Dice...

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Re: Dice...

Post by Sizzaxe » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:19 pm

As if it needed said again: +12 on offering the complete set for DCC gamers via the Goodman Game site--maybe even in some kewl DCC only color scheme; but I might suggest including the whole range (regular polys too) so that you can get a matching set--see below.

My two sets from Game Station.net (Zocchi + 7s and 30s) ran me about $34 bucks a piece. But Game Science is shipping complete sets just like I mentioned of 12 dice to retailers this week. The set costs $38.

And at my FLGS a cheap set of dice is $6 for six dice. A decent set runs $8 and a nice set runs $12. $38 for 12 dice is pretty good considering we're just building the market for these dice. They'll cheapen up (or down as the case may be) soon.

So ... Buy more funky dice!!!

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Re: Dice...

Post by smathis » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:25 pm

Sizzaxe wrote:As if it needed said again: +12 on offering the complete set for DCC gamers via the Goodman Game site--maybe even in some kewl DCC only color scheme; but I might suggest including the whole range (regular polys too) so that you can get a matching set--see below.

My two sets from Game Station.net (Zocchi + 7s and 30s) ran me about $34 bucks a piece. But Game Science is shipping complete sets just like I mentioned of 12 dice to retailers this week. The set costs $38.

And at my FLGS a cheap set of dice is $6 for six dice. A decent set runs $8 and a nice set runs $12. $38 for 12 dice is pretty good considering we're just building the market for these dice. They'll cheapen up (or down as the case may be) soon.

So ... Buy more funky dice!!!
I'd be surprised if Goodman Games' price for the dice was $38. Besides, we don't need all the die types.

I think DCC would do fine with...

d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d14, d16, d20, d24 and d30. d3 and d5 can be replicated with with the d6 and d10. d7 with either the d14 or the d8 (re-rolling 8s).

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Re: Dice...

Post by wavemotion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:30 am

(sorry for the thread necromancy... I'm new here)
finarvyn wrote:It's a design feature. Why did OD&D decide to use those strange "polyhedral" dice instead of just six-siders? Using a smaller die type limits the number range more.
They got away with this because OD&D birthed an industry and put these dice on the map. Today there are more than 3000 role-playing games we can play and more than 25,000 RPG products out there (source: rpggeek.com database entries). We had little choice in the 70s other than to go with these strange dice. It helped that they actually provided a full set with every basic set you bought! Over time, they became popular in stores and hobby shops. Now you can go into a comic shop, game store and sometimes small used bookstores and buy sets of these dice -- the basic sets are no more than US$6. But a d14? A d16? A d7? None of the gamestores I'm in carries those. Most are expensive online compared to more typical polyhedral dice. If DCC was birthing a new industry then it makes sense to use funky dice that even the most hardy gamers won't have ever seen. But DCC is a player in a wide field - there are other retro style games that are really quite good. Even if DCC is better (and it may be), most people will pick up a game with dice they already have lying around. I saw no fewer than 2 people (about 19 or 20 years of age) pick up the DCC Adventure Starter on Free RPG day, flip through it and when they discovered it required specialized dice put it right back down. Simulate the dice? That's about as un-fun when rolling dice as I can think of (i.e. roll d8 and re-roll on an 8 - just thinking of picking up and re-rolling when you've hit the highest number is counter-intuitive).

My gut feeling is that most older gamers will reject the use of dice that 3000 other RPGs managed to avoid. Kids don't care - they mostly want to play D&D 4e and if you really want to hook them, I'd wager a small electronic gadget to give the results immediately would have worked better. I've got two sets of these dice on order (had to get them from the UK delivered to the US... the GameScience dice have a sharp feel in my hands which bugs me, the d5 and d7 roll in unacceptable ways and the existing translucent material has a garish look -- I've always preferred pre-inked solids) and I'll do my best to interest people at the local game store (and my own local group) but I don't have high hopes given the odd (but not OD&D) playing equipment.

IMHO, there is enough variation in the standard set of 7 dice to allow for infinite variations on a theme. I think the use of a d30 as the only odd die might have gone over better since The Armory pushed these things for years and many of us do have one of those sitting around somewhere (not to mention Chessex makes nice ones and I have seen them occasionally in stores).

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Re: Dice...

Post by scadgrad » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:49 am

There's quite a long list of games that have used "weird dice", or at least, used them for many years. WHFB & WH40K got along fine with their scatter dice for something like 2 decades while Descent which is a hugely popular "pseudo-RPG" (or, if one can accept 4E as an RPG, I guess Descent pretty much is one as well) has its own complete set of proprietary dice (which FFG is of course, happy to sell separately). Some systems happen to use standard dice, but in greater numbers than some players might have, yet they gleefully pony up to get their hip Goth d10s or their Buttload of US Paratrooper d6s.

