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 Post subject: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:49 am 
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OK so I am getting bugged by players (including the wife) for DCC versions of the following.

Ranger (2 votes the rest one time each)
Monk
Bard
and Paladin

Well I see no harm in trying a DCC stylisation of these favorites (to some anyhow) of AD&D but thought I'd start a thread to see if any other Play-test GM or player has been asked for rules/stats on new classes. I had a quick gander at these forums first, but could only see a thread on the controversial race as Class in a similar vein to this.

Can some kind soul (a forum Moderator perhaps?) direct me to where Class discussion lies or else feel free to post up any feed back on the subject you have been getting here.

I'd be keen for Mr G or his most excellent staff to let us know if at any time other classes are planned for DCC? if that's the subject of the games first supliment then thats fine, just wanna know how in depth I need to go with my house rules LOL! - if one of these favored classes is gonna be official sometime in the future!

Gonna let this post sit for 24 hours for feedback/re-direction then paste in my first conversion to DCC, based on personal preference and player pressure!

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My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:09 am 
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Ok so 22 Views but no comments guess I should show the idle curious how I have been getting on :lol:

DCC Experimental ClassThe Mystic

OK so the Monk is hardly an OD&D class I know but it was toyed with in 1st Ed AD&D and throughout the development of the game.
Personally I have always liked the idea of a martial artist/ninja type as being a player option. But I also loved the original Psionics rules as well making me some kind of... Well choose your own words there Its OK I'm getting therapy now. SO what I have tried to do here is merge the two slightly. It was published in a Dragon Mag a long time ago how so many Monk abilities resembled Psi Powers that the marriage of the two always made sense to me. So here it is DCC style for you to groan over.

I would be pretty suprised if anything like this made it to the final rule book but this is a class that I personally love so to get my brain rolling on the serious idea of new classes for DCC here I go.

The Mystic
The Mystic is a solitary warrior dedicated to refining his mind and body by mental and physical regimes to become enlightened and the pinnacle of what he can be regardless of his physical or mental limitations. Some Mystics take up the practice of arms and become masters of weapon play others choose a more cerebral approach and learn to harness the minds innermost resources. While a few more seek ultimate balance and this expresses itself in heightened perception and a grace of movement that is unrivaled among mortal creatures.

The Mystics alignment helps determine which techniques will come easily to them but in time and in theory. Any Mystic could achieve mastery of all the known disciplines of the Martial Arts. Each Mystic has some advantages when choosing to fight un armed, but most recognize having a back up weapon or two is simple prudence in the dark and dangerous world of DCC!

Mystic Progression Table
Level Hit Dice Level title Experience required Attack Ref Fort Will
1 2d6 Novice 1-1100 +0 +1 +0 +1
2 3d6 Initiate 1101-2200 +1 +2 +0 +1
3 4d6 Illuminate 2201-4400 +2 +2 +1 +1
4 5d6 Disciple 4401-9000 +2 +3 +1 +2
5 6d6 Immaculate 9001-18,000 +3 +3 +2 +2
6 7d6 Acolyte 18001-36000 +3 +4 +2 +3
7 8d6 Junior Master 36001-72000 +4 +4 +3 +3
8 9d6 Master 72001-144000 +4 +5 +3 +4
9 10d6 Superior Master 144001-288000 +5 +5 +4 +4
10 11d6 Grand Master 288001+ +5 +6 +4 +5

Each level the Mystic attains they gain one of the twenty four sacred disciplines of the Ki. Which Discipline they choose to learn at each level is up to them but certain disciplines have a minimum experience threshold to aquire. This threshold varies dependent upon the Mystic alignment.

