Number of spells known
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Number of spells known
On p 40, it states that "Picking up ranks or new Specializations at higher levels increases the maximum number of spells known..." It also says "the maximum number of spells known increases by one with every level of experience achieved." So if a character goes up a level and also adds a rank to a Specialization, is the maximum number of spells known increased by 2?
Re: Number of spells known
It depends on the rank of the Specialization. If he added a D4 rank, and went up a level, the max number of spells known increases by 3. If he adds a D6 rank, it increases by 4, and if a D8, then by 5, etc.dunbruha wrote:On p 40, it states that "Picking up ranks or new Specializations at higher levels increases the maximum number of spells known..." It also says "the maximum number of spells known increases by one with every level of experience achieved." So if a character goes up a level and also adds a rank to a Specialization, is the maximum number of spells known increased by 2?
Or, if he just increases his existing Specialization by a rank, say from D6 to D8, then his max number of spells increases by 2 (because the 3 slots granted from the D6 is already factored in).
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Re: Number of spells known
That reminds me of a mostly unrelated question I had about spells.
Suppose you wanted to let a player character have a "spell-like ability"...that is, an ability that duplicates exactly the effects of a spell but isn't actually a "spell". It's an inborn or otherwise instinctual ability, and the character has no magical knowledge or Arcanum skill.
A) How might spell points and Arcanum rolls work if the character had no Arcanum skill?
B) How many character points might such an ability cost?
Suppose you wanted to let a player character have a "spell-like ability"...that is, an ability that duplicates exactly the effects of a spell but isn't actually a "spell". It's an inborn or otherwise instinctual ability, and the character has no magical knowledge or Arcanum skill.
A) How might spell points and Arcanum rolls work if the character had no Arcanum skill?
B) How many character points might such an ability cost?
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Re: Number of spells known
A)I would guess resilience would be your pool of SPs and maybe willpower for the effect roll?mythfish wrote:That reminds me of a mostly unrelated question I had about spells.
Suppose you wanted to let a player character have a "spell-like ability"...that is, an ability that duplicates exactly the effects of a spell but isn't actually a "spell". It's an inborn or otherwise instinctual ability, and the character has no magical knowledge or Arcanum skill.
A) How might spell points and Arcanum rolls work if the character had no Arcanum skill?
B) How many character points might such an ability cost?
B) I would say it depends on power of the ability but no less than 2 cps.
Def curious what dancross will say on this one.
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Re: Number of spells known
But this couldn't happen, because you can only advance one die-rank per level, right?dancross wrote:It depends on the rank of the Specialization. If he added a D4 rank, and went up a level, the max number of spells known increases by 3. If he adds a D6 rank, it increases by 4, and if a D8, then by 5, etc.
So for each new die-rank of a Specialization or Mastery, you get 2 new spells known (plus the 1 for level increase)?dancross wrote:Or, if he just increases his existing Specialization by a rank, say from D6 to D8, then his max number of spells increases by 2 (because the 3 slots granted from the D6 is already factored in).
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That brings up a related question: the book states: "a player character cannot purchase more than one increase to an ability's rank value, including Specialization or Mastery dice." "However, he can purchase any number of new abilities, including Specializations and Masteries."
So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?
Re: Number of spells known
I'd say, yes resilience would be a great pool of SPs (it acts as a backup pool for regular spellcasters). The cost would be 2 CP per rank of the single power, and it would subsume the ability to tap into the relevant power source. So, for example, the Innate Power of "Fire Breath", would cost 2 CPs per rank of Harm Effect, tap into the Primordial power source, and it's range and effectiveness would equal the die-rank. There would be no option to specialize in such an innate power, but that doesn't preclude adding layers of effectiveness. In other words, add up to two more dice to the power's ADC, but don't call them "specialization and mastery". Just call the extra dice "extra power". Make it simple. Thus, A 3D6 fire breath would cost 18 CPs.StormPatriarch wrote:A)I would guess resilience would be your pool of SPs and maybe willpower for the effect roll?mythfish wrote:That reminds me of a mostly unrelated question I had about spells.
Suppose you wanted to let a player character have a "spell-like ability"...that is, an ability that duplicates exactly the effects of a spell but isn't actually a "spell". It's an inborn or otherwise instinctual ability, and the character has no magical knowledge or Arcanum skill.
A) How might spell points and Arcanum rolls work if the character had no Arcanum skill?
B) How many character points might such an ability cost?
B) I would say it depends on power of the ability but no less than 2 cps.
Def curious what dancross will say on this one.
Also, a spellcaster specialized in the same power source as the "innate power" description could tap into that power using the Arcanum ADC, but and substitute either the innate power rank or the specialization die-rank, whichever is higher. Mastery probably wouldn't apply, since the innate power is never a spell, per se.
