Goodman Games

Fan Forums
It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:13 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 3:56 am
Posts: 1
Location: Bristol, UK
It seems to me that understanding ADPs is going to be a crucial part of getting up to speed with Eldritch. I know my players will be disappointed if they end up creating a character with weaknesses or vulnerabilities they weren't aware of. So I'm trying to make 110% sure that I understand ADPs and can explain them properly. Apologies if the answers to these questions were staring me right in the face but I missed them. :)

Deflect ADP

On p33 this is stated as being the MRVs of the base Melee ability, Shield branch and Magic Protect. I spent a bit of time working out where the Shield ability came from. The text of p33 implies that it's a specialisation of Melee, but it wasn't until p62 that I found this stated clearly. But now I am not clear what MRV gets added for "Shield", particularly when the character has one or more Shield masteries. Since the base Melee ability is already included in the Deflect ADP, I am assuming that "Shield" shouldn't add this again, so we aren't talking about the MRV of a full Ability Dice Chain. Am I right in this assumption?

This still leaves a number of possibilities:

  • a) just the MRV of the Shield specialisation,
  • b) the MRV of Shield > {mastery of the shield being used}
  • c) the MRV of Shield > {highest ranked mastery}
  • d) the MRV of Shield and all masteries

Let's consider a character with two shield masteries, and no Magic ability, who happens to be using a small shield:

Code:
Melee D8 > Shield D6 > Small Shield D4
                     > Medium Shield D6


Using the above possibilities, her Deflect ADP could be:

  • a) 14 = Melee 8 + Shield 6,
  • b) 18 = Melee 8 + Shield 6 + Small Shield 4,
  • c) 20 = Melee 8 + Shield 6 + Medium Shield 6,
  • d) 24 = Melee 8 + Shield 6 + Small Shield 4 + Medium Shield 6.

There is quite a difference there, so I would like to know which one is correct. Also, if the character loses her shield during combat, would the Deflect ADP change?

Similarly, I'm not sure how "Magic Protect" should be calculated. Is it just the MRV of the base Magic ability, or would specialisations and masteries come into play here?

Evade ADP

I started off assuming that this used the MRV of the base Agility and Reflexes abilities (which would be consistent with the other ADP calculations). However, the discussion of the Agility ability on p19 and the Reflexes ability on p21 says the Evade ADP should use the trees.

Does this mean:

  • a) the MRV of the base ability plus the highest ranked specialisation and mastery, or
  • b) the MRV of the base ability and all specialisations and masteries?

Let's consider a character who has no Pugilism, but a number of Agility and Reflexes specialisation and masteries:

Code:
Agility D10 > Acrobatics D6 > Evasion D4
            > Balance D8    > Combat D4
Reflexes D6 > Catching D6
            > Dodging D4


Using the above possibilities, her Deflect ADP could be:

  • a) 32 = Agility 10 + Acrobatics 6 + Evasion 4 + Reflexes 6 + Catching 6
  • b) 48 = Agility 10 + Acrobatics D6 + Evasion D4 + Balance 8 + Combat 4 + Reflexes 6 + Catching 6 + Dodging 4

Weaponry ADP

Actually I think I've got this one. However, on p13 & p23 it says "[includes Parry, Entangle, and Keep At Bay]". The discussion on p33 makes it clear that the Weaponry ADP is an abstraction of things like parrying with a sword, entanglement with a flail and keeping foes at bay with a spear. However, the fact they are capitalised made me wonder whether these were actually specialisations of Melee at some point during the rules development? If so, I'd be interested to know why you removed them, and what the effect of adding a Melee > Parry specialisation would be.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:00 am 
Offline
Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
datainadequate wrote:
  • a) just the MRV of the Shield specialisation,
  • b) the MRV of Shield > {mastery of the shield being used}
  • c) the MRV of Shield > {highest ranked mastery}
  • d) the MRV of Shield and all masteries


The Deflect DP is MRV of basic Melee, plus the MRV of the Shield specialization, plus the MRV of any Shield masteries. Then, you modify the Deflect DP based on the type of shield used.

A small shield offers zero damage reduction, but grants a + 50% to Deflect DP.
A medium shield grants a +1 to the armor check, and Deflect is calculated normally.
A large shield grants a +2 to armor check, but incurs a penalty of - 50% to Deflect DP.

Quote:
Let's consider a character with two shield masteries, and no Magic ability, who happens to be using a small shield:

Code:
Melee D8 > Shield D6 > Small Shield D4
                     > Medium Shield D6


This character would have a 24 base Deflect. If using a small shield, that score would raise to a 48. If a medium shield, +1 to armor rolls (otherwise, Deflect score remains the same). If a large shield, the score would be 24, but grants +2 to every armor check. Once you purchase ranks in masteries with the shield, the rules allow the base deflect score to remain the same, (before applying percent changes due to shield type), regardless of which kind of shield used. You *could* add or subtract the mastery MRV based on the type of shield wielded, but that's a bit of bookkeeping I wouldn't bother with.

Using the above possibilities, her Deflect ADP could be:

Quote:
There is quite a difference there, so I would like to know which one is correct. Also, if the character loses her shield during combat, would the Deflect ADP change?


If she looses her shield during combat she could still use the base Deflect score. The GM may rule that you must take away the specialization and mastery die-ranks MRV values if using something other than a shield, but again, I wouldn't worry about that myself. You "paid" for that skill, so I'd allow the same 24 points in Deflect even if you were using a makeshift shield. That's a judgement call there.

Quote:
Similarly, I'm not sure how "Magic Protect" should be calculated. Is it just the MRV of the base Magic ability, or would specialisations and masteries come into play here?


