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 Post subject: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:03 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 am
Posts: 173
Two notes on this party: I ruled that the buckler could still be used when wielding a 2 handed weapon. Also PC C wanted a short composite horse bow so I created one. With that said, Here is the party:

PC A Mystic Warrior variant (Half-Elf)
Advantages: Low light vision (2 CPs), Extra Weapon Attack lvl 2 (4 CPs)
Disadvantages: Vow of Poverty (-1 CP), No sense of taste (-1 CP)
Skills:
Agility d6 (2 CPs)
Arcanum d8>Psychogenic d6 (10 CPs)
Endurance d6 (2 CPs)
Melee Weapon d6>Sword d4 (4 CPs)
Reflexes d6 (2 CPs)
Resistance d6 (2 CPs)
Scrutiny d6 (2 CPs)
Willpower d6 (2 CPs)
ADPs:
Weaponry: 10
Evade: 12 (6 because of chain mail)
Dodge: 10
Deflect: 6
PDPs:
Resilience: 32
Toughness: 18
Armor: Chain mail d8
Shield: none.
Weapons:
Katana (2H) +3 Harm, +2 Init, Max Split: 2
Short Sword (1H) +2 Harm, +3 Init, Max Split: 3
Magic:
SPs: 14
Spells: Way of the Warrior, Psychic Armor, Telekinetic Bolt


PC B Paladin/Ranger type variant (Elf)
Advantages: Low light vision (2 CPs), Ambidexterity (2 CPs), Extra Weapon Attack lvl 1 (2 CPs), Literacy (1 CP)
Disadvantages: Compulsion (-1 CP)
Skills:
Agility d6 (2 CPs)
Arcanum d6>Supernatural d4 (6 CPs)
Melee Weapon d8>Sword d4 (6 CPs)
Ranged Weapons d6 (2 CPs)
Reflexes d6 (2 CPs)
Speed d6 (2 CPs)
Stealth d6 (2 CPs)
Willpower d6 (2 CPs)
ADPs:
Weaponry: 12
Evade: 12 (6 because of chain mail)
Dodge: 12
Deflect: 6 (9 w/Buckler on arm)
PDPs:
Resilience: 24
Toughness: 12
Armor: Chain mail d8
Shield: Buckler +50% deflect pool
Weapons:
Great Ax (2H) +4 Harm, +0 Init, Max Split: 1
Short Bow (2H) +2 Harm, +0 Init, Max Split: 3
Dagger (1H) +0 Harm, +2 Init, Max Split: 3
Magic:
SPs: 10
Spells: Mantle, Weaken


PC C Paladin/Knight type variant (Elf)
Advantages: Low light vision (2 CPs),
Skills:
Animal Handling d6>Ride d4 (4 CPs)
Arcanum d6>Supernatural d4 (6 CPs)
Melee Weapon d8>Sword d4 (6 CPs)
Ranged Weapons d8>Bows d4 (6 CPs)
Reflexes d6 (2 CPs)
Speed d6 (2 CPs)
Willpower d6 (2 CPs)
ADPs:
Weaponry: 12
Evade: 10 (5 because of chain mail)
Dodge: 10
Deflect: 8 (12 w/Buckler on arm)
PDPs:
Resilience: 24
Toughness: 12
Armor: Chain mail d8
Shield: Buckler +50% deflect pool
Weapons:
Long Sword (1H) +3 Harm, +2 Init, Max Split: 2
Short Horse Composite Bow (2H) +3 Harm, +0 Init, Max Split: 2(House created weapon)
Lance (1H) +3 Harm, +0 Init, Max Split: 1
Mace (1H) +2 Harm, +1 Init, Max Split: 2
Dagger (1H) +0 Harm, +2 Init, Max Split: 3
Magic:
SPs: 10
Spells: Mantle, Heal

_________________
"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:52 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
[EDIT: At first, I said eliminate Arcanum from the Resilience Defense Pools for this example. It's just pushes that score too high, and I've felt that way for a long while. Since the enemies don't have magic, it's a moot point in this first combat example post.]

Suggested Option: Resilience DP it's designed as representative of fatigue, and can be drained to create effects. It's an "extra action" pool of sorts. The existing rules on dipping into Resilience DP to cast spells once primary spell points are out is an example of this. As such, characters should be able to "buy" out of their Resilience Pools to add points off effectiveness to their actions. It thus becomes something like Action Points, usable for offense or defense. This would allow a mage to "punch through" a creature's resilience with some action (at a temporary cost to the Resilience DP). Of course, one cannot "spend" any other DP like that. This actually replaces "eldritch focus" as an advantage. There would be a limit per level on the number of points that could be spent.

    For PCS: Level / max points "spent" out of Resilience to enhance action

    level 1 to 2 + 4 to roll
    level 3 to 4 + 6 to roll
    level 5 to 6 + 8 to roll
    level 7 to 8 + 10 to roll
    level 9 to 10 + 12 to roll
    level 11 to 12 + 14 to roll
    level 13 to 15 + 16 to roll
    and so on... it can't be used to heal (it can't be used like a 4E healing surge).