Mystic Alignment Path Level Discipline may be Learned at=
Discipline........................................Lawful............Neutral........Chaotic
    1) Unearthly Agility ...........................3...............1...............2
    2) Unhindered Step...............................3...............1...............2
    3) Preternatural Senses ........................2...............1...............3
    4) Empathy........................................4...............2...............6
    5) Invisibility......................................2...............1...............3
    6) Swiftness.......................................6...............2...............4
    7) Timelessness...................................5...............3...............7
    8 ) Ki Healing......................................4...............2...............6
    9) Discern Ki......................................1...............2...............3
    10) Mind over Body..............................1...............2...............3
    11) Ki Charge......................................3...............5...............7
    12) Ki Projection.....................................2...............6...............4
    13) Precognition......................................3...............5...............7
    14) Paralyzing Touch................................1...............3...............5
    15) Hypnotism.........................................1...............2...............3
    16) Levitation..........................................3...............5...............7
    17) Ki Fist...............................................7...............4...............1
    18) Weapon Mastery.................................7...............4...............1
    19) Toughness.........................................7...............5...............3
    20) Deadly Fist.........................................5...............3...............1
    21) Suspend life........................................5...............3...............1
    22) Inured to Elements...............................6...............4................2
    23) Ki Drain..............................................5...............7................3
    24) Lions Strength.....................................7...............5................3

Key
A= Automatic power always on U= Use power limited manifestations per day.


Half of these disciplines once acquired provide a permanent bonus or other effect to the Mystic character while other half require an action to summon forth. A Mystic can use a total usage of Activational abilities equal to their experience level + Stamina bonus per day. It requires 8 hours of sleep or 6 hours of uninterrupted meditation to refresh this pool of uses

At First level the Mystic chooses One Discipline and receives one random bonus one per point of Stamina bonus they posses.

If a Mystic chooses to fight barehanded they automatically are considered dual wielding at one agility category higher than their actual agility score (Max is still 18). Bare handed attacks do 1d3 damage each, but may be enhanced by certain disciplines (see hereafter)
A Mystic adds their level to their armor class provide they are wearing no armor at all. If wearing light armor they can add half their level (up) Medium or heavy armor gain no bonuses.

Mystic Disciplines
These are not spells but a combination of advanced training and Mental powers combined. They can only be used by someone that has dedicated their life to attaining them, they are by no means normal skills. Any Mystic can in time learn any discipline but certain alignments find certain disciplines easier to master hence there being different Level thresholds for each Discipline for a Mystic of a given alignment. Each level that a Mystic attains entitles them to choose mastery of another Discipline (subject to level limits)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the old forum page mangled the formatting.. I'll go back and edit that in a bit to correct it. Not going to post the detailed descriptions of the Mystics Disciplines unless I get positive feedback on the basic class idea here presented. Over to you good folks let me know if I have anything worth having here :)

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


Last edited by Ducaster on Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:53 am 
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I'm not trying to discourage you, but from what I've understood about dcc, it's that it's more limited in scope of player options. Limiting the player choices does a few things, 1) it prevents game breaking classes from appearing (4e paladins are murder machines that can heal, at least on my games). 2) it cuts character generation down to a matter of minutes vs the hours I've spent creating pregens in 4e, and 3) it brings role playing back into role playing games. Your dcc cleric isn't charging into battle wearing plate armor and carrying a mace, unlike 4e. Limited choices make for a more memorable game, especially when it's not the gm doing railroading
Just my 2 cents


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:25 am 
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Hit dice are strange. Just use a straight up d8 or d10. There's no reason why this class should be AWESOME at first level in terms of survivability and then just MEH at 5th level and up.

I don't want to encourage you :) but I think this kind of thing is needed for the long term viability of DCCRPG beyond a beer and pretzels game. I'm not sure your effort will be enough to sustain it though. It needs better buy-in at the top. Goodman has implied that he wants and expects these kinds of third party classes to come about but we haven't really seen any support for it yet and that makes me nervous.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:20 am 
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I find it difficult to comment on the class when the actual meat & potatoes are missing. Even a few examples would help. I can note, however, that you get one discipline per level, and there are ten levels, but for any given alignment there appear to be only eight disciplines.

