/disadvantage dice" system of rolling 2d20 and taking the higher or lower one rolled, not the DCC method of dice type shift.

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DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
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DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:16 am 
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To add more context to the opening post; here are just a few more examples of 5e's advantage/disadvantage system:

Race
Dwarves get 'advantage' when making saves vs. poison.

Monsters
Drow's magic resistance gives them 'advantage' on saves vs. spells.

Curses
A curse of 'uglyness' may give you 'disadvantage' on social checks.

Encumbered
And encumbered person would be at 'disadvantage' on skills, attacks, etc.

Blind
If blinded, you are at 'disadvantage' on attacks, while all attacks against you are at 'advantage'.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:59 am 
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Banesfinger wrote:
To add more context to the opening post; here are just a few more examples of 5e's advantage/disadvantage system:

Race
Dwarves get 'advantage' when making saves vs. poison.

Monsters
Drow's magic resistance gives them 'advantage' on saves vs. spells.

Curses
A curse of 'uglyness' may give you 'disadvantage' on social checks.

Encumbered
And encumbered person would be at 'disadvantage' on skills, attacks, etc.

Blind
If blinded, you are at 'disadvantage' on attacks, while all attacks against you are at 'advantage'.


I'm adopting these with the die chain.

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"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:38 pm 
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I love the advantage/disadvantage rule, probably the single most promising thing in 5E that I've seen.

I also like the dice chain mechanic a lot.

Both are simple, fun ways that take replaces some math (no need to add substract bonuses or penalties) and simply give the player some dice (or a die) to roll.

This being said, one thing to consider if you consider using advantage/disadvantage in DCC, is the importance of crits and fumbles in DCC that is not present in 5E. Using two dice means you'll double your likelihood to get crits in an advantage situation, and double your likelihood to get fumbles in disadvantage situations. You might like this for your game, but I don't know if it wouldn't be too much sugar for mine.

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Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Skyscraper wrote:
<snip> You might like this for your game, but I don't know if it wouldn't be too much sugar for mine.

I know what you mean.

Just this last Friday I had a player who has a Thief with a very high Agility start dual-wielding daggers - just the idea of whether he did or didn't receive Backstab bonuses for both sent me into a panic-like state as I attempted to make a ruling that was easy to remember and consistent, without being overly powerful. (For those that care: the decision I reached was that the attack roll bonus and increased damage from Backstab would apply with both/all attacks that fit the Backstab requirements, but that only 1 successful attack per target per Action would be an automatic critical.)

Edit: forgot to include the per action clause of my rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantage/Disadvantage dice?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:33 pm 
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finarvyn wrote:
Not a complete statistical analysis of the probabilities, but I think that a quick rule of thumb would be to look at the average number from the die and that would give a decent feel for the typical +/- involved.
d3 = 2
d4 = 2.5
d5 = 3
d6 = 3.5
d7 = 4
d8 = 4.5
d10 = 5.5
d12 = 6.5
d14 = 7.5
d16 = 8.5
d20 = 10.5
d24 = 12.5
d30 = 15.5

So a shift from a d16 to d20 would be 10.5-8.5, which is +2. A shift from a d14 to d16 would be 8.5-7.5, which is +1. Smathis' numbers would appear to be spot on.

I think the +/- 4 number quoted was in reference to the D&D Next "advantage/disadvantage dice" system of rolling 2d20 and taking the higher or lower one rolled, not the DCC method of dice type shift.


I don't know about "spot on". But running the numbers inspired me to ditch the d5 and d7 in TATG.

Overall, the DCC dice shift are "closer" to a -2 or +2. But it's not perfect. One of the complications is that a +2 on a d16 gives you a range of 3-18. While a +1 die shift on a d20 gives you a range of 1-20.

If we're just ballparking it, it plays a lot more like a +2/-2 than a +4/-4. But ballparking it is about as good as I got.


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