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Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhedrons
http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=15068
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Author:  GnomeBoy [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

sirhotalot wrote:
...These die produce a +1 on average compared to what the actual die would get (whereas a D30 might produce an average 14 a d20+d10 produces an average of 15)...

I'm glad this is not a face-to-face conversation, or I'd have to point out that this is all wrong. A d30 averages a 15.5 result. A d20+d10 averages a 16. And none of the 'suggestions' work.

~whew~ Glad it's just a forum!

Author:  sirhotalot [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

GnomeBoy wrote:
sirhotalot wrote:
...These die produce a +1 on average compared to what the actual die would get (whereas a D30 might produce an average 14 a d20+d10 produces an average of 15)...

I'm glad this is not a face-to-face conversation, or I'd have to point out that this is all wrong. A d30 averages a 15.5 result. A d20+d10 averages a 16. And none of the 'suggestions' work.

~whew~ Glad it's just a forum!

Yea I checked weeks ago and didn't bother to recheck when posting.

Author:  finarvyn [ Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

Don't stress over it. Lots of folks get probabilites messed up. Heck, I've posted some stuff in a hurry myself, then later did the "head-slap" thing and wondered what I was thinking when I posted it.

In general, any time you add dice together you get an uneven probability curve.

Author:  tithian [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

Here is my solution to the dice issue.

Use a permanent marker to 'connect the dots' on standard issue casino D6 dice. You can create 3 types of dice:

D3: for standard D3 rolls

D0-2: for D24, D26, and D28

D0-1: for D14, D16 and D18. You can also use the D0-1 as a modifier die with the 1 indicating +1 or -1 as required for D5, D7 or D9.

See the attached image.
Image
upload gif

Author:  abk108 [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

tithian wrote:
Here is my solution to the dice issue.

Use a permanent marker to 'connect the dots' on standard issue casino D6 dice. You can create 3 types of dice:

D3: for standard D3 rolls

D0-2: for D24, D26, and D28

D0-1: for D14, D16 and D18. You can also use the D0-1 as a modifier die with the 1 indicating +1 or -1 as required for D5, D7 or D9.

See the attached image.
Image
upload gif



This was a nice idea for getting a d3... but the suggestions at the bottom are absolutely wrong.
How can you think of rolling a d24 by rollin a d0-2 ALONGSIDE a d4? :shock:
That would only create 01, 02, 03, 04 , 11, 12, 13, 14, 21, 22, 23, 24.
The correct use for a D0-2 (or any other d0-X) is as a control die.
For a d24 you can roll
(12 * d0-1) +d12
or
(8 * d0-2) +d8

This works exactly as the D%, which is
(10* d0-9) + d0-9

Author:  tithian [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

Doh! I'm an idiot.

And thank you for correcting me! Your method is great!

G

Author:  abk108 [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

tithian wrote:
Doh! I'm an idiot.

And thank you for correcting me! Your method is great!

G


Don't worry This is what the forums are for...!
Otherwise we would all try our (often dumb) houserules in our games, messing everything up! :mrgreen:

Author:  jmucchiello [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

abk108 wrote:
How can you think of rolling a d24 by rollin a d0-2 ALONGSIDE a d4? :shock:

He obviously meant a d12 renumbered: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2 rolled along with a d20 that was dual numbered: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5/1, 6/2, 7/3, 8/4, 9/1, 10/2, 11/3, 12/4, 13/1, 14/2, 15/3, 16/4, 17/1, 18/2, 19/3, 20/4. (That was annoying to type. :))

Or he wanted to roll it with a d10 to make a d30.


What I want to know is why the d3 uses angled lines over the 5-pip face but backward E over the 6-pip face. Would backward E look more consistent on both dice? Likewise draw the 1 diagonally on the 1-pip face so it looks the same as the 1 drawn on the 3-pip faces. (And is consistent with the 0-1 die.)

Author:  abk108 [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

..or if you really don't want a d6 numbered 123123
(i just bought one for like 1€..) you can just fill with white paint the extra dots to make the 6 a 3, the 4 a 1, and the 5 a 2... It doesn't look extra-cool but you can clearly see the result you got.

Author:  Eldric IV [ Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

Switch the 2 and 5 on the D0-1. I do not like those naked pips.

Author:  fjw70 [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

I have considered using a d4, d6, and d8 to simulate the d3, d5, and d7, and if you get the high number (I.e. 4, 6, or 8) then just use the average result instead of re-rolling. It would skew the result slightly to the average but wouldn't change the average.

Author:  abk108 [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

fjw70 wrote:
I have considered using a d4, d6, and d8 to simulate the d3, d5, and d7, and if you get the high number (I.e. 4, 6, or 8) then just use the average result instead of re-rolling. It would skew the result slightly to the average but wouldn't change the average.


why would you do that? :|
It's like having a d5 numbered 1,2,3,3,4,5.... It messes things up!

