Types of magic in fantasy.

[AgeOfFable]

A lot of people have remarked that the division between magic-users, clerics, druids etc doesn't reflect the source literature.

From my reading, there seem to be three broad types of magic in fantasy, that are basically 'alignment'-based:

* inherently evil magic.
* morally neutral magic.
* inherently good magic.

In Conan only the first type exists. Sorcerers are inherently evil.

In the Dying Earth magic is of the second type. It can go horribly wrong, but if it does it's because the spell-caster pronounced a syllable wrong, not because magic is inherently corrupting and wicked. 'Morally neutral' doesn't mean 'committed to balance or an ideal of Neutrality' as in D&D. I think this is how it works in Harry Potter (there are evil wizards, but not because they use evil wizardry).

In Star Wars and Lord of the Rings only the first and third type exist. If you're a Jedi/wizard, you're either a major good guy or a major bad guy. You can change from one to the other (easily from good to evil, with difficulty from evil to good), but you apparently can't turn neutral. Sometimes good and evil magic do basically the same things (as in Star Wars), sometimes they will do different things, or evil magic will be an inversion or parody of good magic (as in Lord of the Rings).

So the division of cleric / magic-user / anti-cleric is similar to how it works in fantasy generally. However having all clerics work in basically the same way regardless of alignment makes a twofold distinction that is particular to D&D. Illusionists and druids don't seem to have an obvious 'place' in the system, clerics and anti-clerics being priests specifically doesn't really fit, and some of the characteristics you'd expect magic to have are missing (eg clerics can't turn to the dark side and become anti-clerics, magic-users' spells never go horribly wrong).

Thoughts?

[finarvyn]

I gave some thoughts on this in the other thread:
http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 67&t=15676

Basically, I see a couple of types of magic:
1. Simple magic that doesn't hurt anything, and doesn't hurt you. Call 'em cantrips or whatever, these are pretty easy to do and magic folk do them often. Sometimes even the PCs.
2. Nasty magic that can hurt people, but hurts (corrupts) you back. This is more ritualistic in nature, often requing A Price and this is what the bad guy of the adventure is trying to accomplish.

I suppose you could throw in healing and/or divine magic as other types, but I think they could still fall under the two listed above.

[bholmes4]

Great post and I agree.

In the Dying Earth magic is of the second type. It can go horribly wrong, but if it does it's because the spell-caster pronounced a syllable wrong, not because magic is inherently corrupting and wicked. 'Morally neutral' doesn't mean 'committed to balance or an ideal of Neutrality' as in D&D. I think this is how it works in Harry Potter (there are evil wizards, but not because they use evil wizardry).

Hmm I suppose this is why I haven't been a big fan of the corruption rules, though I love misfire effects. Corruption to me should come from consorting with dark immortal beings, a lifestyle choice and one often exclusive to wizards as only they (typically) have the means to contact them. Magic in itself however does not need to be corrupting. The results should come from Patron spells, items, bargains made, and so on.

Finarvyn does have me considering the place of destructive magic though and paying The Price. I suppose I am still trying to figure out my thoughts on this issue.

So the division of cleric / magic-user / anti-cleric is similar to how it works in fantasy generally. However having all clerics work in basically the same way regardless of alignment makes a twofold distinction that is particular to D&D. Illusionists and druids don't seem to have an obvious 'place' in the system, clerics and anti-clerics being priests specifically doesn't really fit, and some of the characteristics you'd expect magic to have are missing (eg clerics can't turn to the dark side and become anti-clerics, magic-users' spells never go horribly wrong).

Love the idea of clerics being able to choose the "dark side" and become anti-clerics. Anti-clerics (who consort with dark immortals, afterall its an inherent part of the job) should suffer corruption from casting their spells. This makes so much more sense to me. This is where they draw their from, its the price they pay. Give them some powerful wizard-like spells to make them more "attractive" to the unwise and you have some great stories and cool enemies.

