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 Post subject: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:52 pm 
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On p 40, it states that "Picking up ranks or new Specializations at higher levels increases the maximum number of spells known..." It also says "the maximum number of spells known increases by one with every level of experience achieved." So if a character goes up a level and also adds a rank to a Specialization, is the maximum number of spells known increased by 2?


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:58 pm 
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dunbruha wrote:
On p 40, it states that "Picking up ranks or new Specializations at higher levels increases the maximum number of spells known..." It also says "the maximum number of spells known increases by one with every level of experience achieved." So if a character goes up a level and also adds a rank to a Specialization, is the maximum number of spells known increased by 2?


It depends on the rank of the Specialization. If he added a D4 rank, and went up a level, the max number of spells known increases by 3. If he adds a D6 rank, it increases by 4, and if a D8, then by 5, etc.

Or, if he just increases his existing Specialization by a rank, say from D6 to D8, then his max number of spells increases by 2 (because the 3 slots granted from the D6 is already factored in).


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:13 pm 
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That reminds me of a mostly unrelated question I had about spells.

Suppose you wanted to let a player character have a "spell-like ability"...that is, an ability that duplicates exactly the effects of a spell but isn't actually a "spell". It's an inborn or otherwise instinctual ability, and the character has no magical knowledge or Arcanum skill.

A) How might spell points and Arcanum rolls work if the character had no Arcanum skill?
B) How many character points might such an ability cost?

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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:46 am 
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mythfish wrote:
That reminds me of a mostly unrelated question I had about spells.

Suppose you wanted to let a player character have a "spell-like ability"...that is, an ability that duplicates exactly the effects of a spell but isn't actually a "spell". It's an inborn or otherwise instinctual ability, and the character has no magical knowledge or Arcanum skill.

A) How might spell points and Arcanum rolls work if the character had no Arcanum skill?
B) How many character points might such an ability cost?


A)I would guess resilience would be your pool of SPs and maybe willpower for the effect roll?

B) I would say it depends on power of the ability but no less than 2 cps.

Def curious what dancross will say on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:38 pm 
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dancross wrote:
It depends on the rank of the Specialization. If he added a D4 rank, and went up a level, the max number of spells known increases by 3. If he adds a D6 rank, it increases by 4, and if a D8, then by 5, etc.

But this couldn't happen, because you can only advance one die-rank per level, right?

dancross wrote:
Or, if he just increases his existing Specialization by a rank, say from D6 to D8, then his max number of spells increases by 2 (because the 3 slots granted from the D6 is already factored in).

So for each new die-rank of a Specialization or Mastery, you get 2 new spells known (plus the 1 for level increase)?

-------------------------

That brings up a related question: the book states: "a player character cannot purchase more than one increase to an ability's rank value, including Specialization or Mastery dice." "However, he can purchase any number of new abilities, including Specializations and Masteries."

So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:19 pm 
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StormPatriarch wrote:
mythfish wrote:
That reminds me of a mostly unrelated question I had about spells.

Suppose you wanted to let a player character have a "spell-like ability"...that is, an ability that duplicates exactly the effects of a spell but isn't actually a "spell". It's an inborn or otherwise instinctual ability, and the character has no magical knowledge or Arcanum skill.

A) How might spell points and Arcanum rolls work if the character had no Arcanum skill?
B) How many character points might such an ability cost?


A)I would guess resilience would be your pool of SPs and maybe willpower for the effect roll?

B) I would say it depends on power of the ability but no less than 2 cps.

Def curious what dancross will say on this one.


I'd say, yes resilience would be a great pool of SPs (it acts as a backup pool for regular spellcasters). The cost would be 2 CP per rank of the single power, and it would subsume the ability to tap into the relevant power source. So, for example, the Innate Power of "Fire Breath", would cost 2 CPs per rank of Harm Effect, tap into the Primordial power source, and it's range and effectiveness would equal the die-rank. There would be no option to specialize in such an innate power, but that doesn't preclude adding layers of effectiveness. In other words, add up to two more dice to the power's ADC, but don't call them "specialization and mastery". Just call the extra dice "extra power". Make it simple. Thus, A 3D6 fire breath would cost 18 CPs.

Also, a spellcaster specialized in the same power source as the "innate power" description could tap into that power using the Arcanum ADC, but and substitute either the innate power rank or the specialization die-rank, whichever is higher. Mastery probably wouldn't apply, since the innate power is never a spell, per se.


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:28 pm 
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dancross wrote:
It depends on the rank of the Specialization. If he added a D4 rank, and went up a level, the max number of spells known increases by 3. If he adds a D6 rank, it increases by 4, and if a D8, then by 5, etc.

dunbruha wrote:
But this couldn't happen, because you can only advance one die-rank per level, right?