I do not like the terms Junior Master and Superior Master. I would prefer Elder for Junior Master and High Master for Superior.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:45 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Hit dice are strange. Just use a straight up d8 or d10. There's no reason why this class should be AWESOME at first level in terms of survivability and then just MEH at 5th level and up.

I don't want to encourage you :) but I think this kind of thing is needed for the long term viability of DCCRPG beyond a beer and pretzels game. I'm not sure your effort will be enough to sustain it though. It needs better buy-in at the top. Goodman has implied that he wants and expects these kinds of third party classes to come about but we haven't really seen any support for it yet and that makes me nervous.


I agree with you totally which is one reason I thought to see what happens if I got the ball rolling as it were? Good reaction Bad reaction? ANY REACTION!? From both other Gm's players and anyone on GG staff as I said in my preface to this thread.

On the hit points, OK I admit it that I was harking back to the 2 dice at first level of the old Monk class. I guess I hope that by the time 5th level comes around the Mystic will not be just a different Kind of fighting machine, but will have brought his semi Psi Disciplines into play to help him.

Which brings me to the point made by:-
Eldric IV wrote:
I find it difficult to comment on the class when the actual meat & potatoes are missing. Even a few examples would help. I can note, however, that you get one discipline per level, and there are ten levels, but for any given alignment there appear to be only eight disciplines.

I do not like the terms Junior Master and Superior Master. I would prefer Elder for Junior Master and High Master for Superior.


After this reply Post I'll set out some of my prototype "Disciplines" for further comment. But as for level tital? So not worried about that! They are needed for flavor but I am fine with any and all the changes you suggest.

Yes at this time I could only think of 8 Disciplines per Alignment. However (unless I goofed real bad) I thought I said that ANY alignment of Mystic can use ANY discipline. Its is just the level at which they can be used changes. A Lawful Mystic will in general take a lot more levels to be able to master a Discipline a Chaotic one can get at low level. At least that was my intent anyhow.

Abchiptop wrote:
I'm not trying to discourage you, but from what I've understood about dcc, it's that it's more limited in scope of player options. Limiting the player choices does a few things, 1) it prevents game breaking classes from appearing (4e paladins are murder machines that can heal, at least on my games). 2) it cuts character generation down to a matter of minutes vs the hours I've spent creating pregens in 4e, and 3) it brings role playing back into role playing games. Your dcc cleric isn't charging into battle wearing plate armor and carrying a mace, unlike 4e. Limited choices make for a more memorable game, especially when it's not the gm doing railroading
Just my 2 cents


Well as jmucchiello mentioned Mr Goodman himself was my inspiration for having an early go at a new class. And while I see merit in your points that Keep it simple and slick is a good thing. It does not appear to be one of the long term goals for DCC as I understand them from the limited feed back available. But your point is valid and I wish to goodness that GG will set there "official" position out some time. It might be that the Core four and Demi humans + a heap of RP is what DCC should have.

All I can say for now is that I have players clamoring for more so I am gonna take a stab at giving it to them as we have no official add ons (to a Beta forsooth! Listen to me will ya! LOL) as of yet.

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My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:51 am 
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As Promised here are the Lawful Aligned DIsciplines I have come up with. My "vision" is that the Lawful Mystic is more the Psion type with activational abilities that they use to creat spell like effects to aid their quests and so forth.

Lawful Aligned Disciplines
Discern Ki
Type Daily Use, informational power
The Mystic gets to know the general alignment of all targets in his line of sight that fail a will save Vs his Pre + Level DC. Additionally if the target is a Mystic or a Spell caster this also is known to them.

Mind over Body
Type Automatic, Health enhancing power
The Mystic becomes adept at keeping his bodies needs under their conscious control. As such they always heal 2 hp per nights rest and only require half as much sleep as most others. Saves Vs Poisons or diseases are also boosted by one half his Mystic level (down)

Ki Charge
Type Daily Use Offensive power
The Mystic can place a charge of their own Ki energy in an unliving object. This object can also have a release condition placed upon it, which when met or the object is destroyed the charged Ki blasts free doing 1d6+Mystic level damage to all in a 10' Radius. This blast may set light to normally flammable materials. The charge lasts for 24 hours then harmlessly dissipates of Blows free as desired.