As for the "committed to balance" idea, I've never been a fan.

[GnomeBoy]

...Corruption to me should come from consorting with dark immortal beings, a lifestyle choice and one often exclusive to wizards as only they (typically) have the means to contact them.

I think that's exactly the intention of the game: Wizards are those who draw their power from such beings. A given wizard might use his magic for "good" -- but he's making a deal with something that may be beyond the concept of good, or actively against the concept of good. You want the power? You have to make that deal.

Of course, other campaigns can edit/houserule their way around that. But I think that's where the game is coming from...

[bholmes4]

I think that's exactly the intention of the game: Wizards are those who draw their power from such beings. A given wizard might use his magic for "good" -- but he's making a deal with something that may be beyond the concept of good, or actively against the concept of good. You want the power? You have to make that deal.

Of course, other campaigns can edit/houserule their way around that. But I think that's where the game is coming from...

I suppose that is my issue, I see wizards as having stolen the secret of magic, using it despite the gods wishes (versus clerics who use it through the gods). As such they often turn to other immortal beings, often whom do not have the best of intentions, to mentor them or provide them aid. But they can also walk the road alone, struggling in their attempts to master magic but so long as they are careful and do not dabble in the darker arts (spell specific), they are not subject to corruption.

Perhaps a simple fix is to simply assign patron-less wizards a -2 to cast and ignore corruption. For wizards with patrons, I just create patron-specific taint tables (so that lawful patrons do not taint in the same way as chaos, another issue) and I am set. This allows for the Ningaubles and Sheelbas, and I can view Gandalf-types as being patron-less (or having patron taints that are hardly significant, ie. hair turns white, desire only to be in the company of those shorter than yourself, require a walking staff, vs. tentacles, delusions, and legs crippling, etc.).

[GnomeBoy]

I like your take on it.

I think making a completely generic game is a hard thing to do, and a hard thing to sell. So you've got to give a game some kind of "vibe".

Meanwhile, I think DCC with it's lighter design than many other games, can easily support alternate rules to make your campaign "yours". That's part of its beauty.

[AgeOfFable]

I like your take on it.

Thanks!

I think making a completely generic game is a hard thing to do, and a hard thing to sell. So you've got to give a game some kind of "vibe".

Meanwhile, I think DCC with it's lighter design than many other games, can easily support alternate rules to make your campaign "yours". That's part of its beauty.

The best solution might be a GURPS-like one, where the DM picks how magic works in their campaign, rather than having the expectation that classes representing all types will be in all campaigns.

[jamescbennett]

In Conan only the first type exists. Sorcerers are inherently evil.

In the Conan story Hour of the Dragon, Zeiata the witch and Hadrathus the preist of Asura don't seem to be evil; the author suggests that both the witch and the cult of Asura are victims of prejudice and rumor. As PCs in a game, Zeiata would most likely be a druid and Hadrathus, a cleric.

[Coffeedragon]

Magic and its use in the world is a major flavour factor in any fantasy campaign.

I have always seen magic as inherently neutral. It's a tool, like a sword or a length of rope.
I agree with the view that it should be the wizards choice to deal with dark powers in exchange for power and the risk of corruption.
And I agree that magic from dark powers should come with a Price.
Of course, those who use magic are succeptable to temptation and the metaphysical world is full of dark powers eager to temp a young mage

I plan to have the mages in my adventures receiving offers 'too good to refuse' on a regular basis. Yes they will likely be well on the road to corruption within a level or two, but it will have been their choice.
I think it's important to be able to play a class and know that each 1 you roll isn't going to automatically bump you down the ladder of Corruption.

As a side note, I also feel that magic from any powerful being should leave a taint of its origin on the wielder, whether it's an angel or a devil. Magic from dark and twisted places leaves you dark and twisty, while magic from light and sparkly places should leave a similar glittery 'taint'.