For creatures, only full-fledged NPCs have this capability (to add to ability rolls by draining Resilience), if the DM desires it.

Their group challenge score is 90. So I'll put together an encounter using standard creatures (meaning at least 2D in primary attack). We won't yet remove Resilience from them (at 1/2 their highest threat), but Harm spells will affect Toughness directly, okay?

2 Town Guards
TY/CS 18.0
Threat Ranks
Melee D6 > D6 > ( 2 to 12 )
Unarmed D4 > ( 1 to 4 )
Ranged D6 > ( 1 to 6 )
HP 18 each
RS 6
BP: D6
Notes
Treasure: Small Cache (6-10 gold crowns) x 1-5 MAGIC 5%
Weapons: Short Sword (1H) +2 Harm, +3 Init, Max Split: 3
Armor: leather D6

1 Captain of the Guard
TY/CS 40.0
Threat Ranks
Melee D12 > D8 (2 to 20 )
Unarmed D4 > ( 1 to 4 )
Ranged D8 > ( 1 to 8 )
Arcane D6 > D6 ( 2 to 12 )
HP 40 (44 with shield)
RS 10 ( Mod to RS x0 )
BP D8
Treasure: Cache (11-100 gold crowns.) x 1-5 MAGIC 10%
Weapons: Short Bow (2H) +2 Harm, +0 Init, Max Split: 3
Short Sword (1H) +2 Harm, +3 Init, Max Split: 3
Armor: D8+1 (chain + medium shield).

ROUND 1:

Order of initiative:

D12
D10
D8 captain of guard
D6 mystic warrior, paladin/ranger, knight

D4


So, ignoring weapon speed (which I prefer to do for now), there's only two phases in this battle round. Also, We'll allow ranged attacks and general movement to occur before close attacks. So, assume the guards appear (in a town where you're not wanted), and out in the open road they attack to subdue or kill your party. The heroes will act before the enemies in phase D6.

The captain of the guard moves first (D8), and gets a ranged shot off at your ranger type. He rolls a 5, reducing the Dodge DP to 7.

Next, the mystic warrior fires off a "telekinetic bolt" at one of the standard soldiers, and rolls D8+D6, rolling a 10 (cost 5). It bypasses the soldier's resilience, knocking him back, and bring his HP down to 8.

The paladin/ranger shoots his short bow (D6 ability) with a +2 to Po-Harm, getting a 6. He targets the same solider hit by the telekinetic bolt, but his target's leather armor affords some protection (2 pts), so he's down to 4 HP.

The knight fires his composite bow, splitting his attacks 1d8+3 and 1d4+3. The first shot get's a 10. The target rolls his armor getting a 6, so 4 points go through dropping him to 1HP. Then, the knight fires again against the already wounded soldier, results in a 5. The solider rolls his armor, get's a 3, and so he's out of the fight.

The one soldier left charges into the battle, drawing his short sword. I'll say he is within striking range (about 30 feet at the beginning of round), so he closes the distance. He attacks, the first for 10 damage targets the knight. In the first strike, the knight parries, bringing his own Weaponry DP down to 2.

ROUND 2:

The captain of the guard moves first again, and goes in for the kill. He attacks the closest unengaged character, who I'll assume is the "ranger type". He makes a single strike, rolling D12+D8+2 (for short sword), rolling 21 Potential Harm points. The ranger attempts to "evade" as he pulls his great axe, but his score is only 6 due to wearing chain. 15 points blow through, reduced by a roll of 6 for armor. 9 Points make it through to his toughness! The ranger has got 3 hitpoints left.

The mystic warrior, unhappy with the effectiveness of the guard captain's attack on his friend, fires off another "telekinetic bolt" at him, and rolls D8+D6, getting a 9 (cost 4). It bypasses the captain's ADPs, resilience and armor, bringing him down to 31 HP.

The paladin/ranger casts "Weaken" at the captain of the guard. He rolls against the spell difficulty of 2D4, and beats it with a roll of 7 (cost 3, and the spell does not fizzle out). The captain's Resilience is reduced to 3 points. [optional rule] Recognizing that the spell didn't take effect, the ranger "spends" 4 points of his own Resilience to bring the captain's Resilience down to zero (wasting one point), and so the captain is weakened by 7 points to his Po-Harm for his next action. [optional rule] Note: making the ranger PC roll the dice versus the difficulty of the spell each round to maintain (in addition to 1/2 spell cost) eliminates the need for the captain to have "stats" in order to make "saves" later. So we'll do that.

The knight readies his melee weapon, rolling a single strike: D8+D4+3. He attacks the last soldier and gets a 14. The soldier doesn't stand a chance and drops to the ground. Because the knight readied a weapon he doesn't get an extra attack.