Ki Projection
Type Daily Use Offensive power
The Mystic can shoot out a bolt of his own Life energy at a single target. The Target gets a Reflex save to dodge the attack, but if struck they take 1d4+ Mystic level damage and are stunned for as many rounds as were rolled on the d4 variable as well. The energy may manifest as any type that the Mystic desires, but once they have chosen how their Ki blasts look like that is now fixed.

Precognition
Type Daily Use informational Power
The Mystic can enter a trance like meditation and dimly foresee the future. Like the Cleric Augury spell.


Paralyzing Touch
Type Daily Use Offensive power
Upon successfully delivering a touch attack or bare handed blow the Mystic sends a blast of focused Ki energy through the targets nervous system causing a Fort Save or they are frozen in place for the Mystics level in melee rounds.


Hypnotism
Type Daily Use, Offensive/informational power
The Mystic uses their Ki to alter the thoughts of another thinking being to become compliant to their will. The Target gets a Will save Vs 10+ the Mystics level + Pre Score modifier. If they fail they can be given a single non aggressive non life endangering command by the Mystic mentally. The command can be no more than 12 words long

Levitation
Type Daily Use, Movement power
The Mystics focused Ki allows then to defy gravity in a limited way. They can float straight up or down at a rate of 20' per round for as many rounds as they have mystic levels. While levitating they are considered to have the mass of a feather and thus could be blown about by strong winds etc.

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:50 pm 
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I kinda like the original idea, but i don't think dcc is the right place for it.

These disciplines look way too "3rd edition-ey" for my taste

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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:40 pm 
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abk108 wrote:
I kinda like the original idea, but i don't think dcc is the right place for it.

These disciplines look way too "3rd edition-ey" for my taste

Thanks for the feed back. You may be right, but so far its been a pretty well received house rule here. *Shrug* Hopefully we'll get some official direction on the subject sooner or later.

I just wanted to create something that was neither a spell nor a skill per say. Can you see a different way to achieve this without getting too 3rd ed ish? I could use the tips :D

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My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:38 am 
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Ducaster wrote:
abk108 wrote:
I kinda like the original idea, but i don't think dcc is the right place for it.

These disciplines look way too "3rd edition-ey" for my taste

Thanks for the feed back. You may be right, but so far its been a pretty well received house rule here. *Shrug* Hopefully we'll get some official direction on the subject sooner or later.

I just wanted to create something that was neither a spell nor a skill per say. Can you see a different way to achieve this without getting too 3rd ed ish? I could use the tips :D


I shall meditate, and come back.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:13 am 
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I had a player ask to play a Ranger. Basically what I told her is that she would be playing a fighter, but when "Ranger situations" came up I'd give her a bonus on die rolls. We kept the bonus vague, depending upon the situation. She had played an C&C Ranger before and asked about a favored foe and we agreed to give her a +1 attack against orcs. Seemed to work pretty well and not at all complex. The key is that you have to be willing to "wing it" as needed. This also helps to nullify the "power gamer" syndrome.

The same theory works if a player wants any sort of special background. If they can suggest a little something that they think would be cool and not unbalance the campaign, I'm likely to give it to them. If they submit a long list I tell them they need to rethink their character.

Anyway, works for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:01 am 
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finarvyn wrote:
I had a player ask to play a Ranger. Basically what I told her is that she would be playing a fighter, but when "Ranger situations" came up I'd give her a bonus on die rolls. We kept the bonus vague, depending upon the situation. She had played an C&C Ranger before and asked about a favored foe and we agreed to give her a +1 attack against orcs. Seemed to work pretty well and not at all complex. The key is that you have to be willing to "wing it" as needed. This also helps to nullify the "power gamer" syndrome.