Re: Number of spells known
Your max known spells is the cumulative MRV of the ability tree divided in half. If you add ranks, that increases that number. Then add +1 per level.dancross wrote:It depends on the rank of the Specialization. If he added a D4 rank, and went up a level, the max number of spells known increases by 3. If he adds a D6 rank, it increases by 4, and if a D8, then by 5, etc.
Well...yeah...ya caught me! Sometimes I break my own rules.dunbruha wrote: But this couldn't happen, because you can only advance one die-rank per level, right?
So for each new die-rank of a Specialization or Mastery, you get 2 new spells known (plus the 1 for level increase)?dancross wrote:Or, if he just increases his existing Specialization by a rank, say from D6 to D8, then his max number of spells increases by 2 (because the 3 slots granted from the D6 is already factored in).
I'd allow those two increases.So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?
Re: Number of spells known
??? Not sure what you mean. There are 3 increases in this example...dancross wrote:I'd allow those two increases.So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?
This brings up a question. One of the common weaknesses of classless game systems is that PCs can become over-specialized in a particular skill, by building that one skill to the exclusion of others. It seems to me that a strength of this system is that it prevents this, because you can only advance one die-rank per level. If a character can increase die-ranks in Basic, Specialization, and Mastery all at the same time, do characters become unbalanced?
Re: Number of spells known
Ooh, sorry about that, I didn't see that you brought the basic rank up to D8 at first (reading too fast with toddler hanging on my arm saying, 'daddy, daddy'...very distractingdunbruha wrote:??? Not sure what you mean. There are 3 increases in this example...dancross wrote:I'd allow those two increases.So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?
This brings up a question. One of the common weaknesses of classless game systems is that PCs can become over-specialized in a particular skill, by building that one skill to the exclusion of others. It seems to me that a strength of this system is that it prevents this, because you can only advance one die-rank per level. If a character can increase die-ranks in Basic, Specialization, and Mastery all at the same time, do characters become unbalanced?
So exactly as written in the book, you could not increase both the basic and existing specialization up one rank. You could increase an existing rank up one and add the mastery, however.
Re: Number of spells known
Hmm... OK. Now suppose he was at Animal Handling D6. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D4 > Eagles D4? (i.e., adding a new die-rank and a new Specialization and a new Mastery in the same ability). By the book, it seems like he could. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I am in favor of encouraging broad abilities. What I thought the book meant was only one increase (of any kind) per ability per level. You are allowing multiple increases in the same ability. Has this been OK, or am I just imagining problems that don't exist?dancross wrote:So exactly as written in the book, you could not increase both the basic and existing specialization up one rank. You could increase an existing rank up one and add the mastery, however.
Re: Number of spells known
Actually, on page 6 there is a bit of clarification. It says, "After character creation, no single ability die can be increased more than one rank per level of advancement". You can do multiple increases in the same ability, just not twice to the same ability die tier.dunbruha wrote:Hmm... OK. Now suppose he was at Animal Handling D6. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D4 > Eagles D4? (i.e., adding a new die-rank and a new Specialization and a new Mastery in the same ability). By the book, it seems like he could. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I am in favor of encouraging broad abilities. What I thought the book meant was only one increase (of any kind) per ability per level. You are allowing multiple increases in the same ability. Has this been OK, or am I just imagining problems that don't exist?dancross wrote:So exactly as written in the book, you could not increase both the basic and existing specialization up one rank. You could increase an existing rank up one and add the mastery, however.
Hmmm...the way it's written does leave it open to interpretation. So, if one were to rule that you can only pick one rank within an ability branch or tree, the rules would seem to support that. Likewise, if you were to do things as I do, the rules support such by omission of contrary rules.
I think I'll include this in the FAQ.
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Re: Number of spells known
So how about in the following cases:dancross wrote: Actually, on page 6 there is a bit of clarification. It says, "After character creation, no single ability die can be increased more than one rank per level of advancement". You can do multiple increases in the same ability, just not twice to the same ability die tier.
Hmmm...the way it's written does leave it open to interpretation. So, if one were to rule that you can only pick one rank within an ability branch or tree, the rules would seem to support that. Likewise, if you were to do things as I do, the rules support such by omission of contrary rules.
The PC has the following weapon skills when he lvls up to 5th and can spend 6 CPs (Current lvl + 2 in Character points) to upgrade his character:
melee weapons(MW) d8>Swords d6
>Axes d4
Can he raise it in the following ways:
A) MW d10>Swords d6>Short Sword d4
>Axes d4
He raises the rank of his Melee Weapons and adds the mastery of short swords.
B) MW d10>Swords d8>Short Sword d4
>Axes d4
He raises the rank of his Melee Weapons and Swords. Adds mastery of short swords.