ROUND 3

Captain of the guard, with no help from his fallen comrades, attacks the "ranger type" yet again, but at a -7 (due to weakness). He makes another single strike, rolling D12+D8+2 (for short sword), rolling 13 (-7) Potential Harm points, for a total of 6 PH. The ranger attempts to parry with his great axe, his Weaponry DP now reduced to 6. Because he was attacked, he must not only roll versus 2D4 to maintain his spell, but also making a Willpower roll versus (p. 39) the number of threat points (7). He rolls a 5 and fails, so the spell fizzles, regardless of the difficulty roll.

The mystic warrior shrugs and casts "telekinetic bolt" at the guard captain again, and rolls D8+D6, getting a 14 (cost 6). It bypasses the captains resilience, and 14 points of damage go to HP. The captain is down to 17 HP.

The paladin/ranger readies his great axe, and swings it at the captain (D8+D4+4), rolling 10 points (no extra attack allowed because he switched from his bow). The captain rolls armor, subtracts 4, and takes 6 to HP. He is now at 11 HP.

The knight now has his melee weapon readied, and attacks the captain, with a roll of D8+D4+3. He rolls 9. The captain rolls his armor once, getting a 6 (+1 for shield), so he takes 2 more points of damage, dropping him to 7 HP.

ROUND 4

The captain attacks the ranger again, rolling his ADC of D12+D8+2 (for short sword), resulting in 14 Potential Harm points. The ranger , out of usable ADPs, just rolls armor, and gets a 4. 10 points blow through, bringing him to -2. Bye!

The mystic warrior yells out, and draws his katana (forfeits extra attack for drawing a weapon), and strides forward to attack the evil captain. He rolls D6+d4+3, getting a 7. The captain rolls 1D8 for armor, gets a 4 and "parries it off" (so to speak) with his HP reduced to 4.

The paladin/ranger remains a crumpled, sad prone body.

The knight retaliates, rolling a single strike: D8+D4+3. get's a 9. The captain rolls his armor, getting an 8 (+1 for shield) so he takes no damage.

ROUND 5

The captain steps over the body of the ranger, and faces the mystic's anger and katana, again swinging with a nasty D12+D8+2 (for short sword), rolling 18 Potential Harm points. The mystic parries, but 8 points blow through the ADP, and after armor takes 2 points off, 6 points reduce the Mystic's toughness to 12.

The mystic warrior casts Psychic Armor, granting himself a 1D4 extra armor.

The paladin/ranger remains still, a crumpled, very sad site.

The knight, rolling a single strike: D8+D4+3. He attacks the captain again, and gets a 10. The captain rolls his armor, gets a terrible 1, and even with his shield and goes down for the count.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:04 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 am
Posts: 173
dancross wrote:
Right off the bat, eliminate Arcanum from the Resilience Defense Pools. It's just pushes that score too high, and I've felt that way for a long while. Let's just make it so.


So Mystic warrior now has 18 Resilience.
The two elves both now have 14 Resilience each.

Their group challenge score is 90. So I'll put together an encounter using standard creatures (meaning at least 2D in primary attack). We won't yet remove Resilience from them (at 1/2 their highest threat), but Harm spells will affect Toughness directly, okay?


1. I don't like eliminating Arcanum from the resilience pool. It doesn't make sense to me that an individual who uses magic everyday is just as susceptible as a fighter who has never felt the forces surge through his being. I could see cutting it in half and dropping the multiplier on resistance (though this has no real bearing on the combat shown).

2. You stated that Harm spells will effect toughness directly yet in the combat you do not allow the telekinetic bolt to effect toughness, you take it through resilience first? I prefer that it still have to make it through resilience first as shown in the combat but I just wanted to point out the apparent discrepancy.

3. I honestly don't have time right now to work through this combat on my own. Will try to find time soon.

4. What happened to the 10 regular goblins?

_________________
"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:33 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Quote:
1. I don't like eliminating Arcanum from the resilience pool. It doesn't make sense to me that an individual who uses magic everyday is just as susceptible as a fighter who has never felt the forces surge through his being. I could see cutting it in half and dropping the multiplier on resistance (though this has no real bearing on the combat shown).


Ok, since you're such a good friend I'll leave it, but arcanum based DP should be listed in a separate box, one for each power source: mystic DP, primordial DP, supernatural DP, and Psychogenic DP. They should be based on specialization + mastery MRVs alone. Attacks other than harm affect regular Resilience first, and then those if it applies.

Quote:
2. You stated that Harm spells will effect toughness directly yet in the combat you do not allow the telekinetic bolt to effect toughness, you take it through resilience first? I prefer that it still have to make it through resilience first as shown in the combat but I just wanted to point out the apparent discrepancy.


Oops! It was very late and I was trying not to fall asleep before I finished. I was trying to actually play each round out, rolling the dice for real. I'll go back and fix it.