The same theory works if a player wants any sort of special background. If they can suggest a little something that they think would be cool and not unbalance the campaign, I'm likely to give it to them. If they submit a long list I tell them they need to rethink their character.

Anyway, works for me.


This is almost exactly what I had been doing for the many (now up to 4) requests to play rangers!

It was just coz Mr G mentioned someplace (jmucchiello can you recall exactly where faster than I? - As you also recalled seeing it from your previous comment) that He wanted more classes that I'd try this experiment.

The more I look at many of the "classes" being asked about the harder it is to think of a DCC "spin" on them and not just clone the AD&D ones :( The Mystic was the only one thus far I had significant ideas for that wasn't (quite) a blatant Monk rip off.

Perhaps the way to go is offer Players & DM's is as you say a discretionary package of a few bonuses for players that can ROLE PLAY their way into Rangerhood.... I had a perfectly good Animal Trainer justify his warrior into being defined as more ranger than Soldier not too long ago. Maybe that's the way to go? Please give us (Me!) a hint Mr G at your soonest!!

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My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:22 am 
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After reading Tortogs recent post
(viewtopic.php?f=69&t=15967&p=47374#p47374)

I thought this was a better place to post an idea than take that one off topic.

Non humans as classes (yes I know it has its own thread I may cross link hold on!)

Seems to me that folks have a common objection to all of them. Is in a nutshell; the race/class doesn't fit their perception of their character.

IE they have an Elf that they want to be a warrior. But they are not really good enough to go toe to toe in battle and their INT sucks for a spell assist.
Or they have a Dwarf that they picture as more of a craftsman rather than a warrior
Or they fancy a Hobbit that has some magical talent etc

As Humans effectively have 4 classes to choose from and low attributes are not necessarily a bar to taking any of them can we not grant each non human class two options at least? A warrior path and a Wizardly or skill based path?

A dwarf could be a fighter dwarf as already expressed in the rules or maybe he could be a Dwarven "smith" Who has less fighting skills but has limited skills and or magic like abilities?

The elf could be the fighter/mage option as presented of go for the "Ranger" (to use a controversial word) that has less or no magic but better hit dice and weapon skills??

The Halfling could stay the Rogue like creature they already have or maybe take a "Sage" option where they forfeit their luck modifying ability in exchange for being able to read spell scrolls or books even more effectively than a Rogue? I dunno just some random thoughts.

If you can think of a better place to put this post please say so and I'll cross link it and carry on the discussion (if any) there. Thanks -D

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{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Ducaster wrote:
...As Humans effectively have 4 classes to choose from and low attributes are not necessarily a bar to taking any of them can we not grant each non human class two options at least?...

Well why not 4 options? Or why not have more classes for Human's, too? Why not 16 of everything, including dessert?

You've got to draw the line somewhere. Joe has drawn his line.

There's expectation that third-party developers will expand on the basic book -- doubtless including new classes all-around, and new options for races, etc. ad infinitum.

My personal 2-cents is: I want as few classes as feasible in the core rules, so I can tailor my (potential) campaign without it looking to my players that I've "arbitrarily" dumped things that don't fit. If I need other/new classes, I can develop them (or find other's other/new classes on the web).

Also, I like dessert. Just sayin'.

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Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:30 pm 
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I can see "converting" characters that don't conform to the core rules not being so difficult.

Using my friends group that is going through the DCC modules as an example:

Nightwing's ranger would become a warrior with a hunting background. I'd drop his hit dice to d10 and offer him to switch out Mighty Deeds for the traditional AD&D/C&C ranger bonus to attack humanoid opponents, i. e. he gets one or the other. The d10 would be the trade off for good tracking skills.

Ragnar1965's cleric/wizard would remain a cleric/wizard, simply re-tooled to DCC-RPG rules regarding spell casting.