This is all fuss and nonsense. At some point in the very near future, most players who are "on the cheap" will simply whip out their Droid or IPhone in order to roll the dice that they don't own. Most gamers LOVE dice and will purchase them on the flimsiest of reasons. Some of us, no, I'd wager a good percentage of hardcore gamers who are happy to purchase new products, find the idea of even more wacky dice appealing.

At the end of the day, if the game is sound, fun and does what it says it does on the box, the hassle of picking up a few new dice won't stand in its way, and for many potential buyers, it will be seen as something new and fun, perhaps even innovative.
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Re: Dice...

Post by reverenddak » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:13 pm

I don't see the big deal.

The d5 and d7 are strange, but the rest of the dice make me giddy. I've had my d30 and d100 since the 80s. I don't even "collect" dice, I just have hundreds from years of gaming and the occasional "urge" for a new set. I still prefer my sharp transparent dice over others. I for one think it's awesome that Mr. Goodman decided to use these weird dice. It IS a weird game after all.

Did people get all bent out of shape when Aces & Eights went with a transparent target, poker cards and chips? What about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and their ridiculous proprietary dice?

Props to mr. Goodman for daring to be innovative.
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Re: Dice...

Post by wavemotion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:18 pm

reverenddak wrote:Did people get all bent out of shape when Aces & Eights went with a transparent target, poker cards and chips? What about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and their ridiculous proprietary dice?
A bit, yes. On various forums both took flak for the specialized equipment. However, both games provided all you needed when you bought them. WFRP (3rd Edition) specifically gives you 36 Custom Dice in the core set.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Doomwarden » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:44 pm

wavemotion wrote:
reverenddak wrote:Did people get all bent out of shape when Aces & Eights went with a transparent target, poker cards and chips? What about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and their ridiculous proprietary dice?
A bit, yes. On various forums both took flak for the specialized equipment. However, both games provided all you needed when you bought them. WFRP (3rd Edition) specifically gives you 36 Custom Dice in the core set.

-Dave
Don't know anything about A&8's but WHFRP 3rd Edition (which I quite enjoy) took savage criticism LONG before it was even released over it's "funny" dice...

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Re: Dice...

Post by jmucchiello » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:33 pm

The only really odd dice are the d7 and d14. d3 and d5 can be created with d6 and d10 easily. Tell me you've never had to roll a d8 for a missing d4 before. d16 and d24 are just d8 or d12 + a coin flip/hi low/odd even/whatever. Even d30 is easily faked with a d10 and a d3. So I fail to see the point of the complaints. The only die you must buy is a d14 or a d7 and suddenly you can generate any odd ball die roll DCCRPG requires.

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Re: Dice...

Post by wavemotion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:03 pm

jmucchiello wrote:Tell me you've never had to roll a d8 for a missing d4 before.
I've never had to roll a d8 for a missing d4 before. I'd do it if I had to.
d16 and d24 are just d8 or d12 + a coin flip/hi low/odd even/whatever. Even d30 is easily faked with a d10 and a d3. So I fail to see the point of the complaints.
If my primary attack was a d16 and I had to roll a d8 and toss a coin, I'd be pretty off-put after a few times having to do it. Part of the fun for me at the table is seeing the best (highest, lowest, etc) number come up and cheering with friends - not seeing the best roll and then consulting a coin flip to see if it really was a kick-ass roll. Heck, I'm a Software Engineer... I can simulate any roll with binary logic - maybe I'll switch my RPGing to all coins! Wait, I can also just use my iPhone, but then I've lost all the tactile goodness that is dice.

It's not that we can't make the numbers - it's that we have to work (either by buying dice that are not widely available to most RPGers, Hobby Shops, etc. or by simulating the rolls with modifier/control dice). If that work results in a more enjoyable game - great. If it's being different for difference sake, I'm less keen on it. If the specialty dice were included in the box - I'd be far less critical here. If you want more variety in the rolls, use a percentile system.

Using dice with unusual # sides is not particularly innovative. We've seen RPGs with real innovative randomizers. Sherpa uses a digital stopwatch (start... wait a few secs... stop and look at the 100th of seconds for a random d10) - used so you can RPG while hiking. Dread uses Jenga blocks. Sine Requie uses Tarrot cards. Noumenon uses dominoes. Moirai uses a Magic-8 ball. There are 90 RPGs I know of with unusual randomizers. Adding in unusual dice feels more like a gimmick. Whether or not it is a design decision and not driven by the desire to sell new dice won't change the perception out there.