Quote:
3. I honestly don't have time right now to work through this combat on my own. Will try to find time soon.


Ok.

Quote:
4. What happened to the 10 regular goblins?


...they're lurking?


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:48 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
StormPatriarch wrote:


1. I don't like eliminating Arcanum from the resilience pool. It doesn't make sense to me that an individual who uses magic everyday is just as susceptible as a fighter who has never felt the forces surge through his being. I could see cutting it in half and dropping the multiplier on resistance (though this has no real bearing on the combat shown).

2. You stated that Harm spells will effect toughness directly yet in the combat you do not allow the telekinetic bolt to effect toughness, you take it through resilience first? I prefer that it still have to make it through resilience first as shown in the combat but I just wanted to point out the apparent discrepancy.

3. I honestly don't have time right now to work through this combat on my own. Will try to find time soon.

4. What happened to the 10 regular goblins?


Hi there! Now that I'm awake I'll have to go back and review what i wrote.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 am
Posts: 173
dancross wrote:
StormPatriarch wrote:


1. I don't like eliminating Arcanum from the resilience pool. It doesn't make sense to me that an individual who uses magic everyday is just as susceptible as a fighter who has never felt the forces surge through his being. I could see cutting it in half and dropping the multiplier on resistance (though this has no real bearing on the combat shown).

2. You stated that Harm spells will effect toughness directly yet in the combat you do not allow the telekinetic bolt to effect toughness, you take it through resilience first? I prefer that it still have to make it through resilience first as shown in the combat but I just wanted to point out the apparent discrepancy.

3. I honestly don't have time right now to work through this combat on my own. Will try to find time soon.

4. What happened to the 10 regular goblins?


Hi there! Now that I'm awake I'll have to go back and review what i wrote.


O.K. :)

_________________
"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:26 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
StormPatriarch wrote:
dancross wrote:
StormPatriarch wrote:


1. I don't like eliminating Arcanum from the resilience pool. It doesn't make sense to me that an individual who uses magic everyday is just as susceptible as a fighter who has never felt the forces surge through his being. I could see cutting it in half and dropping the multiplier on resistance (though this has no real bearing on the combat shown).

2. You stated that Harm spells will effect toughness directly yet in the combat you do not allow the telekinetic bolt to effect toughness, you take it through resilience first? I prefer that it still have to make it through resilience first as shown in the combat but I just wanted to point out the apparent discrepancy.

3. I honestly don't have time right now to work through this combat on my own. Will try to find time soon.

4. What happened to the 10 regular goblins?


Hi there! Now that I'm awake I'll have to go back and review what i wrote.


O.K. :)


It should be good now. Allowing Harm spells to bypass Resilience made a big difference. I hope you see what a difference using standard creatures (rather than fodder) makes in the danger level. That captain took one of your guys down pretty fast. The encounter was "balanced" according the CS rules in the corebook.

What do you think of a PC's ability to "spend" Resilience DP to enhance actions, as limited by current level (see in the intro to my post)? The definition of the word is "ability to recover readily from illness, depression, adversity, or the like; buoyancy", and the score is calculated from resistance and willpower, so it all makes sense to me. I'm trying to avoid changing the published rules as much as possible, and I think this may be a very good balancing factor.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 am
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dancross wrote:
So, ignoring weapon speed (which I prefer to do for now), there's only two phases in this battle round. Also, We'll allow ranged attacks and general movement to occur before close attacks. So, assume the guards appear (in a town where you're not wanted), and out in the open road they attack to subdue or kill your party. The heroes will act before the enemies in phase D6.

The captain of the guard moves first (D8), and gets a ranged shot off at your ranger type. He rolls a 5, reducing the Dodge DP to 7.

Next, the mystic warrior fires off a "telekinetic bolt" at one of the standard soldiers, and rolls D8+D6, rolling a 10 (cost 5). It bypasses the soldier's resilience, knocking him back, and bring his HP down to 8.

The paladin/ranger shoots his short bow (D6 ability) with a +2 to Po-Harm, getting a 6. He targets the same solider hit by the telekinetic bolt, but his target's leather armor affords some protection (2 pts), so he's down to 5 HP.

The knight fires his composite bow, splitting his attacks 1d8+3 and 1d4+3. The first shot get's a 10. The target rolls his armor getting a 6, so 4 points go through dropping him to 1HP. Then, the knight fires again against the already wounded soldier, results in a 5. The solider rolls his armor, get's a 3, and so he's out of the fight.

The one soldier left charges into the battle, drawing his short sword. I'll say he is within striking range (about 30 feet at the beginning of round), so he closes the distance. He attacks, the first for 10 damage targets the knight. In the first strike, the knight parries, bringing his own Weaponry DP down to 2.