JediWife's elven fighter with a bow specialization would become an elven archer and we would keep the hit dice of the elf, but switch out the spell-casting ability of the elf for the Mighty Deed of the warrior, but only for the bow. I'm not sure how we would keep using her cold iron long sword. :D

Sadly, I think this is purely academic on my part since I don't think the group as a whole would want to move away from Castles & Crusades, even on an occasional basis.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:31 am 
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All three look like excellent conversions to me, and with minimal rules changes needed.
JediOre wrote:
Nightwing's ranger would become a warrior with a hunting background. I'd drop his hit dice to d10 and offer him to switch out Mighty Deeds for the traditional AD&D/C&C ranger bonus to attack humanoid opponents, i. e. he gets one or the other. The d10 would be the trade off for good tracking skills.
These sound like balanced tradeoffs, and give a ranger without making a super-class.

JediOre wrote:
Ragnar1965's cleric/wizard would remain a cleric/wizard, simply re-tooled to DCC-RPG rules regarding spell casting.
Essentially giving the character access to both. It would be interesting to see if the MU/Cleric spell balance would shift compared to C&C. In other words, if you could track what percent MU spells are cast now, then see what percent MU spells get cast once corruption gets introduced, it could tell us a lot.

JediOre wrote:
JediWife's elven fighter with a bow specialization would become an elven archer and we would keep the hit dice of the elf, but switch out the spell-casting ability of the elf for the Mighty Deed of the warrior, but only for the bow. I'm not sure how we would keep using her cold iron long sword. :D
Perhaps the long sword isn't cold iron, but bronze or some other metal.

JediOre wrote:
Sadly, I think this is purely academic on my part since I don't think the group as a whole would want to move away from Castles & Crusades, even on an occasional basis.
That's unfortunate, having to choose one cool RPG over another. Perhaps you an imports parts of DCC (maybe the spell charts or something) into your C&C game. Kind of slip it in there, all casual and underhanded. :wink:

Maybe you could try the characters for a couple of game sessions in a totally different module and as an "alternate universe" and tell them that if they don't like the way the conversions work out you could rejoin their plotline exactly where they were before the experiment.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:50 am 
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Mystic Class: It needs a little polish, but I like it... I think I might try something like this for my game. :D

I find the lack of classes deeply frustrating. I've already written up class descriptions for Barbarians & Rangers; right now I'm working on the Bard class. I'm disappointed that GG isn't doing more to make this game compatible with previously published materials. I have to write the mechanics for the above + the stuff for Druids, Half-Elves, Half-Orks, Gnomes... if I want to get any playability out of my shelf full of DCC modules. Honestly, trying to run a campaign with just the "Core 4... and the tag-along races" is like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with a crayola 8 pack that's missing a few colors.

The idea of adding classes keeps coming up on different threads, and the responses here are fairly typical. The objections follow the same logic most of the time: DCC RPG is set up for enhanced creativity through limiting choices. Honestly, as logic goes... that is some first class double-speak. George Orwell would be proud.

***

Here's my version of Ranger: When I wrote it I was using the Appendix N character of Aragorn; no magic spells or animal companions.

Description: A Ranger must have an Agility score of at least 8, because Rangers prefer to fight with 2 weapons and will not train anyone who isn’t capable. They roam the wild places of Áereth keeping watch on all that has been forgotten, fighting to protect Nature’s Balance. They are usually acting under the direction of Druids, but not always. They are not comfortable in urban surroundings, and lose many of their abilities until they are at least 1 mile away from towns & villages, 10 miles from larger cities.

Hit Points: 1d10 + Stamina Bonus

Weapon Training: Masters of the wild, they use a light weapon in each hand to emulate the claws of beasts. So the: Blackjack, Club, Dagger, Handaxe, Quarter Staff (as double or single weapon), & Short Sword are their weapons of choice for melee combat. For ranged attacks they use: Daggers, Darts, Javelins, Short Bow, & Slings. They are also capable of using Long Swords and Spears when necessary.

Armor: Rangers do not use shields or heavy armors as these things slow them down in the wilderness. Also, they are not allowed to wear metal armors if they wish to use their Nature’s Ally Dice.