Well...yeah...ya caught me! Sometimes I break my own rules. ;-)


dancross wrote:
Or, if he just increases his existing Specialization by a rank, say from D6 to D8, then his max number of spells increases by 2 (because the 3 slots granted from the D6 is already factored in).

So for each new die-rank of a Specialization or Mastery, you get 2 new spells known (plus the 1 for level increase)?


Your max known spells is the cumulative MRV of the ability tree divided in half. If you add ranks, that increases that number. Then add +1 per level.

Quote:
So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?


I'd allow those two increases.


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:13 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Quote:
So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?


I'd allow those two increases.

??? Not sure what you mean. There are 3 increases in this example...

This brings up a question. One of the common weaknesses of classless game systems is that PCs can become over-specialized in a particular skill, by building that one skill to the exclusion of others. It seems to me that a strength of this system is that it prevents this, because you can only advance one die-rank per level. If a character can increase die-ranks in Basic, Specialization, and Mastery all at the same time, do characters become unbalanced?


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:36 pm 
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dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:
Quote:
So, if a character had, say, Animal Handling D6 > Birds D4, and went up a level. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D6 > Eagles D4? or just an increase in any one of those?


I'd allow those two increases.

??? Not sure what you mean. There are 3 increases in this example...

This brings up a question. One of the common weaknesses of classless game systems is that PCs can become over-specialized in a particular skill, by building that one skill to the exclusion of others. It seems to me that a strength of this system is that it prevents this, because you can only advance one die-rank per level. If a character can increase die-ranks in Basic, Specialization, and Mastery all at the same time, do characters become unbalanced?


Ooh, sorry about that, I didn't see that you brought the basic rank up to D8 at first (reading too fast with toddler hanging on my arm saying, 'daddy, daddy'...very distracting ;-)

So exactly as written in the book, you could not increase both the basic and existing specialization up one rank. You could increase an existing rank up one and add the mastery, however.


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:12 pm 
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dancross wrote:
So exactly as written in the book, you could not increase both the basic and existing specialization up one rank. You could increase an existing rank up one and add the mastery, however.

Hmm... OK. Now suppose he was at Animal Handling D6. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D4 > Eagles D4? (i.e., adding a new die-rank and a new Specialization and a new Mastery in the same ability). By the book, it seems like he could. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I am in favor of encouraging broad abilities. What I thought the book meant was only one increase (of any kind) per ability per level. You are allowing multiple increases in the same ability. Has this been OK, or am I just imagining problems that don't exist? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:42 pm 
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dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:
So exactly as written in the book, you could not increase both the basic and existing specialization up one rank. You could increase an existing rank up one and add the mastery, however.

Hmm... OK. Now suppose he was at Animal Handling D6. Could he go to Animal Handling D8 > Birds D4 > Eagles D4? (i.e., adding a new die-rank and a new Specialization and a new Mastery in the same ability). By the book, it seems like he could. I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but I am in favor of encouraging broad abilities. What I thought the book meant was only one increase (of any kind) per ability per level. You are allowing multiple increases in the same ability. Has this been OK, or am I just imagining problems that don't exist? :?


Actually, on page 6 there is a bit of clarification. It says, "After character creation, no single ability die can be increased more than one rank per level of advancement". You can do multiple increases in the same ability, just not twice to the same ability die tier.

Hmmm...the way it's written does leave it open to interpretation. So, if one were to rule that you can only pick one rank within an ability branch or tree, the rules would seem to support that. Likewise, if you were to do things as I do, the rules support such by omission of contrary rules.

I think I'll include this in the FAQ.


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:07 am 
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dancross wrote:
Actually, on page 6 there is a bit of clarification. It says, "After character creation, no single ability die can be increased more than one rank per level of advancement". You can do multiple increases in the same ability, just not twice to the same ability die tier.

Hmmm...the way it's written does leave it open to interpretation. So, if one were to rule that you can only pick one rank within an ability branch or tree, the rules would seem to support that. Likewise, if you were to do things as I do, the rules support such by omission of contrary rules.


So how about in the following cases:

The PC has the following weapon skills when he lvls up to 5th and can spend 6 CPs (Current lvl + 2 in Character points) to upgrade his character:

melee weapons(MW) d8>Swords d6
>Axes d4

Can he raise it in the following ways:

A) MW d10>Swords d6>Short Sword d4
>Axes d4
He raises the rank of his Melee Weapons and adds the mastery of short swords.

B) MW d10>Swords d8>Short Sword d4
>Axes d4
He raises the rank of his Melee Weapons and Swords. Adds mastery of short swords.