Guard 1: 18-10-4-4=0 Second arrow would be used on guard 2 I would assume. :) It says in the third paragraph from the bottom that he had Po Harm of 6 but the armor absorbed 2 points which would equal 4 Po-Harm right? thus HP would drop to 4 not 5.

_________________
"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
StormPatriarch wrote:
dancross wrote:
So, ignoring weapon speed (which I prefer to do for now), there's only two phases in this battle round. Also, We'll allow ranged attacks and general movement to occur before close attacks. So, assume the guards appear (in a town where you're not wanted), and out in the open road they attack to subdue or kill your party. The heroes will act before the enemies in phase D6.

The captain of the guard moves first (D8), and gets a ranged shot off at your ranger type. He rolls a 5, reducing the Dodge DP to 7.

Next, the mystic warrior fires off a "telekinetic bolt" at one of the standard soldiers, and rolls D8+D6, rolling a 10 (cost 5). It bypasses the soldier's resilience, knocking him back, and bring his HP down to 8.

The paladin/ranger shoots his short bow (D6 ability) with a +2 to Po-Harm, getting a 6. He targets the same solider hit by the telekinetic bolt, but his target's leather armor affords some protection (2 pts), so he's down to 5 HP.

The knight fires his composite bow, splitting his attacks 1d8+3 and 1d4+3. The first shot get's a 10. The target rolls his armor getting a 6, so 4 points go through dropping him to 1HP. Then, the knight fires again against the already wounded soldier, results in a 5. The solider rolls his armor, get's a 3, and so he's out of the fight.

The one soldier left charges into the battle, drawing his short sword. I'll say he is within striking range (about 30 feet at the beginning of round), so he closes the distance. He attacks, the first for 10 damage targets the knight. In the first strike, the knight parries, bringing his own Weaponry DP down to 2.

Guard 1: 18-10-4-4=0 Second arrow would be used on guard 2 I would assume. :) It says in the third paragraph from the bottom that he had Po Harm of 6 but the armor absorbed 2 points which would equal 4 Po-Harm right? thus HP would drop to 4 not 5.


Yep, oops. Fixed. Once we analyze this, we'll redo the same battle with extraordinary creatures, again using the group CS vs CS rules.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:59 pm 
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dancross wrote:
It should be good now. Allowing Harm spells to bypass Resilience made a big difference. I hope you see what a difference using standard creatures (rather than fodder) makes in the danger level. That captain took one of your guys down pretty fast. The encounter was "balanced" according the CS rules in the corebook.

What do you think of a PC's ability to "spend" Resilience DP to enhance actions, as limited by current level (see in the intro to my post)? The definition of the word is "ability to recover readily from illness, depression, adversity, or the like; buoyancy", and the score is calculated from resistance and willpower, so it all makes sense to me. I'm trying to avoid changing the published rules as much as possible, and I think this may be a very good balancing factor.


I do understand that standard creatures would make a huge difference over fodder. I was running through it just now and at the end of round 3, the ranger was still standing w/6 toughness left. I used your numbers as I could but even with a graph page up w/ pools I was forgetting who had gone already and what they had done to who. Also choices seem to make a difference. When the capt attacked the ranger in the beginning of round 2, you took it in the 6 pt evade pool instead of his 9 point deflect pool?

Gotta be a better way for us to do this.

I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.

_________________
"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:09 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Quote:
I do understand that standard creatures would make a huge difference over fodder. I was running through it just now and at the end of round 3, the ranger was still standing w/6 toughness left. I used your numbers as I could but even with a graph page up w/ pools I was forgetting who had gone already and what they had done to who. Also choices seem to make a difference. When the capt attacked the ranger in the beginning of round 2, you took it in the 6 pt evade pool instead of his 9 point deflect pool?

Gotta be a better way for us to do this.

I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.


In round two he got smacked for a lot of damage from the captain, blowing through his chosen DP. The ranger didn't ready is axe until round 3, and I thought wouldn't be holding his buckler while using the short bow.

So, I agree 100% choices make a difference too, and good tactics can really change the flow of combat.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:25 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Quote:
I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.


I think the mechanic is 100% within the spirit of the rules. I've allowed "sacrificing" of die-ranks, and the revitalizing action (which IS like 4E healing surges before I'd heard of such a thing). So why not this?

Tap the Self: Once per round, any level-based creature (full-fledged) can transfer points from Resilience to add to any one Ability roll. The maximum number of points "transferred" from the Resilience score to augment an action is limited by level. This should always be a number chosen by the player, not random, and cannot exceed Resilience, unlike dipping into Resilience for casting spells.

level 1 to 2: + 4 to roll
level 3 to 4: + 6 to roll
level 5 to 6: + 8 to roll
level 7 to 8: + 10 to roll
level 9 to 10: + 12 to roll
level 11 to 12: + 14 to roll
level 13 to 14: + 16 to roll
level 15 to 16: +18 to roll
and so on... it can't be used to heal (it can't be used like a 4E healing surge).