Alignment: Usually Good

Natures Ally Action Die:
Whenever Rangers are within one of their preferred terrain environments: & not wearing heavy armor, then this die functions exactly as a Fighters Attack die & allows the Ranger to use MdoA charts. A Ranger may choose instead to apply this die to any skill checks or Initiative rolls made within preferred environments; but cannot do all of these in the same round. There are no “Urban Rangers”… those are called Thieves…

Two-weapon fighting:
Rangers are better at this than any other Class. They Use their own table and ignore the standard rules about multiple action dice: they simply add that attack at the end of the others.

Luck: A Ranger’s Luck always applies to their AC if they are in one of their preferred terrain types.

Rangers & terrain: they start play as masters of one type of terrain, but may master a # of terrain types = their INT bonus. Terrain types are: Arctic, Aquatic (fresh water), Aquatic (salt water) Desert, Forest, Jungle, Mountain, Planes, Subterranean, Swamp, Tidal Zone, Wild-Space.

Ranger 2-weap. Fighting Table:

Agility____Primary Hand____Off Hand_____Critical Hits

8-9__________+1d14_______+1d12 ______Cannot Crit
10-11________+1d16_______+1d14______Primary hand Crits on a Max Roll:
_____________________________________Secondary hand cannot Crit
12-13________+1d16_______+1d16______Both hand Crit on Max Roll
14-15________+1d20_______+1d16______Primary hand Crit within threat range;
_____________________________________Off Hand on Max Roll
16-17________+1d20_______+1d20______Crit as normal on each hand
18___________+1d24_______+1d20______Crit as normal on each hand;
_____________________________________but +1 higher Crit table

Ranger Class Table:

______Attack__Crit. Die &____Threat___Action________Natures Ally_______SAVES:
Lvl___Bonus___/Crit. Table___Range____Dice_________Action Dice____Ft____Rx___W

1_____+1 _____1d12/I________20______1d20____________+1d3_______+1___+1___+0
2_____+1_____1d14/I________20______1d20 ____________+1d3_______+2___+1___+1
3_____+2_____1d16/II_______20______1d20_____________+1d4_______+2___+2___+1
4_____+2_____1d20/II_______19+_____1d20+1d12________+1d4_______+3___+2___+2
5_____+3_____1d24/III______19+____1d20+1d14_________+1d5_______+3___+3___+2


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Tortog wrote:
The objections follow the same logic most of the time: DCC RPG is set up for enhanced creativity through limiting choices. Honestly, as logic goes... that is some first class double-speak. George Orwell would be proud.

I don't think that's quite accurate...I'd say it's set up for enhanced creativity by NOT limiting your choices. Having an official ranger class in the rulebook limits you to having rangers be like they are presented in the rules instead of how you want them to be. *shrug* In my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:03 am 
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mythfish wrote:
...
I don't think that's quite accurate...I'd say it's set up for enhanced creativity by NOT limiting your choices.

I disagree... watching my players make their characters, the only thing they get to choose is alignment. Their class choice is essentially dictated by whatever class their stats might be capable of performing, and equipment is determined by class choice and their amount of cash. the player is allowed to role play all they want, but the system is designed to start you humble and (without serious DM intervention) keep you there. Anyone who doesn't play a warrior is "swimming upstream against the rules."

Quote:
Having an official ranger class in the rulebook limits you to having rangers be like they are presented in the rules instead of how you want them to be. *shrug* In my opinion.


Again, I must respectfully disagree. Folks are no more locked into that type of ranger than they are locked into a specific type of warrior. Providing a ranger class does give common guidelines as to how DCC RPG wants the ranger class to relate to the other classes in terms of powers and abilities. DM/Players are always free to increase or decrease abilities of the classes. Or remove the class if they don't like or want it, but the DCC system makes that choice for you. Same goes for all the missing classes.

