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 Post subject: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:25 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am
Posts: 58
Am i imagining it or do epic monsters like Dragons, Ogres, Trolls never have DP's?

I see it says that Fully Fledged NPC's do, but not monsters.

Again i like the idea that monsters don't have DP's for speeds sake, but this leads to a wierd situation where only Fully Fledged NPC's can dodge, evade etc but not world eating monsters.. :shock:

Imho, it should either be ONLY pc's have it, or EVERYONE, purely for internal consistancy fi nothing else.

That way you don't end up with your players going "so, the evil mercenary can evade and block, but not the gigantic epic dragon of doom!?". :oops:

Disclaimer- I am in no way 100% down with all the monster creation rules so if i have missed something please just say. :)


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Ze Groupe wrote:
Again i like the idea that monsters don't have DP's for speeds sake, but this leads to a wierd situation where only Fully Fledged NPC's can dodge, evade etc but not world eating monsters.. :shock:


World eating monsters can dodge, evade, etc. It's just that the GM describes it any way he likes, using a single HP score. Player characters having DP pools helps create a narrative in combat. Doing the same for all monsters does not, because the GM has full control over describing how each attack is mitigated.

Quote:
Imho, it should either be ONLY pc's have it, or EVERYONE, purely for internal consistancy fi nothing else.


The players don't have to know, that's part of the magic of being behind the screen as the GM. You describe it as the monster takes it.

Quote:
That way you don't end up with your players going "so, the evil mercenary can evade and block, but not the gigantic epic dragon of doom!?". :oops:


The gigantic dragon may not bother with moving aside in the first place :lol:

Quote:
Disclaimer- I am in no way 100% down with all the monster creation rules so if i have missed something please just say. :)


The only thing you're missing is that you don't have to reveal everything about an opponent faced. You have control over how the PC's actions affect the monster in question.

Why then, you might ask, did I split hit points into various pools for players? Because it enchances the narrative flow of combat. Honestly, that was the only reason. It forces players to contribute a narrative to their character's actions. Some players have been better at this than others all along, I realize, and I'm not saying games that stick to a single hit point score have somehow *failed*. I do believe the reason for splitting HP into multiple pools is great for PCs, but falls apart in most cases for GM controlled monsters.

Don't let those players behind your screen! :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:02 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am
Posts: 58
Heya Dan, thanks for the quick answers, though i think you may have missed my point a little bit.

I really like how the monsters don't have DP's, i think its awesome as a GM. The point i was trying to make is that why do monsters have no DP's but fully fledged NPC's do? Does that make sense what i'm trying to say? I'll try and clarify in dot point if i may.

1. I really like DP's! They rock!
2. I really, really like how DP's work for PC's.
3. I really like how monsters don't have DP's as it makes them much simpler to run.
4. I don't like how Fully Fledged NPC's have DP's but really cool monsters and other important creatures don't. It seems to break the flow a little, both from a game management and consistancy perspective. Should i just design my NPC's like monsters without DP's? Would this break anything?

I guess what i'm trying to say is why do we need to have DP's for Fully Fledged NPC's when we don't for world eating monsters? Design wise that is. I'm curious why you made the definition between the two i guess. :)


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Ze Groupe wrote:
Heya Dan, thanks for the quick answers, though i think you may have missed my point a little bit.

I really like how the monsters don't have DP's, i think its awesome as a GM. The point i was trying to make is that why do monsters have no DP's but fully fledged NPC's do? Does that make sense what i'm trying to say? I'll try and clarify in dot point if i may.

1. I really like DP's! They rock!
2. I really, really like how DP's work for PC's.
3. I really like how monsters don't have DP's as it makes them much simpler to run.
4. I don't like how Fully Fledged NPC's have DP's but really cool monsters and other important creatures don't. It seems to break the flow a little, both from a game management and consistancy perspective. Should i just design my NPC's like monsters without DP's? Would this break anything?