I gave some thoughts on this in the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15676

Excellent post Finarvyn. I think you're onto a good thing.

[bholmes4]

I have always seen magic as inherently neutral. It's a tool, like a sword or a length of rope.
I agree with the view that it should be the wizards choice to deal with dark powers in exchange for power and the risk of corruption.
And I agree that magic from dark powers should come with a Price.
Of course, those who use magic are succeptable to temptation and the metaphysical world is full of dark powers eager to temp a young mage

I plan to have the mages in my adventures receiving offers 'too good to refuse' on a regular basis. Yes they will likely be well on the road to corruption within a level or two, but it will have been their choice. I think it's important to be able to play a class and know that each 1 you roll isn't going to automatically bump you down the ladder of Corruption.

As a side note, I also feel that magic from any powerful being should leave a taint of its origin on the wielder, whether it's an angel or a devil. Magic from dark and twisted places leaves you dark and twisty, while magic from light and sparkly places should leave a similar glittery 'taint'.

Well said and I agree fully. The part I underlined is what has bothers me most about the whole Corruption implementation in this game. I get where they are coming from but I don't like it from a game play standpoint.

I am still waiting to see what the final product looks like (certainly it seems like it is going to be improved before then) but I am working on some house rules just in case.

[Sizzaxe]

I tend to generally agree with some caveats. Magic in most S&S / Weird Fiction is dangerous. while it's true minor magics are often accomplished with simple ease; real magic, powerful magic, is often dangerous. There are numerous ways to accomplish this, and I think the taint/corruption rules are a fairly elegant way of handling it. Even if you consider magic neutral it should still be very dangerous to handle and manipulate. It's not that magic itself is presented as evil in the game, though one might jump to that conclusion. Magic is so dangerous and powerful that the entities that can manipulate it with efficiency are extraplanar ie demons, devils, foul beings from beyond and the like.

In this case one might ask the question, where are the good extra planar guys to bargain with? That's actually a good question. But if we introduce "angels" (for lack of a better word) that only bless us with glitteryness then it takes some of the danger out of dealing with magic. You would have to make your angels more like true angels of occult tradition. These angels are powerful lords of the higher realms that when they do deign to mettle with mortals they also often exact a price. The price may be related to the possibility of magic being too powerful to contain or of changing the nature of the spellcaster in ways that reflect the "good" higher realms but are as equally troublesome as corruption. Like your eyes now shine with continual light, your skins burns everything you touch, or turns it to glass, your body becomes transparent. Etc. Etc.

Whatever the case we don't want to lose the dangerous element of magic even if you decide that you need something else besides corruption.

[GnomeBoy]

What if prestidigitation was a freebie for Wizards?

There's your simple magic that carries no cost. For everything else, there's Corruption.

[jmucchiello]

This is a slogan for insurance or something, right?

For everything else, there's Corruption.

[GnomeBoy]

This is a slogan for insurance or something, right?

For everything else, there's Corruption.

I thought it was a credit card...

[jmucchiello]

Right!

[dunbruha]

The price may be related to the possibility of magic being too powerful to contain or of changing the nature of the spellcaster in ways that reflect the "good" higher realms but are as equally troublesome as corruption. Like your eyes now shine with continual light, your skins burns everything you touch, or turns it to glass, your body becomes transparent. Etc. Etc.

Whatever the case we don't want to lose the dangerous element of magic even if you decide that you need something else besides corruption.

Yes, I think magic should be dangerous, but not necessarily corrupting. Maybe your angel patron confers on you some aspect of its behavior: not allowing lies to be told, always must donate to the poor, etc. (kind of like forcing some aspects of the paladin's code onto the wizard).

[jmucchiello]

I'd still prefer that the "cleric" was the white-magic side and deities were the Nice Patrons.

[dunbruha]

I'd still prefer that the "cleric" was the white-magic side and deities were the Nice Patrons.

I'd go for that if the "cleric" was a wizard with a nice patron (and dump the Cleric class altogether).