-Dave

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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:19 pm

wavemotion wrote:
finarvyn wrote:It's a design feature. Why did OD&D decide to use those strange "polyhedral" dice instead of just six-siders? Using a smaller die type limits the number range more.
It helped that they actually provided a full set with every basic set you bought!
Well, I started playing OD&D years before they created a "Basic" set and you had to order those funky dice though the mail. (No internet back then.) OD&D started in '74 and the first Holmes Basic boxed sets were in '77 so that's several years when they didn't provide them in the box. Thanks for proving my point, though. :wink:
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Re: Dice...

Post by wavemotion » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:32 pm

finarvyn wrote:
wavemotion wrote:
finarvyn wrote:It's a design feature. Why did OD&D decide to use those strange "polyhedral" dice instead of just six-siders? Using a smaller die type limits the number range more.
It helped that they actually provided a full set with every basic set you bought!
Well, I started playing OD&D years before they created a "Basic" set and you had to order those funky dice though the mail. (No internet back then.) OD&D started in '74 and the first Holmes Basic boxed sets were in '77 so that's several years when they didn't provide them in the box. Thanks for proving my point, though. :wink:
As I said, if you are birthing an industry you can get away with the funky dice. In 1974 you either bought the dice or you didn't roleplay. In 2011 you have choices - dozens in the stores and thousands online. Many of those provide starter sets with dice included (Dragon Age, D&D Starter, WHFRP, T&T, the new Pathfinder Starter Box, etc). TSR realized that by including them in the box set they could sell more copies - an all in one purchase to buy and play for consumers. I got in when they provided a set that had the dice included. Plus you got a bonus crayon. In 1977 through 1983 (Gygax AD&D alongside Homes->Moldvay/Cook->Menzter) is when the game really took off and drew widespread attention. In 2011 you are competing with thousands of other RPGs who don't require you to purchase odd dice. Odd dice that need to be purchased separately isn't going to draw in many brand new players (i.e. non-RPGers). The use of odd dice will put off some percentage of existing RPGers. Maybe that's less than 1% (I think we all guess it's higher than that), that's still 1% less sales of the game. Adding an (admittedly small) barrier to a niche hobby only makes sense if the design is significantly better off. I'm guessing that the 1d7 rolls could be turned into 1d6 in some places and 1d8 in others without losing much of the ranges and keep the same feel of the game. But I hope I'm wrong and that the game (with odd dice) sells like gangbusters. I love Goodman Games and want to see them continue to do well.

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Re: Dice...

Post by reverenddak » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:25 pm

wavemotion wrote: I love Goodman Games and want to see them continue to do well.

-Dave
I think we can all agree that it would be in Goodman Games's best interest if they had some sort of bundle when the game goes on sale, OR AT LEAST (hahah, the capitalists will smile.) have a bundle ready by Christmas.

I, on the other hand, am READY. I gots my crystal clear ZOCCHI dice in my POCKET!.
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Re: Dice...

Post by reverenddak » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:39 pm

FWIW, at my play-test last night, no one at my table had an issue with the funky dice. d3, easy. no one had the "opportunity" to roll a d7 or d14, but they had to roll d16s and d24s and d30s. No one had an issue rolling (albeit they were confused at first, but they got it) rolling a d8 with a control die, a d12 with a control die or a d10 with a control die (for d30). In fact I taught someone how to roll d% last night. See what's happening here?
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Re: Dice...

Post by abk108 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:55 pm

wavemotion wrote: I'm guessing that the 1d7 rolls could be turned into 1d6 in some places and 1d8 in others
+ 9,000

On that i agree COMPLETELY. And most tables could just require a d%.
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Re: Dice...

Post by CEBrown » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:10 pm

reverenddak wrote: Did people get all bent out of shape when Aces & Eights went with a transparent target, poker cards and chips? What about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and their ridiculous proprietary dice?
I see your point (and agree with it) but these are probably not the best examples:
Deadlands used playing cards and poker chips LONG before Aces & Eights was even on the drawing board.
A&8 includes the transparent target(s - there are now three, regular, shotgun and Big Game; two come with the core rulebook, and the latter with The Shootist's Guide).
WHFRP includes its own funky dice - and the price of the stupid thing is more of an issue than the dice AFAICT.

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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:52 am

As others have noted, the regular poly sets aren't unusual any more to most gamers so one small compromise could be that a DCC boxed set might only include the funky shapes (d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d24, d30) and not have to include the "regular" polys (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20) in order to cut costs.