C) MW d10>Swords d6>Short Sword d4
>Axes d6
He raises the rank of his Melee Weapons and Axes.Adds mastery of Short Swords.
D)MW d10>Swords d8
>Axes D6
He raises the ranks of Melee Weapons,Swords & Axes.
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"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber
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Re: Number of spells known
'No single ability die' seems to say that you can increase each die in an ADC once per level...dancross wrote:Actually, on page 6 there is a bit of clarification. It says, "After character creation, no single ability die can be increased more than one rank per level of advancement". You can do multiple increases in the same ability, just not twice to the same ability die tier.
Hmmm...the way it's written does leave it open to interpretation. So, if one were to rule that you can only pick one rank within an ability branch or tree, the rules would seem to support that. Likewise, if you were to do things as I do, the rules support such by omission of contrary rules.
I think I'll include this in the FAQ.
However, it sounds like you're saying that an ADC can only be increased by one rank per level... I.e. if you have:
Melee>Swords>Long Sword
You could increase the long sword mastery and gain a new mastery (since they follow different ADCs) OR
You could increase the swords specialization and learn a new specialization (but not increase or take a new mastery based on swords) OR
You could increase your melee and that's it for the ability (no specializations or masteries, since they all use melee).
I think it depends on how quickly you want to allow progression... I personally would suggest the one die per ADC per level, since there are still ways to game the system to boost your defense pools, but it prevents those spontaneous eruptions of knowledge by increasing all (or some) of the dice in your ADC... After all, there's a big difference between 3D4 and 3D6 when it comes to rolling harm...
However, if you want characters to be able to quickly fill in those gaps that they see from character creation or potentially change character concepts mid-way in the game (multi-class), use the increase each die once per level route...
Re: Number of spells known
This is what I thought it meant when I first read it. And I agree that it just seems "right" to only be able to slowly increase in a particular ability, instead of suddenly jumping up in all 3 dice. But I haven't played yet, so I don't have any experience to judge how it really works in game play.kragar00 wrote:I think it depends on how quickly you want to allow progression... I personally would suggest the one die per ADC per level, since there are still ways to game the system to boost your defense pools, but it prevents those spontaneous eruptions of knowledge by increasing all (or some) of the dice in your ADC... After all, there's a big difference between 3D4 and 3D6 when it comes to rolling harm...
Re: Number of spells known
Listen to Kragar, for he is wise. He is my principal playtester, and probably has more hours in actual game play than I do. He will also be running the game at Gen Con this year!dunbruha wrote:This is what I thought it meant when I first read it. And I agree that it just seems "right" to only be able to slowly increase in a particular ability, instead of suddenly jumping up in all 3 dice. But I haven't played yet, so I don't have any experience to judge how it really works in game play.kragar00 wrote:I think it depends on how quickly you want to allow progression... I personally would suggest the one die per ADC per level, since there are still ways to game the system to boost your defense pools, but it prevents those spontaneous eruptions of knowledge by increasing all (or some) of the dice in your ADC... After all, there's a big difference between 3D4 and 3D6 when it comes to rolling harm...
He ran a long playtest with characters actually leveling up over time. I've been unable to play a regular game for over five years, so all of my games were "one shot wonders", with various groups of friends. I KNOW the ERP level based experience point system works well because I've been using it since waaaay before I co-authored Eldritch, but my rules on limits on rank advancement are entirely based on Kragar's feedback. So if I sound somewhat ambiguous on those guidelines, it's because I never used them.
Re: Number of spells known
Man, I wish I could be there.dancross wrote:He will also be running the game at Gen Con this year!
Re: Number of spells known
Heh, me too! But I've got a new baby due any day now, and between full-time school, work, and my 2 year old girl, I'll have my hands fulldunbruha wrote:Man, I wish I could be there.dancross wrote:He will also be running the game at Gen Con this year!
Re: Number of spells known
Wow, congrats and good luck with the new arrival! I'm surprised you have any time to post as it is. I guess I better get in as many questions as I can, because you will soon be even busier! (and believe me, two is much more time-consuming than one...) (fun though)dancross wrote:Heh, me too! But I've got a new baby due any day now, and between full-time school, work, and my 2 year old girl, I'll have my hands full
Re: Number of spells known
My wife is nice and let's me get some posting in each day. When the baby arrives, all bets are off, but I'll continue to support this game somehow, in any way I can, for as long as it lives.dunbruha wrote:Wow, congrats and good luck with the new arrival! I'm surprised you have any time to post as it is. I guess I better get in as many questions as I can, because you will soon be even busier! (and believe me, two is much more time-consuming than one...) (fun though)dancross wrote:Heh, me too! But I've got a new baby due any day now, and between full-time school, work, and my 2 year old girl, I'll have my hands full