[AgeOfFable]

From my reading, good magic would have a code of conduct (similar to the paladin), neutral magic would have a chance of 'misfiring', and evil magic would corrupt.

[joela]

How about an alternative to corruption where the environment's severely affected, i.e., a spell-fumble on steroids. Example: You temporarily tear the binding threads of reality. For the number of turns equal to the spell level casts, you and everyone within 100' of the miscast must make two rolls for every action and pick the second roll. If you fumble again on any spell within the area, it becomes permanent.

[dunbruha]

Here is my idea of the types of magic. The illustration is from today's episode of Prince Valiant. Note the equally powerful "good" magic coming from the group on the right (and btw, they are not "clerics"!).

magic battle 4.jpg (226.36 KiB) Viewed 25908 times

[abk108]

The price may be related to the possibility of magic being too powerful to contain or of changing the nature of the spellcaster in ways that reflect the "good" higher realms but are as equally troublesome as corruption. Like your eyes now shine with continual light, your skins burns everything you touch, or turns it to glass, your body becomes transparent. Etc. Etc.

Whatever the case we don't want to lose the dangerous element of magic even if you decide that you need something else besides corruption.

Yes, I think magic should be dangerous, but not necessarily corrupting. Maybe your angel patron confers on you some aspect of its behavior: not allowing lies to be told, always must donate to the poor, etc. (kind of like forcing some aspects of the paladin's code onto the wizard).

I wrote a Lawful patron (you can find it in another thread) , it's not difficult to write "good" stuff that creates problems : as an example, here you go the taints of a particular patron which go close to what you were saying

Patron Taints for Haeviel the Seraphim
(roll 1d6 very time a taint is aquired)

1. The wizard takes on an angelic appearance: his eyes become light blue, his hair becomes longer, beautifully curly and blonde. The second time this taint is aquired, everytime the wizard casts a spell he radiates a strong white light and his head is circled by a golden halo. If this result is rolled again, the skin of the wizard becomes fair and smooth as that of a maiden, and he raidiates a constant dim light, that is enough to be seen in the dark; the light is equivalent to that of a candle.

2. The wizard is so pure that he is extremely susceptible to evil : any chaotic creature gains +1 to attack and damage when attacking the character. If this result is rolled a second time, the wizard is almost incapable of any evil deed: before taking an aggressive action against a non-Chaotic creature he has to pass a DC 15 Will Save, otherwise he can't act. If this result is rolled a third time, the wizard is so concerned about morality that witnessing in any way to an act of aggression (seeing someone whipping a pony, hearing someone swearing) makes him flinch: unless he passes a DC 15 Will Save, he is stunned for 1 round (can't use actions but can move). After passing the Will Save, the wizard doesn't have to roll again for aggressive actions of that person for the next 24 hours.

3. The wizard's appetite become more and more difficult to satisfy: at first, he can't eat meat and he can't drink anything but water or white wine. If this result is rolled a second time, he can't eat fish nor products that came from the exploitation of animals (like milk, eggs and honey), and he can't drink anything except water. If this result is rolled a third time, the wizard can't eat anything but fresh fruits and can't drink anything but holy water. If he should ingest any "forbidden" food, he gets sick and suffers -1 to Spellchecks for the rest of the day.

4. The wizard feels repulsion against any material wealth: at first he can't stand the prolonged contact with gold or platinum (see Elves' "iron vulnerability"). If this result is rolled again, this "allergy" extends to silver and electrum. If this result is rolled a third time, this "allergy" extends to gems and precious stones.

5. The wizard is imbued with mystical holy energy, crossing the bounds between clerical and arcane magic. Everytime he casts a spell successfully, he suffers a cumulative -1 to successive spellchecks. This penalty disappears after one night of sleep. If this result is rolled again, the wizard gains the ability to Lay-on-hands like a 1st level cleric (spellcheck based on PER not INT), but only on Lawful creatures. If this result is rolled again, the Lay-on-hands ability works on any non-Chaotic creature.

