Level Cap

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lordmalachdrim
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Level Cap

Post by lordmalachdrim » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:33 pm

Ok so the beta has level 5, I've seen on here talks of level 10 what is the level cap in the core book because 10 seems a bit low to me. And please don't say its fine because most characters will never reach that high due to character death. I've got a hackmaster campaign going with 70 deaths and characters in the 13th level range.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by Harley Stroh » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:52 pm

In response to the overwhelming cries of "more levels!" we're planning on 10 levels for the core book, and considering additional "end game" support in the eventual DCC annual. But we're happy to hear your thoughts on what the level cap should be.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by geordie racer » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:49 pm

I can't imagine party-based adventuring past Level 10 given the power of wizards. Yes they might be corrupted to hell but warriors are having to totally rely on magic items to attempt to keep up with them on the battlefield. Thieves have long ceased to be the best class for thievery.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by finarvyn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:47 am

My own personal experience is that in 35 years of being a DM I've hardly ever used rules for levels over 8-10 or so. I find that beyond a certain point the game loses interest for me because the players have too many hit points and too many things they can do.

The only real challenges I can offer seem to be "bigger and badder" monsters and I have this bias that the dragon should be one of the top critters in the game. Everyone should fear dragons, and when you get to be the same level they are I feel that the game loses interest to me.

I base my level tiers on the 1974 OD&D rules, where 4th level was a "hero" and 8th was a "super hero" and so I tend to keep things scaled so that characters retire shortly after 8th. On the other hand, I like to have rules up to 12th for my NPC villians so that the good guys have evil wizards to battle.

Just how I do it.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by lordmalachdrim » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:53 am

So 10 is the cap? too bad. And I don't know what you mean by being able to take dragons at level 8. Right now my group can take a dragon if it's young or if they surprise it but it still hurts like hell. And they avoid any of the older guys like the plague still, but then I've found most DM/GMs out there fudge the dice instead of letting them fall where they may. Characters die...often ignoble deaths often brought on by stupidity.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by lordmalachdrim » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:54 am

Really not just threads but posts as well have to be approved by the mods around here? Your kidding...no, I guess your not.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by birthright » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:05 am

Personally, I think that 10 levels is a feature of DCC RPG, something that sets this game apart from so many of the others. 10 levels is so old-school too. Please KEEP 10 levels for the core book!

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Re: Level Cap

Post by Arawn76 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:12 am

birthright wrote:Personally, I think that 10 levels is a feature of DCC RPG, something that sets this game apart from so many of the others. 10 levels is so old-school too. Please KEEP 10 levels for the core book!
I'm fine for just 10 levels personally but would still by higher level support in a supplement.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by smathis » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:49 am

I think 10 levels is good. No problem with that. I agree with Joseph that play beyond level 10 is just a different beast entirely. Probably more focused on a larger scale than just increasing personal capabilities. For me, 8-10 levels is perfect.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by goodmangames » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:37 am

lordmalachdrim wrote:Really not just threads but posts as well have to be approved by the mods around here? Your kidding...no, I guess your not.
The first three posts by a new user have to be approved. After that you're good to go. It's an anti-spam measure...if you could see the approval logs you would be amazed by how much spam is posted to these boards every day, then caught by the approval process! We've tried many different approaches and this one seems the best way to minimize the spam while also allow minimize inconvenience. Just post three times on your first day, make it look like anything but weird Russian credit card spam, and after those three posts are approved you'll never need to be approved again. :)
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Re: Level Cap

Post by ogbendog » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:04 am

I remember in AD&D, you could build a keep or start a thieves guild or etc at higher levels. Maybe they can do a book for 10+ which focuses on that aspect.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by finarvyn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:08 am

lordmalachdrim wrote:Really not just threads but posts as well have to be approved by the mods around here? Your kidding...no, I guess your not.
Not sure what you're unhappy about. You need approval for the first couple of posts and/or threads, then you're free to post without any approval at all. Just trying to keep the SPAM to a minimum.

For example, I "killed" 16 SPAM threads yesterday and another 22 today. You probably didn't see any of them because they don't appear until a moderator approves them or destroys them.

Makes the whole place a lot friendlier and fun to read, if you ask me.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by jmucchiello » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:36 am

geordie racer wrote:I can't imagine party-based adventuring past Level 10 given the power of wizards. Yes they might be corrupted to hell but warriors are having to totally rely on magic items to attempt to keep up with them on the battlefield. Thieves have long ceased to be the best class for thievery.
Are you kidding, the 10th level fighter will be rolling d14s on his class die. If a MDoA of 7 can permanently blind an opponent, what does a 14 do!???! Automatic beheading and dismembering all at once??

Wizards of 10th level will be gelatinous and tentacles masses of faceless flesh with powerful spells. But the warrior will be able dropkick a titan on a MDoA of result of 11.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by geordie racer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:04 am

jmucchiello wrote: But the warrior will be able dropkick a titan on a MDoA of result of 11.
By the time he gets near him, the wizard may had lauched magic missiles via a crystal ball from the comfort of the tavern, teleported over while invisible, and taken the Titan out. Well if he rolled adequately - hello Spellburn! :wink:

Once the wizard is a planeshifting powerhouse, how can a warrior keep up ?