Come to think of it, the revitalize action could be revised to actually follow the same structure, transferring from Resilience to ONE single Active DP (not passive). The creature would need to do nothing else for that round, except defend.

level 1 to 2: + 4 to chosen DP
level 3 to 4: + 6 to chosen DP
level 5 to 6: + 8 to chosen DP
level 7 to 8: + 10 to chosen DP
level 9 to 10: + 12 to chosen DP
level 11 to 12: + 14 to chosen DP
level 13 to 14: + 16 to chosen DP
level 15 to 16: +18 to chosen DP
and so on...in this case, it is used to heal ADP.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:39 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Quote:
I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.


I think the mechanic is 100% within the spirit of the rules. I've allowed "sacrificing" of die-ranks, and the revitalizing action (which IS like 4E healing surges before I'd heard of such a thing). So why not this?

Tap the Self: Once per round, any level-based creature (full-fledged) can transfer points from Resilience to add to any one Ability roll. The maximum number of points "transferred" from the Resilience score to augment an action is limited by level. This should always be a number chosen by the player, not random, and cannot exceed Resilience, unlike dipping into Resilience for casting spells.

level 1 to 2: + 4 to roll
level 3 to 4: + 6 to roll
level 5 to 6: + 8 to roll
level 7 to 8: + 10 to roll
level 9 to 10: + 12 to roll
level 11 to 12: + 14 to roll
level 13 to 14: + 16 to roll
level 15 to 16: +18 to roll
and so on... it can't be used to heal (it can't be used like a 4E healing surge).

Come to think of it, the revitalize action could be revised to actually follow the same structure, transferring from Resilience to ONE single Active DP (not passive). The creature would need to do nothing else for that round, except defend.

level 1 to 2: + 4 to chosen DP
level 3 to 4: + 6 to chosen DP
level 5 to 6: + 8 to chosen DP
level 7 to 8: + 10 to chosen DP
level 9 to 10: + 12 to chosen DP
level 11 to 12: + 14 to chosen DP
level 13 to 14: + 16 to chosen DP
level 15 to 16: +18 to chosen DP
and so on...in this case, it is used to heal ADP.

First half still sounds cool... The second half would give a lot less benefit than before. I have trouble using it now so if the benefit goes down to one ADP and a probably a lot less benefit? I am not sure it would be used much...

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"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:41 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Quote:
I do understand that standard creatures would make a huge difference over fodder. I was running through it just now and at the end of round 3, the ranger was still standing w/6 toughness left. I used your numbers as I could but even with a graph page up w/ pools I was forgetting who had gone already and what they had done to who. Also choices seem to make a difference. When the capt attacked the ranger in the beginning of round 2, you took it in the 6 pt evade pool instead of his 9 point deflect pool?

Gotta be a better way for us to do this.

I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.


In round two he got smacked for a lot of damage from the captain, blowing through his chosen DP. The ranger didn't ready is axe until round 3, and I thought wouldn't be holding his buckler while using the short bow.

So, I agree 100% choices make a difference too, and good tactics can really change the flow of combat.

Yeah I noticed the big hit, But since I had stated in my house ruled section at the very top, Bucklers could be strapped to the arm, He would of had it available. I always viewed it as a strapped buckler not a one handed one.

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"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:47 pm 
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StormPatriarch wrote:
dancross wrote:
Quote:
I do understand that standard creatures would make a huge difference over fodder. I was running through it just now and at the end of round 3, the ranger was still standing w/6 toughness left. I used your numbers as I could but even with a graph page up w/ pools I was forgetting who had gone already and what they had done to who. Also choices seem to make a difference. When the capt attacked the ranger in the beginning of round 2, you took it in the 6 pt evade pool instead of his 9 point deflect pool?

Gotta be a better way for us to do this.

I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.


In round two he got smacked for a lot of damage from the captain, blowing through his chosen DP. The ranger didn't ready is axe until round 3, and I thought wouldn't be holding his buckler while using the short bow.

So, I agree 100% choices make a difference too, and good tactics can really change the flow of combat.

Yeah I noticed the big hit, But since I had stated in my house ruled section at the very top, Bucklers could be strapped to the arm, He would of had it available. I always viewed it as a strapped buckler not a one handed one.


Oh, okay, sorry I missed that.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:54 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Oh, okay, sorry I missed that.


Its all good. :)

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"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:42 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Quote:
I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.


I think the mechanic is 100% within the spirit of the rules. I've allowed "sacrificing" of die-ranks, and the revitalizing action (which IS like 4E healing surges before I'd heard of such a thing). So why not this?