I guess what i'm trying to say is why do we need to have DP's for Fully Fledged NPC's when we don't for world eating monsters? Design wise that is. I'm curious why you made the definition between the two i guess. :)


Oh! Okay, I understand better now. :D

I suppose an article on "full fledged" monsters would make sense, especially for monsters that are encountered in situations other than combat. Damn, another thing on the list :lol:

For now, I don't think it would hurt anything to assign abilities to monsters. Figuring out the challenge rating would work the same no matter how you split up DPs because it's based on Potential-Harm (top total MRV in close, ranged, and magical categories). The question then becomes how best to format such critters. I'm up for suggestions on that count...would perhaps make for interesting wiki entries?

Also, since we're talking about rules, check out the thread on Resilience and magic and chime in. I'm very interested in feedback on that count.

One thing about ERP that's cool, I'm told, is how easy it is to customize. Still, I want the rules to evolve toward the "common good", or what most players gravitate towards. Of course the game works well as it is (if it didn't I doubt we'd even be talking about it), but I'm a real fan of optional rules and new ways of doing things. I think there ought to be a section on the wiki dedicated to that too...oh, if only I had more free time! ;-)

Keep posting!


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:27 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am
Posts: 58
dancross wrote:
I suppose an article on "full fledged" monsters would make sense, especially for monsters that are encountered in situations other than combat. Damn, another thing on the list :lol:

For now, I don't think it would hurt anything to assign abilities to monsters. Figuring out the challenge rating would work the same no matter how you split up DPs because it's based on Potential-Harm (top total MRV in close, ranged, and magical categories).


See, now i personnaly think that would be the wrong way to go. ;) The issue irritated us in the opposite manner to be honest, it seemed like an unecessary addition to npc's full stop. DP's should be what makes the characters "heroic" and a little longer lasting. It also makes running npc's/monsters a lot easier and free flowing as a GM to not have npc's (monsters or people) having DP's to manage.

My 2 cents anyways. :)


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:24 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Ze Groupe wrote:
dancross wrote:
I suppose an article on "full fledged" monsters would make sense, especially for monsters that are encountered in situations other than combat. Damn, another thing on the list :lol:

For now, I don't think it would hurt anything to assign abilities to monsters. Figuring out the challenge rating would work the same no matter how you split up DPs because it's based on Potential-Harm (top total MRV in close, ranged, and magical categories).


See, now i personnaly think that would be the wrong way to go. ;) The issue irritated us in the opposite manner to be honest, it seemed like an unecessary addition to npc's full stop. DP's should be what makes the characters "heroic" and a little longer lasting. It also makes running npc's/monsters a lot easier and free flowing as a GM to not have npc's (monsters or people) having DP's to manage.

My 2 cents anyways. :)


Hmmm...I wonder if I should rework the NPCS in the campaign setting to reflect this. I'd have to poll for that. Do all of your players feel the same way?


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:10 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:39 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Independence MO
I think it's fine the way it is. If I want a special long-term adversary I can make him up just like a character, DPs and all. If you want to give a Dp to an NPC, go for it, but I wouldn't change the system for it. Make it :idea: an optional rule!


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:16 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am
Posts: 58
After a few beers and some conversation we (as a group of 5) think that NPC's should not have DP's to keep them internally consistant (and easier to run!) with monsters (which as we see it are just nasty more single minded npc's).

If a GM wants to make a more complicated advesary then he/she can just create them as a PC, no harm done, the rules are already there for that, but i think the rules should allow for creating/running 99.9% of npc's without DP's but still have them a challenge/fun/detailed'ish.

In our sessions (we have played 3 to date) running more than 1 or 2 "fully fledged" npc's (i was GM) with DP's felt like a real chore, where as players loved the DP management element. So we say, play to the systems strengths and let players have fun with the DP's and GM's (as a general rule) simply tell a story.

This is of course just one groups opinion*.

Sincerely,

Ze Groupe.