C) MW d10>Swords d6>Short Sword d4
>Axes d6
He raises the rank of his Melee Weapons and Axes.Adds mastery of Short Swords.

D)MW d10>Swords d8
>Axes D6
He raises the ranks of Melee Weapons,Swords & Axes.

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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:32 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Actually, on page 6 there is a bit of clarification. It says, "After character creation, no single ability die can be increased more than one rank per level of advancement". You can do multiple increases in the same ability, just not twice to the same ability die tier.

Hmmm...the way it's written does leave it open to interpretation. So, if one were to rule that you can only pick one rank within an ability branch or tree, the rules would seem to support that. Likewise, if you were to do things as I do, the rules support such by omission of contrary rules.

I think I'll include this in the FAQ.

'No single ability die' seems to say that you can increase each die in an ADC once per level...
However, it sounds like you're saying that an ADC can only be increased by one rank per level... I.e. if you have:

Melee>Swords>Long Sword

You could increase the long sword mastery and gain a new mastery (since they follow different ADCs) OR

You could increase the swords specialization and learn a new specialization (but not increase or take a new mastery based on swords) OR

You could increase your melee and that's it for the ability (no specializations or masteries, since they all use melee).

I think it depends on how quickly you want to allow progression... I personally would suggest the one die per ADC per level, since there are still ways to game the system to boost your defense pools, but it prevents those spontaneous eruptions of knowledge by increasing all (or some) of the dice in your ADC... After all, there's a big difference between 3D4 and 3D6 when it comes to rolling harm...

However, if you want characters to be able to quickly fill in those gaps that they see from character creation or potentially change character concepts mid-way in the game (multi-class), use the increase each die once per level route...


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:43 pm 
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kragar00 wrote:
I think it depends on how quickly you want to allow progression... I personally would suggest the one die per ADC per level, since there are still ways to game the system to boost your defense pools, but it prevents those spontaneous eruptions of knowledge by increasing all (or some) of the dice in your ADC... After all, there's a big difference between 3D4 and 3D6 when it comes to rolling harm...

This is what I thought it meant when I first read it. And I agree that it just seems "right" to only be able to slowly increase in a particular ability, instead of suddenly jumping up in all 3 dice. But I haven't played yet, so I don't have any experience to judge how it really works in game play.


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:21 pm 
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dunbruha wrote:
kragar00 wrote:
I think it depends on how quickly you want to allow progression... I personally would suggest the one die per ADC per level, since there are still ways to game the system to boost your defense pools, but it prevents those spontaneous eruptions of knowledge by increasing all (or some) of the dice in your ADC... After all, there's a big difference between 3D4 and 3D6 when it comes to rolling harm...

This is what I thought it meant when I first read it. And I agree that it just seems "right" to only be able to slowly increase in a particular ability, instead of suddenly jumping up in all 3 dice. But I haven't played yet, so I don't have any experience to judge how it really works in game play.


Listen to Kragar, for he is wise. He is my principal playtester, and probably has more hours in actual game play than I do. He will also be running the game at Gen Con this year! 8)

He ran a long playtest with characters actually leveling up over time. I've been unable to play a regular game for over five years, so all of my games were "one shot wonders", with various groups of friends. I KNOW the ERP level based experience point system works well because I've been using it since waaaay before I co-authored Eldritch, but my rules on limits on rank advancement are entirely based on Kragar's feedback. So if I sound somewhat ambiguous on those guidelines, it's because I never used them.


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:53 pm 
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dancross wrote:
He will also be running the game at Gen Con this year! 8)

Man, I wish I could be there. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:54 pm 
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dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:
He will also be running the game at Gen Con this year! 8)

Man, I wish I could be there. :(


Heh, me too! But I've got a new baby due any day now, and between full-time school, work, and my 2 year old girl, I'll have my hands full :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:08 pm 
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dancross wrote:
Heh, me too! But I've got a new baby due any day now, and between full-time school, work, and my 2 year old girl, I'll have my hands full :lol:

Wow, congrats and good luck with the new arrival! I'm surprised you have any time to post as it is. I guess I better get in as many questions as I can, because you will soon be even busier! (and believe me, two is much more time-consuming than one...) (fun though)


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 Post subject: Re: Number of spells known
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:26 pm 
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dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:
Heh, me too! But I've got a new baby due any day now, and between full-time school, work, and my 2 year old girl, I'll have my hands full :lol:

Wow, congrats and good luck with the new arrival! I'm surprised you have any time to post as it is. I guess I better get in as many questions as I can, because you will soon be even busier! (and believe me, two is much more time-consuming than one...) (fun though)


My wife is nice and let's me get some posting in each day. When the baby arrives, all bets are off, but I'll continue to support this game somehow, in any way I can, for as long as it lives.


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