Tap the Self: Once per round, any level-based creature (full-fledged) can transfer points from Resilience to add to any one Ability roll. The maximum number of points "transferred" from the Resilience score to augment an action is limited by level. This should always be a number chosen by the player, not random, and cannot exceed Resilience, unlike dipping into Resilience for casting spells.

level 1 to 2: + 4 to roll
level 3 to 4: + 6 to roll
level 5 to 6: + 8 to roll
level 7 to 8: + 10 to roll
level 9 to 10: + 12 to roll
level 11 to 12: + 14 to roll
level 13 to 14: + 16 to roll
level 15 to 16: +18 to roll
and so on... it can't be used to heal (it can't be used like a 4E healing surge).

Interesting thread. This is a neat concept--having some pool or reserves that can be expended in various ways, as well as protecting you from certain kinds of dangers. I know you want to keep Resilience, so how about this revision:

1. Resilience = Resistance + Endurance + Willpower.
2. All Harm spells bypass Resilience and armor, and directly affect Toughness.
3. Resilience pool can be used to absorb damage from poison, environmental conditions, falling damage, and non-Harm spells.
4. If a spellcaster is the target of a spell (Harm or otherwise), and if he has a Specialization in the same power source as the spell, he can roll a "save" against the spell. He rolls his Specialization and (if posessed) Mastery dice, and subtracts the total from the spell points directed at him. The difference (if any) is applied to Toughness (for Harm spells) or Resilience (for other spells).

This revision eliminates the huge Resilience of spell-casters, while still giving them a defense against magic that they are familiar with. Because of the direct application of Harm to Toughness, perhaps Toughness needs to be bumped up a little? Maybe Endurance x 2 + Resistance + Willpower?


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:
Quote:
I do like the buying action thing. Not sure how it will balance but I would like to try it out soon.


I think the mechanic is 100% within the spirit of the rules. I've allowed "sacrificing" of die-ranks, and the revitalizing action (which IS like 4E healing surges before I'd heard of such a thing). So why not this?

Tap the Self: Once per round, any level-based creature (full-fledged) can transfer points from Resilience to add to any one Ability roll. The maximum number of points "transferred" from the Resilience score to augment an action is limited by level. This should always be a number chosen by the player, not random, and cannot exceed Resilience, unlike dipping into Resilience for casting spells.

level 1 to 2: + 4 to roll
level 3 to 4: + 6 to roll
level 5 to 6: + 8 to roll
level 7 to 8: + 10 to roll
level 9 to 10: + 12 to roll
level 11 to 12: + 14 to roll
level 13 to 14: + 16 to roll
level 15 to 16: +18 to roll
and so on... it can't be used to heal (it can't be used like a 4E healing surge).

Interesting thread. This is a neat concept--having some pool or reserves that can be expended in various ways, as well as protecting you from certain kinds of dangers. I know you want to keep Resilience, so how about this revision:

1. Resilience = Resistance + Endurance + Willpower.
2. All Harm spells bypass Resilience and armor, and directly affect Toughness.
3. Resilience pool can be used to absorb damage from poison, environmental conditions, falling damage, and non-Harm spells.
4. If a spellcaster is the target of a spell (Harm or otherwise), and if he has a Specialization in the same power source as the spell, he can roll a "save" against the spell. He rolls his Specialization and (if posessed) Mastery dice, and subtracts the total from the spell points directed at him. The difference (if any) is applied to Toughness (for Harm spells) or Resilience (for other spells).

This revision eliminates the huge Resilience of spell-casters, while still giving them a defense against magic that they are familiar with. Because of the direct application of Harm to Toughness, perhaps Toughness needs to be bumped up a little? Maybe Endurance x 2 + Resistance + Willpower?


I like it! This is better, and I'll have to give it a test. Yes, with the addition of "tapping" Resilience DP for extra action points, I think we've arrived at what is best, and not really a departure from the published rules. And this doesn't preclude opposed rolls against certain effects in rounds of spell maintenance (which is already called out in the rulebook).

I just ran a session for some friends last night, using the rules with the "All Harm spells bypass Resilience and armor, and directly affect Toughness" and it did not prove too unbalancing. I kept the monster Resilience scores, but again allowed Harm spells to go straight to their HP (remember monsters have only a single hitpoint score and a Resilience score for defense).


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:08 pm 
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Quote:
1. Resilience = Resistance + Endurance + Willpower.
2. All Harm spells bypass Resilience and armor, and directly affect Toughness.
3. Resilience pool can be used to absorb damage from poison, environmental conditions, falling damage, and non-Harm spells.
4. If a spellcaster is the target of a spell (Harm or otherwise), and if he has a Specialization in the same power source as the spell, he can roll a "save" against the spell. He rolls his Specialization and (if posessed) Mastery dice, and subtracts the total from the spell points directed at him. The difference (if any) is applied to Toughness (for Harm spells) or Resilience (for other spells).

This revision eliminates the huge Resilience of spell-casters, while still giving them a defense against magic that they are familiar with. Because of the direct application of Harm to Toughness, perhaps Toughness needs to be bumped up a little? Maybe Endurance x 2 + Resistance + Willpower?

