Levelling from 0 to 1

[finarvyn]

GRRM's Song of Fire and Ice: Sir Loras of the Flowers is a Knight who has never seen real battle. He has trained with sword and lance since he could stand and ride. He is beyond 1st level certainly. Rob Stark has the same training and is also untested in real battle before he leads an army against the Lannisters. Jon Snow is nearly untouchable with a sword compared to the raw recruits when he arrives at the wall. Does Jon Snow really not gain 1st level before he goes beyond the wall and has his first real battle?

Sure he does. If Jon Snow was a farmer or a baker he'd start out at 0th level, but if he has already gone through training of some sort he's advanced beyond 0th level when he begins the campaign. Perhaps beyond 1st level.

I guess I don't see the issue here.

[GnomeBoy]

...So conceptually, do all competent* feudal knights have to be above 1st level?...

From where I sit, I don't think there is or should be a hard-and-fast answer to this question. When running a campaign that simulates in some degree the fiction you mention, it sounds like knights would be above 1st level, regardless of their possible lack of experiences in the wider world; and characters in that campaign might start off at something above 1st level.

In another campaign, where the populace is at more of a subsistence level, people are surviving on exhausted farm lands, every dawn is an open question about seeing another sunset or not... if someone takes on an incursion of never-before-seen beastmen and survives (going from level 0 to level 1 thereby), well, they just might be the most powerful fighter that part of the world has known in a long time. And essentially be the equivalent of a 'knight' at first level.

I think the concept depends on the context.

And frankly, I think in the real world, there is such a thing as a 'knack'. If you picked ten people at random who had never handled a sword before, and you gave them all swords and a bit of instruction, they wouldn't all be at the same baseline "Level 0". The differences in their proficiency would go beyond differences in Str, Dex, etc. (although those differences ultimately do go toward making a de facto simulation). But D&D, et. al., don't work that way...

[moes1980]

People, I'm asking this question conceptually. I don't give a damn what the beta copy of the rules does or does not say about knights. I am examining the implications of such a short trip from 0-level to 1st level and what does it mean to BE 1st level.

GRRM's Song of Fire and Ice: Sir Loras of the Flowers is a Knight who has never seen real battle. He has trained with sword and lance since he could stand and ride. He is beyond 1st level certainly. Rob Stark has the same training and is also untested in real battle before he leads an army against the Lannisters. Jon Snow is nearly untouchable with a sword compared to the raw recruits when he arrives at the wall. Does Jon Snow really not gain 1st level before he goes beyond the wall and has his first real battle?

My point here is that the chance of a blacksmith's boy chasing some rats and becoming first level having the same swordfighting skills as any of these characters is nearly impossible. They trained for years at swordplay, the blacksmith's boy has a couple lessons under his belt. So conceptually, do all competent* feudal knights have to be above 1st level?

I have no problem with this. I know of DMs who play 3e where the average city guard is 8th level (and all that implies about the rest of the world) in order to keep the players respectful of authority at least for a little while.

Thieves are even worse in this regard. You really think a street urchin hasn't been in enough real fights to gain 100 xp (and beyond) before they turn 15?


* Competent being a key word here. Obviously Joffrey Baratheon hasn't had competent arms training if Arya Stark can disarm him.

So, the question is, how is it a person in training for knighthood ends up being the same power level as some farmer with a sword after both kill some rats or goblins? Maybe...knights talk a big talk but in the end, a knight that is wet behind the ears is not all that better than a farmer (who could possible be in better phisical condition than the knight, who is a nobel, and the farmer who works sun up to sun down in the fields). Maybe something to think about is that just because a person had the title of knight dose not mean they are a great worrior and I could see that being represented in the game if you chose to make a level 1 knight.

Maybe the funnel story would be something like, "you have trained for a few year, and are getting close to completing your training when your knightly lord and master is murdered by a foul creature that he was hunting in the hills. You have not yet recived the blessings of knight hood, but there is no one else to avenge your master, and so you take up arms and head into the hills....." after completing that quest..."now, with some experince under your belt and some satisfaction that you saw justice done, you take up your former master's adventuring gear. Though you lack the final training and lessons that your master ment to teach you before becoming a knight, you decide to take up the call as there is no one else to replace him. Your not sure you have all the answers, but you bodly step out into the dangerious world to implement justic where it is due."

That could be a repesenation. But if you want to talk about a knight that is very skilled from training, that it would just be a higher level character. You could turn the above situation on its head and say that "the knight has trained for years with the instruction from wise and experinced knights and so he is much higher level than even a farm boy who has killed some orcs and goblins.

Just make the system work for you!

[kataskicana]

With a rule book looking to be as small as possible I think whoever said 'Make it work for you' was dead on. If you envision level 4 street urchins and level 8 squires... go for it. Or if the Knights of the Round table are all level 1... go for it.

There was an article in one of the very first Dragon Magazines about Gandalf and why he was really a Level 3 wizard. (and my 30+ year memory might be off an it might be lower.... I'm sure it wasn't higher). Basically he just provided a bunch of knowledge (which in a game without skills is not representative of level) and lost a fight to a balrog... any dirt farmer can do that! (of course I'm just trying to stir things up with the last comment... but the article IS real and not totally without merit!)

Who today would scale a campaign and use Gandalf as a guideline for a level 3 wizard?

[finarvyn]

There was an article in one of the very first Dragon Magazines about Gandalf and why he was really a Level 3 wizard. (and my 30+ year memory might be off an it might be lower.... I'm sure it wasn't higher).

Actually, the article was "Gandalf was a 5th level Magic-user" by Bill Seligman (March, 1977), but your basic premise is correct. Seligman looked at everything that Gandalf did in the books and tried to determine what level of D&D spell would be needed to pull off the same thing. His final conclusion was that the highest spell needed was 3rd, which meant that a 5th level MU would be able to cast everything that Gandalf could cast.

Ah ... so Joseph's original plan to cap the DCC RPG wasn't that far from the mark. Who would want to have PC's better than Gandalf in their campaign?

[Machpants]

GRRM's Song of Fire and Ice: Sir Loras of the Flowers is a Knight who has never seen real battle. He has trained with sword and lance since he could stand and ride. He is beyond 1st level certainly. Rob Stark has the same training and is also untested in real battle before he leads an army against the Lannisters. Jon Snow is nearly untouchable with a sword compared to the raw recruits when he arrives at the wall. Does Jon Snow really not gain 1st level before he goes beyond the wall and has his first real battle?

Sure he does. If Jon Snow was a farmer or a baker he'd start out at 0th level, but if he has already gone through training of some sort he's advanced beyond 0th level when he begins the campaign. Perhaps beyond 1st level.

I guess I don't see the issue here.

Colour me confused with what the point is too.