Author:  fjw70 [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

abk108 wrote:
fjw70 wrote:
I have considered using a d4, d6, and d8 to simulate the d3, d5, and d7, and if you get the high number (I.e. 4, 6, or 8) then just use the average result instead of re-rolling. It would skew the result slightly to the average but wouldn't change the average.


why would you do that? :|
It's like having a d5 numbered 1,2,3,3,4,5.... It messes things up!


Just an easy way to simulate the funky dice without rerolls. It doesn't change the average and skews to the average a little bit.

Author:  jmucchiello [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

fjw70 wrote:
abk108 wrote:
fjw70 wrote:
I have considered using a d4, d6, and d8 to simulate the d3, d5, and d7, and if you get the high number (I.e. 4, 6, or 8) then just use the average result instead of re-rolling. It would skew the result slightly to the average but wouldn't change the average.


why would you do that? :|
It's like having a d5 numbered 1,2,3,3,4,5.... It messes things up!


Just an easy way to simulate the funky dice without rerolls. It doesn't change the average and skews to the average a little bit.

It skews it by 25%, 16.6%, and 12.5%. That's a lot!

Author:  fjw70 [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

jmucchiello wrote:
It skews it by 25%, 16.6%, and 12.5%. That's a lot!


Just throwing out an idea.

Author:  abk108 [ Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

fjw70 wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
It skews it by 25%, 16.6%, and 12.5%. That's a lot!


Just throwing out an idea.


Don't worry we weren't criticizing the idea :wink: we were pointing out that it's not really a "slight" change... :D

Author:  fjw70 [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

abk108 wrote:
fjw70 wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
It skews it by 25%, 16.6%, and 12.5%. That's a lot!


Just throwing out an idea.


Don't worry we weren't criticizing the idea :wink: we were pointing out that it's not really a "slight" change... :D


You guys just hate me. :)

Seriously, the d3 and d5 are easy enough to simulate with d6s and d10, but using the d8 to simulate a d7 (with an 8 = 4) wouldn't be that big of a deal. Instead of 14% prob for each number you would have 12.5% for most and 25% for a 4. For a MDoA to succeed the prod would change from 71% to 75%. But I guess we have each had our say so I won't keep beating a dead horse.

Author:  abk108 [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

fjw70 wrote:
But I guess we have each had our say so I won't keep beating a dead horse.


*Dead horse's widow sighs with relief* :lol:

Author:  MutieMoe [ Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

I just wanted to say that suggestions in this thread will come really handy when playing with the Beta rules, I especially like the simple conversion of normal casino d6 to d2 and d3.

Author:  finarvyn [ Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

fjw70 wrote:
using the d8 to simulate a d7 (with an 8 = 4) wouldn't be that big of a deal

1. You're right that it probably wouldn't be a big deal.
2. Why mess with the probabilities at all? Just roll the d8 and re-roll all 8's that come up.

Author:  fjw70 [ Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

finarvyn wrote:
fjw70 wrote:
using the d8 to simulate a d7 (with an 8 = 4) wouldn't be that big of a deal

1. You're right that it probably wouldn't be a big deal.
2. Why mess with the probabilities at all? Just roll the d8 and re-roll all 8's that come up.


I imagine rerolls could be annoying.

Author:  abk108 [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

i don't see them happening too often, since they
1) don't have huge chances (1/6 to say with d5)
2) the dice you're simulating are not widely used: you might have to roll a d5 not more than 3-4 times a session, and that's if the warrior is level 3 and uses it for MDoA

I mean, i hated to roll a d14 or d16 with a d20 rerolling 1/3 or 1/4 of the times! (wasting 19s and 20s!!) but with d7 i wouldnt mind rolling a d8.

Author:  jmucchiello [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

fjw70 wrote:
finarvyn wrote:
fjw70 wrote:
using the d8 to simulate a d7 (with an 8 = 4) wouldn't be that big of a deal

1. You're right that it probably wouldn't be a big deal.
2. Why mess with the probabilities at all? Just roll the d8 and re-roll all 8's that come up.


I imagine rerolls could be annoying.

How about trying it first and then you would know for sure if it is annoying or not.

Author:  fjw70 [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

jmucchiello wrote:
How about trying it first and then you would know for sure if it is annoying or not.


Well I have done rerolling before. In AD&D I would roll a d8 instead of 2d4 (I have always disliked the standard d4) and rerolled ones (yes I know the distribution is totally different but his was when I was young and didn't understand these things yet). The rerolling was annoying but less annoying than d4s. :)

Author:  fjw70 [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dice: generating "Zocchi results" using "normal" polyhed

abk108 wrote:
i don't see them happening too often, since they
1) don't have huge chances (1/6 to say with d5)
2) the dice you're simulating are not widely used: you might have to roll a d5 not more than 3-4 times a session, and that's if the warrior is level 3 and uses it for MDoA

I mean, i hated to roll a d14 or d16 with a d20 rerolling 1/3 or 1/4 of the times! (wasting 19s and 20s!!) but with d7 i wouldnt mind rolling a d8.


My 3rd level warriors and dwarves are going to be rolling a d5 more than 3-4 time a session.

I will probably just get the actual dice. I picked up a d30 this weekend from a local game store.

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