What 4E classes do you want from Forgotten Heroes?

[Tavis]

In the first book, Forgotten Heroes: Fist, Fang and Song, we did the barbarian, bard, druid, and monk. The second book covers another AD&D class, plus three others that range from 'archetypical fantasy role' to 'cool new take on a classic subject'. The manuscript for that book was handed over recently, and now we're thinking of ideas for the third in the series. The format is four new-to-4E classes, one for each role, united by a common theme (like apocalypse in the first book).

What classes would you like to see us cover - either old-school classics like the cavalier, witch, or amazon, or new concepts? Are there specific mechanics you'd like to see (like 'a leader who doesn't need to hit an enemy to buff allies')? Or themes you'd like to see explored, like "war" or "the planes"?

[xredjasonx]

As for theme, how about heroes arising from a world where humans and other nearby humanoid races/lands are under subjugation following a recent or not too recent invasion and take over by evil forces. Perhaps a once mighty human kingdom and the nearby lands such as a forest occupied by the elves etc. has been invaded by a massive army of orcs, goblins, giants (cough..Greyhawk..cough) or what-have-you....

And so for the classes, with these people living under iron rule/subjugation, maybe they all have a rogue-ish element. I'll have to think more on that....

[xredjasonx]

Leader: Something like the errant or outlaw priest from 2E, a wandering follower of one of the outlawed gods.

Defender: Maybe a take on both shadow warrior and weapon master - a martial character that must train (and perhaps fight) in secrecy. Or you could go the gladiator route.

Striker: A 4E take on the duskblade from 3.5? "Their spell selection is limited and generally focused on a single target; however, their spells get a bonus against enemies whom they have struck in melee combat."

Controller: Something like Shadowcaster from Tome of Magic (3.5). The character draws their arcane power from the Shadowfell. Perhaps good illusionist style stuff included and shadow based offensive stuff. I don't yet know what the big bad evil guy in Sellswords of Punjar is, but I've seen the cover, perhaps he can summon similar, smaller creatures of shadow....

[xredjasonx]

As for the class ideas I was just throwing something out there, one could go in a totally different direction, it's the theme I really like....

[Tavis]

That's a cool idea! One of the goals of the series is to make each book usable for all kinds of campaigns, so we'd abstract that into a general theme like "oppression and those who rebel against it", since everybody's game world has some region where one group is subjugating another & you could tie these classes to that region. Then the introduction would survey ideas for starting a whole new campaign around that theme. One of these ideas could be humanoids subjugated by evil invaders, as you suggest: another might be angels establishing a kingdom of heaven on earth, trying to stamp out mortal wickedness & leaving no room for neutrality or self-determination.

In expressing the theme through the classes, we'd try to have two aligned with one side and two with the other. In Fang, Fist, and Sword there's the bard and monk who oppose the apocalypse sweeping away the lore of the ancient masters, and the druid and barbarian who embrace the cleansing destruction that makes room for the return of primal wilderness. So for a theme of oppression, you'd want two classes who were working to overthrow it, like a rebel class, and two who worked to perpetuate it. I have a friend (and perhaps co-author on a Goodman project I can't say anything about yet) who is playing a homebrew class he calls the counter-insurgent, a master of info-gathering and psych ops, in a 3.5 campaign I'm running.

Having some classes on each side of a thematic conflict can be tricky - who'd want to roleplay the oppressor? In your idea about the invasion of evil, maybe you have someone who was trained to support the subjugation, so he has the overseer class - but then turns against the invaders and joins the rest of the party in fighting for freedom. That's also why I threw in the idea about the angels - sometimes the oppressors are on the side of right.

And all of this theme stuff is always optional - we want to be sure it just adds depth to classes that are compelling even if you don't adopt any of the background. But I'd want to play these PCs!

[xredjasonx]

Ahh, I see what you're saying. Maybe the defender is some sort of trained martial class on the side of the oppressors, and either the leader or controller can be something like the Dark Sun templar class....

[robertsconley]

How about a set of realistic versions of the core classes.

Sort of like GURPS Martial Arts except for D&D 4th Edition.

The magic using classes would be more subdued, less flash bang magic, more buff oriented.

Instead of Fighter you would have a Warrior
Priests instead of Clerics
Woodsmen instead of Rangers
and so on.

I think the core system of D&D 4th edition can be oriented to other types of fantasy as well as the heroic variety.