Our group however is one that games 1-2 times a week, and plays a LOT of different games (wargames, tcg's, rpg's etc), so i'd like to think that most of our comments are well thought out and come from mature and level headed people, as opposed to a knee jerk "hey i don't like that so lets change it!" perspective. Just for clarification, i wrote this here just to let Dan know where we come from, because i know a LOT of feedback rergarding rpg's comes from people who have "read the book", and not really played the system and put it through its paces from an "out of house" point of view. :)


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:32 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 am
Posts: 173
orcbreath wrote:
I think it's fine the way it is. If I want a special long-term adversary I can make him up just like a character, DPs and all. If you want to give a Dp to an NPC, go for it, but I wouldn't change the system for it. Make it :idea: an optional rule!


Agreed. Optional rule that you can make your NPC's without DPs just makes sense. How many shopkeepers need them really? On the flip side, having them availble for that reoccurring villian is a must.

_________________
"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:55 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am
Posts: 58
I can honestly see where the other 2 posters are coming from, but i must ask....

1. Do you not see how it is a little bizzare how Epic monsters dont have an evade, dodge, weapon DP, and only Fully Fledged NPC's do? Basically meaning that only when players encounter an Elf, Dwarf, Human etc will they need to "get through" his/her DP's before "hurting" him/her? Where as with a Dragon (probably way more powerful than most NPC's any of us will ever create) has no form of DP's? For us this needs to be made consistant (in any way suitable to the author) for the system to gel.

2. Have you actually run the system as a GM and tried using 2-3 NPC's with DP's? I'm not trying to sound like my opinion is more "factual" than yours, i just want to know if your comments are practicial or theoretical. This is the same with the init weapon bonus issue raised in our other thread, it was something that didn't even click as being a little "off" until we ran the game a few times and suddenly came across a tonne of weird situations in combat related to the weapon init bonus that lead us to ask about it.

Sincerely,

Ze Groupe.


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:39 pm
Posts: 9
Location: Independence MO
When I said recurring adversary, that does not just mean "PC race." I like liches, and lizardmen, vampires and medusas, and especially dragons. It is a sure bet that a manipulative dragon that works through agents, is going to have ADPs when it comes time for him to risk his hide. Anything else would be anticlimactic. Which we don't do, if it can be helped.
As to the question of practical experience, none yet. I have not had a chance to start up the new campaign, our group has conflicting work schedules at the moment. I do recognize that my job as a GM using Eldritch will be easier and more fun than using D&D 3.5. Never look back!
I am glad that you are getting play time and are sharing with the rest of us. I check the forum 3-4 times a day, and print out any posts that advance the game. They go in my notes. Please keep it coming! Once we get started I will be sharing too.


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:09 pm 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:47 pm
Posts: 212
Location: Central Florida
Ze Groupe wrote:
Am i imagining it or do epic monsters like Dragons, Ogres, Trolls never have DP's?



I so thought this was a spam thread
Have fun everyone

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Over 30 years spent gaming, all sorts of systems, feel free to ask me anything, no guarantees I will have an answer.


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:28 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 am
Posts: 173
Ze Groupe wrote:
I can honestly see where the other 2 posters are coming from, but i must ask....

1. Do you not see how it is a little bizzare how Epic monsters dont have an evade, dodge, weapon DP, and only Fully Fledged NPC's do? Basically meaning that only when players encounter an Elf, Dwarf, Human etc will they need to "get through" his/her DP's before "hurting" him/her? Where as with a Dragon (probably way more powerful than most NPC's any of us will ever create) has no form of DP's? For us this needs to be made consistant (in any way suitable to the author) for the system to gel.

2. Have you actually run the system as a GM and tried using 2-3 NPC's with DP's? I'm not trying to sound like my opinion is more "factual" than yours, i just want to know if your comments are practicial or theoretical. This is the same with the init weapon bonus issue raised in our other thread, it was something that didn't even click as being a little "off" until we ran the game a few times and suddenly came across a tonne of weird situations in combat related to the weapon init bonus that lead us to ask about it.