Heck, you might even be able to trim out the d3 and d5 because of the ease of substitution with d6 and d10 (halving) and I suppose you could eliminate the d16, d24, and d30 if you had to because you could advocate the control die. The only inconvenient one I see is either the d7 or d14, and given the choice I'd rather have the d14 becasue they roll better.

So a rulebook, regular polyhedral dice, and a d14 pretty much does it all.

If one wanted to supply more funky dice, they could even be cheap dice with crayon, like the old Basic D&D sets. The downside is that they might not match any dice I already own, but some gamers won't care. I got away with mismatched dice for years before they came up with cool colors. (Now I'm addicted to matching dice. Irony.)

Anyway, just me thinking out loud. I'm not sure if Joseph is sold on the boxed set idea or not.
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Re: Dice...

Post by Abchiptop » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:43 am

Image

because nobody else has said it.

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Re: Dice...

Post by Black Dougal » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:59 pm

As I have said before I also don't understand the "dice ire." If Warhammer Fantasy RP can get away with a $99 US box including all sorts of non-standard dice plus cards and tokens and what-not and still be selling well, then Joseph can certainly get away with asking gamers to spend $35 US + cost of one or more sets of Zocchi and still sell lots of copies and make a profit.

Also, take a look at Paizo. The core PFRPG book is $50 US for the printed version. Add to that $40 for the Bestiary, $40 US for the Advanced Players Guide, and $40 US for the Gamemastery Guide. Assuming you just buy the barebones that you need to run the game (Core + Bestiary) that is $90 US that you are spending and that doesn't even include dice. I know people that buy everything Paizo prints for PFRPG. I play it and I own well over $300 US worth of Paizo's books.

Many gamers plunk down hundreds of dollars a year for rule books and supplements.

Treebore has a specific problem. He provides dice to everyone he plays with apparently. I have a possible solution for him. I have been in DCRPG playtests where only the DM had the Zocchi dice. He had two sets. It was no big deal to share those with the whole table. When someone needed a funky die, the DM gave him or her one. After the roll the player handed the die back. Now for some tables it might take three or four sets, but I think it could work. The game won't necessarily require every player to buy a set of Zocchi dice. But I hope that, like me, they want to buy them after playing the game a time or two.

I also think that wavemotion's contention that the Zocchi dice will turn off new gamers is very suspect. If asking newcomers to buy specialized equipment for the game was a turn off, then no one would buy RPG's, video games, paintball equipment, or equipment for any specialized gaming activity. People fork over hundreds of dollars for video game consoles, the associated games, and Xbox Live subscriptions. What makes asking them to buy a set of Zocchi dice any different. Even spending $100 US on just dice would still be cheaper than buying a PS3. Also, I don't think 3000 competing games is a realistic argument either. If buying dice is such a problem because 3000 other games don't use them, then the RPG industry is doomed because to play World of Warcraft all you need is $15 US per month, a computer and an Internet connection. Since most homes in the US already have at least one computer and an Internet connection, those don't really count as specialized equipment. That makes WoW significantly cheaper than any RPG product on the market with the added benefit of not requiring ANY specialized equipment.

At first I was suspect of the dice. Now I love them. It sets the game apart. It makes DCCRPG unique amid an ocean of D&D-like games. I say keep them. I say integrate them more deeply into the system when it makes sense. DCCRPG is not going to outsell 4e. It may have a hard time against the likes of Paizo. Who cares as long as Joseph makes enough money to keep producing the materials that many of us like to buy and play. The community doesn't have to be large. There are plenty of small RPG companies doing their own thing and making it work. Look at Troll Lord Games, Green Ronin, and Kenzer & Company. They all have small but thriving communities. If the forums here are any indication Goodman will have that with DCCRPG also. Heck, even Paizo is a fairly small company if compared to WotC.

Funky dice aren't the bane of this game. In fact funky dice might just be the thing to make it succeed.
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Re: Dice...

Post by Black Dougal » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:01 pm

Abchiptop wrote:Image

because nobody else has said it.
+100 for the images. I like 'em.
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Re: Dice...

Post by CEBrown » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:45 pm

finarvyn wrote:
Heck, you might even be able to trim out the d3 and d5 because of the ease of substitution with d6 and d10 (halving) and I suppose you could eliminate the d16, d24, and d30 if you had to because you could advocate the control die. The only inconvenient one I see is either the d7 or d14, and given the choice I'd rather have the d14 becasue they roll better.
Along these lines - the d14 I own has "Days of the Week" and numbers 1-14 on it; maybe you could get the "funky dice" dual printed - so there's a d6 with both 1-6 AND 1-3 twice, a d8 with 1-4 and 1-8, etc.? Not sure how feasible this is but it could work...

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Re: Dice...