Most of my argument stems from the fact that the DCCRPG doesn't better support previous material. Most DCC modules have classes and such that the RPG simply won't support well. To me that just seems odd. Besides, not every DM is going to have the time or ability to write reams of info for a campaign. If the author is comfortable marketing to such a narrow market of DM enthusiasts... well not gonna sell too many copies... it's a small market. Especially with so many other options to spend our time with, but its his ship and he's the captain... and its not like the books will disintegrate if you don't play it his way. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Tortog wrote:
...Most DCC modules have classes and such that the RPG simply won't support well...

Of course, that's all NPC opponents (and occasional allies), and (at least in my opinion) that fits in with the idea that monsters should be unique, if you consider the term 'monsters' to be functionally the same/similar to 'opponents'. An opponent with an ability that the PCs don't have access to is not a bad thing, is it?

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Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:10 pm 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
Tortog wrote:
...Most DCC modules have classes and such that the RPG simply won't support well...

Of course, that's all NPC opponents (and occasional allies), and (at least in my opinion) that fits in with the idea that monsters should be unique, if you consider the term 'monsters' to be functionally the same/similar to 'opponents'. An opponent with an ability that the PCs don't have access to is not a bad thing, is it?


Certainly one way of looking at it and a viewpoint that I share, in a general sense: but DCC RPG has now expanded that realm of opponents to include classes and races that have been long time favorites for a lot of folks like myself. Having such limited options for characters to play and then being confronted by some of the stuff you'd rather be playing... to me that'd just be pouring salt in the wound.

"Look at all this cool stuff! You can't have it... nah, nah, nah!" :P

For example: I never play fighters... not even the DCC version appeals to me because they are still just: hack, kill, loot repeat. *Yawn*

Gnome Illusionist/Thief or Illusionist/Fighter... Kicks A$$ 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:46 am 
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Tortog wrote:
Gnome Illusionist/Thief or Illusionist/Fighter... Kicks A$$ 8)

True of anything with "gnome" in front of it, really. :mrgreen:

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Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:58 am 
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Creating a Gnome class should not be to hard with the DCC-RPG. Just blend the Wizard and the Thief classes.

I think crafting some Gnome spells would be taping a few of the Wizard's spells, and translating some of the D&D Illusionist spells into DCC-RPG spells. I would not allow patrons for the Gnome class. It seems that would be out of place for a gnome, in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:55 am 
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JediOre wrote:
Creating a Gnome class should not be to hard with the DCC-RPG. Just blend the Wizard and the Thief classes.

I think crafting some Gnome spells would be taping a few of the Wizard's spells, and translating some of the D&D Illusionist spells into DCC-RPG spells. I would not allow patrons for the Gnome class. It seems that would be out of place for a gnome, in my opinion.

I'm still toying with this idea. Unfortunately the game is dropping off my favored status list. Instead of patrons, I would make it DCCRPGish by causing high level illusion using gnomes to have difficulties with separate illusion from reality (aka insanity).


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 Post subject: Re: Class Conversions for DCC
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:58 pm 
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JediOre wrote:
Creating a Gnome class should not be to hard with the DCC-RPG. Just blend the Wizard and the Thief classes.

I think crafting some Gnome spells would be taping a few of the Wizard's spells, and translating some of the D&D Illusionist spells into DCC-RPG spells. I would not allow patrons for the Gnome class. It seems that would be out of place for a gnome, in my opinion.


I agree that it isn't terribly difficult to modify/create something. My point is that we shouldn't have to. Don't get me wrong, I love the return to an "open frame-work" style game. I do think that it's possible to have so much of a good thing, that it gets in it own way and becomes cumbersome for anything other than a "beer & pretzels game" as I heard it recently and correctly described.

I think folks are over-looking the fact that the same game system which provides us the sacrosanct "Appendix N" has a Players Handbook which on pages 13 & 14 has more offerings for race and classes than DCC RPG and players can be most any combo of race/class they want.

If the uber restrictive version of OD&D was so darn awesome... it wouldn't have had to change.


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