The only thing I don't like about this is that it essentially turns all Harm spells into "Magic Missle" spells (auto-hit). There is no way to "save" against them. It could get brutal fast at higher levels...


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:28 pm 
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dunbruha wrote:
Quote:
1. Resilience = Resistance + Endurance + Willpower.
2. All Harm spells bypass Resilience and armor, and directly affect Toughness.
3. Resilience pool can be used to absorb damage from poison, environmental conditions, falling damage, and non-Harm spells.
4. If a spellcaster is the target of a spell (Harm or otherwise), and if he has a Specialization in the same power source as the spell, he can roll a "save" against the spell. He rolls his Specialization and (if posessed) Mastery dice, and subtracts the total from the spell points directed at him. The difference (if any) is applied to Toughness (for Harm spells) or Resilience (for other spells).

This revision eliminates the huge Resilience of spell-casters, while still giving them a defense against magic that they are familiar with. Because of the direct application of Harm to Toughness, perhaps Toughness needs to be bumped up a little? Maybe Endurance x 2 + Resistance + Willpower?

The only thing I don't like about this is that it essentially turns all Harm spells into "Magic Missle" spells (auto-hit). There is no way to "save" against them. It could get brutal fast at higher levels...


Okay. Make the spell caster roll a difficulty check, like any other spell, according to the normal rules basing difficulty on range alone.

Creature within line of sight: roll vs. 2D4
Area Effect: vs. 2D6

Failing means no spell points are spent, but the Harm spell fizzles.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:37 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Okay. Make the spell caster roll a difficulty check, like any other spell, according to the normal rules basing difficulty on range alone.

Creature within line of sight: roll vs. 2D4
Area Effect: vs. 2D6

Failing means no spell points are spent, but the Harm spell fizzles.

True, but at higher levels the difficulty check is almost meaningless. Ideally, the save/check should scale with the defender (because the spell points are already scaling with the attacker).


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:01 am 
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dunbruha wrote:
True, but at higher levels the difficulty check is almost meaningless. Ideally, the save/check should scale with the defender (because the spell points are already scaling with the attacker).


Try this. Go back to original rules, once again. Apply Resilience versus Harm, but Harm spells do double damage versus Resilience until that score is depleted. This accomplishes a few things. It removes the "magic missile" syndrome, and yet makes arcanists who like to pick up damaging spells useful in weakening creatures...so other spellcasters can affect their enemies with other Effect types.

Threat points exceeding Resilience the first time is halved, and after that damage is calculated normally (by the regular ability branch roll).

It also allows A) even more Defense Pools, or B) more dice rolling in a session.

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:18 am 
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dancross wrote:
Threat points exceeding Resilience the first time is halved, and after that damage is calculated normally (by the regular ability branch roll).

Not sure I follow this...

------------------

In the meantime, here is yet another permutation:

1. Resilience = Resistance + Endurance + Willpower. [removes Arcanum but adds Endurance. This removes the huge Resilience of spellcasters]
2. All spells affect Resilience first, then affect Toughness or other Ability. [same as original rules]
3. If a spellcaster is the target of a spell, and if he has a Specialization in the same power source as the spell, he can roll a "save" against the spell. He rolls his Specialization and (if posessed) Mastery dice, and subtracts the total from the spell points directed at him. The difference (if any) is applied to Resilience. [allows spellcasters a defense against magic that they are familiar with]

Because the Resilience pool increases with level (if the player chooses to, that is), this allows a scaling defense.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:54 am 
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dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:
Threat points exceeding Resilience the first time is halved, and after that damage is calculated normally (by the regular ability branch roll).

Not sure I follow this...

------------------

In the meantime, here is yet another permutation:

1. Resilience = Resistance + Endurance + Willpower. [removes Arcanum but adds Endurance. This removes the huge Resilience of spellcasters]
2. All spells affect Resilience first, then affect Toughness or other Ability. [same as original rules]
3. If a spellcaster is the target of a spell, and if he has a Specialization in the same power source as the spell, he can roll a "save" against the spell. He rolls his Specialization and (if posessed) Mastery dice, and subtracts the total from the spell points directed at him. The difference (if any) is applied to Resilience. [allows spellcasters a defense against magic that they are familiar with]

Because the Resilience pool increases with level (if the player chooses to, that is), this allows a scaling defense.


That works.

Meanwhile we can put out supplments which detail optional rules for less "abstract" defenses against magic and non-physical harm.


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 Post subject: Re: My PC party rendered here for testing:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:03 pm 
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Hi there, This is The Knight/Paladin :D This battle is interesting. However, the fact that I have Mantle and Heal to interfere with the success of the Captain seems to have been missed :P With the mystics bolts going straight to toughnesss, I don't tink the battle would go quite this way.

The ability to use resilance to reinforce a roll Is very interesting. I like the increased options it gives me :D The cost (loss of PD needs to be tested to see if it works)

Hyfaidd
Squire
(Working an becoming knight)


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