For example if you look at Lord of the Rings Online versus World of Warcraft the two use a similar interface but one is completely different in feel.

The same with the realistic versions vs the core versions.

[xredjasonx]

Perhaps that could be integrated with the "oppression and those who rebel against it" theme. Maybe the cleric is now a priest due to the outlawing of the former good religions, and therefore no more 'organized' good religions. Sorry ahead of time if I'm just repeating myself.

And as Tavis said, "for a theme of oppression, you'd want two classes who were working to overthrow it, like a rebel class, and two who worked to perpetuate it."

And so the defender could be some type of primal warrior/pit-fighter/gladiator or a knight/cavalier or other such organized martial fighter on the oppressor's side.

I still see the striker as one who lives on the edge of civilization, eeking out a living through his wits, refusing to live as anything but a free man (woodsman?), maybe even disguising himself and entering the city to procure provisions etc... However I also liked what Tavis said about that homebrew class in his campaign "counter-insurgent, a master of info-gathering and psych ops." I'd love to see 4E mechanics for that.

Maybe the controller could be a rebuild of the old mage/thief? Or again someone on the other side of the conflict...


The realistic versions idea is cool, but for me, I'd have to see the mechanics for something like before I'd play what could easily be just stripped down versions of what's already out there. The hero aspect is one of the things that makes 4E so awesome.

[mightyjules]

I´d like to see the Samurei and the Ninja.Though in general I´m more into the Asian Characters.

[blizack]

I'm assuming the assassin has already been done, or at least considered. I'd be potentially interested in seeing a cavalier, but I'm not sure how you'd differentiate it from a fighter or warlord.

Maybe make a dedicated thief class, as opposed to the ninja-like class the rogue has become? It might be tough to figure out how to give a thief a role in combat, though.

Summoning seems to be a no-no in 4e so far, but I think a summoner class could be made to work with a bit of creativity and thought put into it.

An alchemist, who throws various powders, elixirs, etc into the fray could be cool. Maybe take a look at the 4e artificer for ideas on how this could work in the current class framework.

How about a grappler/brawler/strongman character, along the lines of Hercules, Samson, and similar mythological figures?

[Jengenritz]

An alchemist, who throws various powders, elixirs, etc into the fray could be cool. Maybe take a look at the 4e artificer for ideas on how this could work in the current class framework.

Agreed. I've always wanted to see a workup like the Alchemist class from Final Fantasy Tactics. Tried to do it myself but it was rubbish.

I´d like to see the Samurei and the Ninja.

Also agreed. Both the 3.5 Ronin and Samurai were lame, but the 3E prestige class Master Samurai was pretty cool (hellooo supreme cleave!). I've never liked how they do ninja.
With the "superpowers" of 4E, now seems a good time to bring out the crazy-go-nuts of the samurai and ninja.

[Nahat Anoj]

I want to see a Martial Controller. Something like a reverse warlord - an individual whose intricate plans, uncanny foresight, or penetrating understanding of psychology stymie foes and/or break their wills.

[Ken Hart]

An Alchemist class sounds cool to me -- one of the Ravenloft supplements from Arthaus/S&S had a good treatment of that a few years ago. I liked the shadow mage from one of the last 2nd edition books (Player Options: Spells and Powers?), but there isn't much there that you can replicate with a 4E warlock.

[Tavis]

Judging from things I've seen on the EN World forums, the martial controller seems to be a mythical creation, like the Holy Grail that led Galahad et. al. into so much trouble, or the Lost Chord that led the Who to make Who's Next from the ashes of Lifehouse!

We keep talking about doing a martial controller, but usually chicken out. I think it's hard to visualize a martial controller as doing something different than what I imagine the warlord is doing, but maybe it'd be OK just to make a variant of that warlordy flavor with powers that focus on intimidating and out-maneuvering enemies instead of inspiring and marshalling allies.

We've also thought about an alchemist as a martial controller - someone who gets up close and douses a burst of enemies with flammable oil, or can throw a bomb of caustic powder into a nearby mob. Would the S&S alchemist be good inspiration along those lines?

[blizack]

I'd say that the idea of an alchemist as martial controller doesn't make a ton of sense to me - alchemy is defined in 4e (in Adventurer's Vault) as a process in which "arcane ingredients are required". Sounds arcane to me. Besides, I'm not sure how viable it would be to have a guy whose attacks are all "throws bomb". (Yes, I know I'm the one who brought up the alchemist in the first place - I'm just having a tough time fitting it into the power/role schematics.)