Post by wavemotion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:13 am

dkeester wrote:I also think that wavemotion's contention that the Zocchi dice will turn off new gamers is very suspect. If asking newcomers to buy specialized equipment for the game was a turn off, then no one would buy RPG's, video games, paintball equipment, or equipment for any specialized gaming activity.
There are many RPGs that only use D6s. They are quite popular - and I've friends that just grab them out of their Monopoly set. There are other popular RPGs that use only d20s or d10s - when you buy the game, you can buy tubes and tubes of these things right at the counter if you don't happen to have a game that already includes them (some boardgames use d20s or d10s). I've already seen two young would-be players (I think they were M:TG players as Free RPG Day coincided with a big M:TG tourney) pick up the starter adventure and when they learned about the 'funky' dice they commented about it and put it back down. Time will tell. Hopefully if my FLGS stocks the game they will also stock Zocchi dice. Currently they have 100+ dice sets and individual dice and not a single funky dice to be found. I take that back: I think they have an old hard-edged d30 on the back shelf that the old-timers pick up once in a while and tells stories about how The Armory tried to get these into mainstream use in the early 80s with supplements to D&D (mostly critical hit tables and body area locations as I recall).

-Dave
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Re: Dice...

Post by wavemotion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:17 am

dkeester wrote:Also, take a look at Paizo. The core PFRPG book is $50 US for the printed version. Add to that $40 for the Bestiary, $40 US for the Advanced Players Guide, and $40 US for the Gamemastery Guide. Assuming you just buy the barebones that you need to run the game (Core + Bestiary) that is $90 US that you are spending and that doesn't even include dice. I know people that buy everything Paizo prints for PFRPG. I play it and I own well over $300 US worth of Paizo's books.
Very few new Pathfinder players have joined the fray. The 600+ page book assures that. Pathfinder had a 50000 person beta and about a million 3.x players as their base prior to the book even being printed. Had the game not been a streamlined 3.x compatible with all the great Dungeon Crawl Classics modules I own, I certainly wouldn't have put down the $100 needed to get involved. The new Pathfinder Starter set will be inexpensive, have dice, cardboard figures, simplified rules (which are compatible with the full game) and an adventure. That's what will draw in new players.

-Dave

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Re: Dice...

Post by finarvyn » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:46 am

dkeester wrote:Treebore has a specific problem. He provides dice to everyone he plays with apparently. I have a possible solution for him. I have been in DCRPG playtests where only the DM had the Zocchi dice. He had two sets. It was no big deal to share those with the whole table. When someone needed a funky die, the DM gave him or her one. After the roll the player handed the die back. Now for some tables it might take three or four sets, but I think it could work. The game won't necessarily require every player to buy a set of Zocchi dice. But I hope that, like me, they want to buy them after playing the game a time or two.
This essentially is my situation. One guy has a bucket of poly dice and a couple players have little dicebags, but none of the players have the more unusual dice. My solution was essentially what you have detailed, where I have my set and an extra set for players to pass around. I only bought the few extras needed that weren't part of the standard poly sets. Since only one player needs to roll at a time, it's worked well for us. I tell them that if they want their own to roll, they can buy them. :wink:
Marv / Finarvyn
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DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
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jmucchiello
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Re: Dice...

Post by jmucchiello » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:59 pm

wavemotion wrote:That's what will draw in new players.
I don't know if this is what you meant, but DCCRPG is not designed to draw new players to the RPG hobby. It's a niche inside niche product, not a market leader.

Consider, it is attempting to replicate the stories of a style of writing that doesn't exist any more. Who writes serialized action stories today? Who reads these stories today? If you know old school, you've seen a d4 before. Adding d3s and d5s shouldn't be such a strain on credibility.

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wavemotion
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Re: Dice...

Post by wavemotion » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:07 am

jmucchiello wrote:
wavemotion wrote:That's what will draw in new players.
I don't know if this is what you meant, but DCCRPG is not designed to draw new players to the RPG hobby. It's a niche inside niche product, not a market leader.
And that's a totally cool design intent. If you're only looking to sell to a tiny percentage of gamers (themselves a small percentage of people), then go as off the rails as you want :)

It does, however, suggest that future DCC Modules will sell to a smaller base. The first 60 or so DCC modules were for 3.x (and, by extension, Pathfinder) - both editions were striving to expand to new gamers (both brand new gamers in the case of starter sets and more of a market share with open content). The later DCC modules were designed for 4e which has also tried to expand (via the 4e Red Box Starter Set with familiar cover artwork to bring in former gamers and new gamers). If DCC is content with a niche of a niche, I guess they are banking on a small loyal fanbase that remains stable.

-Dave

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