This is why I started the spell threads, after playing a 5th Level wizard - they kick ass with 1st Level spells, nevermind anything more powerful.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by jmucchiello » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:19 pm

The Wizard is not going to cast crazy spells from a tavern to take out the titan and risk more corruption and spell burn. By 10th level he probably only casts spells once a year at most relying on the millions of gold pieces he's liberated from the local country side to live on. If the titan needs killing, he'll sell the map to the 10th level warrior for a song and only ask for a 10% cut. Are you going to cross the crazy tentacled guy who asks you (wait, does that guy have a mouth?) so nicely to beat up a titan?

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Re: Level Cap

Post by geordie racer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:29 pm

jmucchiello wrote:The Wizard is not going to cast crazy spells from a tavern to take out the titan and risk more corruption and spell burn. By 10th level he probably only casts spells once a year at most relying on the millions of gold pieces he's liberated from the local country side to live on. If the titan needs killing, he'll sell the map to the 10th level warrior for a song and only ask for a 10% cut. Are you going to cross the crazy tentacled guy who asks you (wait, does that guy have a mouth?) so nicely to beat up a titan?
By 10th level he's hanging out on another plane, charms anyone he likes (no matter if he's a drooling squidheed) to see to his every desire, and plays baccarat with his Patron on Tuesday afternoons. So that Titan is just Somebody Else's Problem.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by jmucchiello » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:30 pm

So who cares how powerful he is?

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Re: Level Cap

Post by QuentinTheTroll » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:34 pm

10th Level = win the game, establish a Hold and "retire" to NPC status.

It has always been that way for me, and will continue to be that, no matter what supplements to it are provided.

Started playing in '83. Never had any fun (as judge or player) above 10. Way more fun to see my "old" characters establishing their reigns or research without me...especially when my new PC's ran afoul of their guidance or rule...

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Re: Level Cap

Post by geordie racer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:46 pm

jmucchiello wrote:So who cares how powerful he is?
What I'm trying to say is that he is so beyond the non-caster classes in terms of power and options that he can crack the dungeon single-handed (unless it's designed as wizard-proof) and the stabby-shooty-stunty warrior is a poor sidekick. I'm hoping that DCC will make being a high level wizard a lot more precarious than the D&D invisible flying rocket launcher.

But ultimately I think I'd retire him at 10th Level, make him an NPC/Patron even, as Quentin suggests.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by jmucchiello » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:56 pm

Yes, and the warrior at level 10 can cause an earthquake by striking the ground with his hammer and rolling a 14 on his class die. I mean, what else is there based on what a measly 7 can do in combat?

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Re: Level Cap

Post by geordie racer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:18 pm

jmucchiello wrote:Yes, and the warrior at level 10 can cause an earthquake by striking the ground with his hammer and rolling a 14 on his class die. I mean, what else is there based on what a measly 7 can do in combat?
He's a one-trick pony 'cept his trick gets better, unless we have crazee anime trick such as a swordswipe can cause a rift in time-space so a 10th Level+ warrior can planeshift to duke it out with Crom.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by finarvyn » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:54 pm

lordmalachdrim wrote:So 10 is the cap? too bad.
Remember that the "official" cap of the core rulebook doesn't have to be the upper limit for your home campaign. You can certainly extrapolate the tables higher and higher, and it's possible that either Goodman Games or some 3rd party company will put together a "higher and higher" sourcebook for DCC. If folks demand it, someone will write it!

The main thing at this point is that we (Joesph and Harley included) don't even quite know what levels 6-10 will look like. The playtest rules only went to level 5 and no higher levels were part of the original manifesto, so some heavy duty design will have to happen before we can even think beyond level 10.
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Re: Level Cap

Post by geordie racer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:23 pm

So which Appendix N character do you think is 10th Level ?
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Re: Level Cap

Post by Tortog » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:42 am

Maybe this is the right spot for this question... because answering it may help with the level cap issue: and because I know I'm going to get asked. [if no, then sorry. please move to where it should be :) ]

"Can characters choose multiple classes?" Assuming that they were fortunate enough to roll stats that would even make it worth while. If "yes" then Elves and Dwarves could spend centuries becoming 10lvl in race, then 10 x INT bonus levels for Elves [5x INT bonus for Dwarves] in whatever classes catch their interest... Let Humans & Halflings multi-class in as many levels of classes as they can fit into their short lives... :D

After all... If the DM is doing their job, then the odds of even getting to 5th lvl are slim :P

On a practical note: couldn't the numbers on the MDoA charts be modified? Results ranges doubled to:
3-4, 5-6, etc., to 13-14 for all of the tables that are already written; then write out some 16+ events for each chart.

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Re: Level Cap

Post by Tortog » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:01 am

geordie racer wrote:So which Appendix N character do you think is 10th Level ?
Balor/Balrog scares off a Goblin army...

Gandalf fights Balor/Balrog all by himself... after falling to the bottom of the world... The victory costs Gandalf his life though.

{Ea} boots Gandalf out of heaven so he can finish what he started [dis-satisfied patron?]

Hard to tell what level he is: did he call on the power of his patron to slay the demon? Or was Gandalf able to do it himself and the wounds were too much? If the game mechanic stops at 5 lvls, then gandalf is a 5th lvl wizard, but if there are 10 levels to each class then he is a 10th. In D&D 3.x he'd have to be at least 15th lvl to solo that kind of fight.

But only fighters and Dwarves are able to do MDoA? :lol:

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