As for the mythical martial controller, the only thing I've seen so far that seems both unique from a flavor standpoint and sufficiently diverse to support 30 levels of powers is "the Muscle", discussed here:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=414631

Now, this is written up more or less as a tongue-in-cheek "Hulk smash!" class, but the basic idea - a strong character who pummels, grapples, throws, and intimidates enemies while literally rearranging the battlefield - could easily work as a true martial controller, with a bit of creative (and restrained) design...

[Jengenritz]

I'm not sure how viable it would be to have a guy whose attacks are all "throws bomb".

As opposed to a guy whose attacks are all "stab stuff" or "cast spell?" Seriously, it works, and since 4E doesn't seem to really care how a thing works, only that it works, you've got something there.

He wouldn't even be a purely ranged attacker.

Purely off the top of my head:
They are implement users, and the implement is a philosopher's stone.

Their powers aren't spells or exploits, but formulae; their power source is alchemical.

"Ointments" are touch healing/boost...I smear X on you for Y effect
Ex. Ointment of Respite Alchemist Utility 2
Encounter * Alchemical, Implement One creature
Standard action Melee touch
hit a buddy; he spends a healing surge and gains the hp and +2 to saves until end of your next turn

"Corrosives, Accelerants, Toxins, and Arcs" all work like ointments, but with acid, fire, poison, or lightning damage
Ex. Muscular Toxin Alchemist Attack 1
At-Will * Alchemical, Implement One creature
Standard action Melee touch
Int vs. Fort: target takes [low standard] poison damage, and is weakened (save ends)

"Bombards and Sprays" are area bursts and close blasts
Ex. Hallucinogenic Spray Alchemist Attack 1
Daily * Alchemical, Implement All in area
Standard action Close blast 2
Int vs. Will: target takes [low standard] + INT psychic damage, and is dazed (save ends)

These guys are like wizards:
...in that they have a grimoire, into which they put their formulae.
...they affect a variety of defenses based off their INT
...their attacks do a variety of damage types (fire, psychic, poison, etc)

These guys are not like wizards:
...in that they get more hp and surges (being close up more)
...Must take Alchemist instead of Ritual Caster (although can take Ritual Caster later)
...they don't get crazy bonus formulae
...they have some healing/support ability

BINGO, there's a start on your alchemist, without really referring to the rules (although checking with the wife that "corrosive" is proper for acidic instead of "caustic", also clarified that "melee touch" still exists)

[Jengenritz]

Alright, now I'm really thinking about this.

Class Options

Supportive Alchemy
Your utility formulae with a duration of "until the end of your next turn" instead have a duration of rounds equal to your INT mod (min 1)

Combative Alchemy
Your daily attack formulae gain the "Reliable" keyword

Class Features

Alchemical Aptitude
- buy alchemy stuff cheaper (abstracts you making it yourself)
- deal an extra 1d6 per tier with damaging alchemical effects (vials of acid, etc.)
- slightly better range on thrown alchemical goods
- increase by +1 the attack of alchemical goods with a set attack

Class-Specific Feats

Student of Transmutation
multiclass feat: gain training in a class skill, an at-will as an encounter, extra 1d6 (not per tier) damage with alchemical goods

Principles of Amplitude
Extra alchemical goods damage increases to d8s, thrown range gets a bit better, pre-set attacks gain bonus equal to INT mod

Principles of Contingency
Expend a daily or utility power, make attack (if appropriate), delay effect or hit for rounds up to INT

Paragon Paths

Field Researcher
- gain some durability and cool single-target attacks

Seeker of the Fountain
- gain some healing and status boosts

Demolitionist
- gain ludicrous area attacks, bonuses to attack objects and constructs

Also, thinking about the powers, you could throw in adhesives (grab/immobilize), powders (close blasts), and other fun chemical terms...and for higher levels some cool cosmic abilities as you transmute reality in search of the Formula of Creation.
If all the technical chemistry turns you off, change a few up with a fantasy-sounding reference: "Powder of Ibn-Ghazi" from the Cthulhu mythos is an example, or "Devossel's Ointment"

[blizack]

Okay, Jegenritz, you've re-sold me on the idea of the alchemist as a viable class. I still don't think it would be a martial controller (probably an arcane controller or mayyyybe striker), but you're off to a promising start here.