6. The wizard ages differently, looking younger than he really is. If older than 30 he gets 1 year younger every day, until he reaches 20 years of age: after that he ages 2 times slower than normal (this doesn't affect the natural length of the wizard's life) . If this result is rolled again, he ages 4 times slower than normal (this doesn't affect the natural length of the wizard's life). If this result is rolled again, the wizard stops aging at all, and he will live twice as long as a normal member of his race.

[dunbruha]

Patron Taints for Haeviel the Seraphim
(roll 1d6 very time a taint is aquired)

1. The wizard takes on an angelic appearance: his eyes become light blue, his hair becomes longer, beautifully curly and blonde. The second time this taint is aquired, everytime the wizard casts a spell he radiates a strong white light and his head is circled by a golden halo. If this result is rolled again, the skin of the wizard becomes fair and smooth as that of a maiden, and he raidiates a constant dim light, that is enough to be seen in the dark; the light is equivalent to that of a candle.

2. The wizard is so pure that he is extremely susceptible to evil : any chaotic creature gains +1 to attack and damage when attacking the character. If this result is rolled a second time, the wizard is almost incapable of any evil deed: before taking an aggressive action against a non-Chaotic creature he has to pass a DC 15 Will Save, otherwise he can't act. If this result is rolled a third time, the wizard is so concerned about morality that witnessing in any way to an act of aggression (seeing someone whipping a pony, hearing someone swearing) makes him flinch: unless he passes a DC 15 Will Save, he is stunned for 1 round (can't use actions but can move). After passing the Will Save, the wizard doesn't have to roll again for aggressive actions of that person for the next 24 hours.

3. The wizard's appetite become more and more difficult to satisfy: at first, he can't eat meat and he can't drink anything but water or white wine. If this result is rolled a second time, he can't eat fish nor products that came from the exploitation of animals (like milk, eggs and honey), and he can't drink anything except water. If this result is rolled a third time, the wizard can't eat anything but fresh fruits and can't drink anything but holy water. If he should ingest any "forbidden" food, he gets sick and suffers -1 to Spellchecks for the rest of the day.

4. The wizard feels repulsion against any material wealth: at first he can't stand the prolonged contact with gold or platinum (see Elves' "iron vulnerability"). If this result is rolled again, this "allergy" extends to silver and electrum. If this result is rolled a third time, this "allergy" extends to gems and precious stones.

5. The wizard is imbued with mystical holy energy, crossing the bounds between clerical and arcane magic. Everytime he casts a spell successfully, he suffers a cumulative -1 to successive spellchecks. This penalty disappears after one night of sleep. If this result is rolled again, the wizard gains the ability to Lay-on-hands like a 1st level cleric (spellcheck based on PER not INT), but only on Lawful creatures. If this result is rolled again, the Lay-on-hands ability works on any non-Chaotic creature.

6. The wizard ages differently, looking younger than he really is. If older than 30 he gets 1 year younger every day, until he reaches 20 years of age: after that he ages 2 times slower than normal (this doesn't affect the natural length of the wizard's life) . If this result is rolled again, he ages 4 times slower than normal (this doesn't affect the natural length of the wizard's life). If this result is rolled again, the wizard stops aging at all, and he will live twice as long as a normal member of his race.

This is good stuff.

[abk108]

This is good stuff.

Thanks, i really appreciate. You can find more on this thread http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 67&t=15901

[AgeOfFable]

In the Conan story Hour of the Dragon, Zeiata the witch and Hadrathus the preist of Asura don't seem to be evil; the author suggests that both the witch and the cult of Asura are victims of prejudice and rumor. As PCs in a game, Zeiata would most likely be a druid and Hadrathus, a cleric.

I wonder if fantasy written before D&D, and by non-gamers, tends to have less consistent 'rules of magic'?