Sincerely,

Ze Groupe.


1. Where does it say in the book that all PC race NPC's need DPs or on the other hand that Dragons and such don't get them? I don't remember seeing it anywhere but would like to find it if its there. All I saw was a paragraph about Full fledged NPC & Monsters on page 67.

In regards to your question: Not really. To me it seems a GM choice depending on how often the NPC will be used. As I said in my previous post, I don't know many shopkeepers that need DPs. In the same vein, why would Joe Cutpurse need them either? or Joe Henchman for that matter? Or why would the big bad vampire lord NOT have them if he is a reoccurring NPC? I would only give them to characters that will be reoccurring just like in any other system I have run.

2. Yes And No. I have run the game but do not use DPs for NPC's unless it will be a reoccurring character as stated above so I haven't had more than one NPC w/DPs in combat. Though I would expect it to take longer and be somewhat epic as it should be if that many fully fledged NPCs are in it.

_________________
"I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." Corwin to Dara, The Guns of Avalon

"...I was the lesser evil." --Bleys to Corwin, Nine Princes in Amber


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 2:28 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Hello!

I never use DPs for NPCs (other than single HP and RS scores) because I co-wrote the game and I'm too lazy ;-) I just describe it as I see it in combat. If a player metagames and asks, "how many evade points can this guy have?" I just give him a wicked smile and keep him terrified. LOL

There are rules for full-fledged characters challenging the initiative of heroes in a battle phase (within a round). If you dump the concept of "full fledged", then apply that rule to extraordinary (exceptional, same thing). Also, there's no trouble adding ADCs (skill sets) to a fodder, standard or exceptional creature. Just stick it in the notes.

Now a full-fledged NPC is going to be tougher than even the toughest exceptioal non-magical foe (human or mundane) due to a lack of modifiers. So a little creative math is required there..

See the monster wiki for one such example of a "chosen foe"...a "big boss" type that is not "full fledged" in the sense given in the book.

I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer to this.


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 Post subject: Re: DP's & Big Daddy Monsters?
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:45 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am
Posts: 58
StormPatriarch wrote:
1. Where does it say in the book that all PC race NPC's need DPs or on the other hand that Dragons and such don't get them? I don't remember seeing it anywhere but would like to find it if its there. All I saw was a paragraph about Full fledged NPC & Monsters on page 67.


Well in the monster creation rules there is no explanation on how to create DP's for them, just a total HP value. Then there is the Wiki which has a few examples (one of which is a Dragon) and none have DP's, so i just based my comments on that.


StormPatriarch wrote:
2. Yes And No. I have run the game but do not use DPs for NPC's unless it will be a reoccurring character as stated above so I haven't had more than one NPC w/DPs in combat. Though I would expect it to take longer and be somewhat epic as it should be if that many fully fledged NPCs are in it.


Cool, good to see that it is working for your group as written, if that's the case then just keep on having fun with it in any way that brings you enjoyment i say!

dancross wrote:
Hello!

I never use DPs for NPCs (other than single HP and RS scores) because I co-wrote the game and I'm too lazy ;-) I just describe it as I see it in combat. If a player metagames and asks, "how many evade points can this guy have?" I just give him a wicked smile and keep him terrified. LOL

There are rules for full-fledged characters challenging the initiative of heroes in a battle phase (within a round). If you dump the concept of "full fledged", then apply that rule to extraordinary (exceptional, same thing). Also, there's no trouble adding ADCs (skill sets) to a fodder, standard or exceptional creature. Just stick it in the notes.

Now a full-fledged NPC is going to be tougher than even the toughest exceptioal non-magical foe (human or mundane) due to a lack of modifiers. So a little creative math is required there..

See the monster wiki for one such example of a "chosen foe"...a "big boss" type that is not "full fledged" in the sense given in the book.

I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer to this.


This is exactly how i feel and how i will be doing it from now on.

Sincerely,

Ze Groupe


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