The magic protection part is based on the Fortify Effect. That means you'd be adding a seperate, temporary number of hitpoints depending on the spell. So, if the arcanist points at your shield and uses an incantation to increase it's protective value, you'd add between 3 to 36 points (Depending on the ADC ability check result for the caster). The caster would have to maintain such a spell. Magic items and armor is another issue. If the caster uses a Protect Effect, that can only increase passive protection types and is usually a random die-roll (just like armor).

Quote:
Evade ADP


I started off assuming that this used the MRV of the base Agility and Reflexes abilities (which would be consistent with the other ADP calculations). However, the discussion of the Agility ability on p19 and the Reflexes ability on p21 says the Evade ADP should use the trees.


Option b is correct. The MRV of the base ability and all specialisations and masteries?

Quote:
Let's consider a character who has no Pugilism, but a number of Agility and Reflexes specialisation and masteries:

Code:
Agility D10 > Acrobatics D6 > Evasion D4
            > Balance D8    > Combat D4
Reflexes D6 > Catching D6
            > Dodging D4


This would be 48 points total. That's a character very, very good at getting out of the way in close combat!

Quote:
Weaponry ADP

Actually I think I've got this one. However, on p13 & p23 it says "[includes Parry, Entangle, and Keep At Bay]". The discussion on p33 makes it clear that the Weaponry ADP is an abstraction of things like parrying with a sword, entanglement with a flail and keeping foes at bay with a spear. However, the fact they are capitalised made me wonder whether these were actually specialisations of Melee at some point during the rules development? If so, I'd be interested to know why you removed them, and what the effect of adding a Melee > Parry specialisation would be.


In an early draft of the rules "weaponry" was called "parry". This was very limiting, in a narrative sense. If you used a pole-arm for instance, the length of the pole-arm could keep your opponent at bay, thus mitigating potential-harm. Or you could avoid harm by entangling the opponent's weapon (extra rules can cover *keeping* your opponents weapon entangled)...anyway, these are not specializations because all die-ranks in the tree add to the Weaponry DP anyway. However, if you DID specialize in something like that, you could work with the GM allowing for special moves during combat, using opposed rolls (ADC vs. opponent's ADC or primary threat rank.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:01 am 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 26
Location: Oxford, UK
A couple of related questions here:

- if you've take some deflect hits, and then change shield for some reason, what happens to the ADP? e.g I have Deflect of 20, and I'm using a Heavy Shield, so I get +2 armour, but Deflect at 50% = 10. I use up these 10 and then swap to a light shield. Do I now get no benefit, or (20-10)X2 (light shield) = 20 Deflect, or some other number?

- similarly, if I have Mastery in a weapon, I get the mastery value of that specific weapon added to my weaponry pool. If I use all my weaponry pool, then change weapons, what happens? e.g. I start out with a weapon with +20 mastery, and a weaponry ADP of 15, so my total weaponry pool is 35. I use up my weaponry pool to zero, am disarmed, and then pull out a smaller weapon as backup. In this case it seems like my weaponry pool would still be zero, as I've gone from +20 to (say) +10 and still have used up all the points. What about if I was using a +10 weapon, was knocked to zero, dropped it, then picked up a +20 weapon? Do I get 0+20 points, or 0+10(difference) points?

thanks,

Mark


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:04 am 
Offline
Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:46 pm
Posts: 90
d(sqrt(-1)) wrote:
similarly, if I have Mastery in a weapon, I get the mastery value of that specific weapon added to my weaponry pool. If I use all my weaponry pool, then change weapons, what happens? e.g. I start out with a weapon with +20 mastery, and a weaponry ADP of 15, so my total weaponry pool is 35. I use up my weaponry pool to zero, am disarmed, and then pull out a smaller weapon as backup. In this case it seems like my weaponry pool would still be zero, as I've gone from +20 to (say) +10 and still have used up all the points. What about if I was using a +10 weapon, was knocked to zero, dropped it, then picked up a +20 weapon? Do I get 0+20 points, or 0+10(difference) points?


I believe the answer to this question is on Pg 33 (lower left side of page):
"The full point total of Weaponry ADP is usuable by the creature regardless of the weapon wielded. A creature may switch between weapons at will..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:37 am 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 26
Location: Oxford, UK
This is true, but it does also say (sorry, no book with me at the moment, so no reference), that the mastery points gained when a weapon is used are lost if the weapon is changed/dropped etc, to prevent people starting out with a +20 weapon at the start of combat and then switching to a different weapon straightaway. This implies that you do need to track those points somehow, and since the pool can't drop below zero, you may need to know what happens if so!

cheers,

Mark


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:07 am 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:47 pm
Posts: 736
Location: Lexington, KY
I have no idea what the official answer might be, but as a GM I'd be tempted to allow a character to pick up a different weapon and add its Mastery bonus to his Weaponry ADP as long as his Weaponry pool had already reached 0. (So in effect his new Weaponry ADP would be equal to the Mastery bonus of whatever weapon he picked up).

From a logical standpoint, this could represent the fact that attackers need to adjust their attack strategies depending on what weapon the defender is using, because different weapons are used differently. Picking up a new weapon gives the defender a bit of a breather while his opponents adjust to the new tactics.

And I see it leading to a cool swashbuckling cinematic scene where the hero has depleted his ADPs, but the bad guys keep on coming. The hero flees through a door, and finds himself in a long hallway with various weapons adorning the walls. The bad guys pour through the door. As the hero retreats down the hallway, he drops his axe and grabs a sword of the wall. Parry, parry! Still retreating, he drops the sword and grabs a spear. Parry, parry! Still retreating, he drops the spear and grabs a dagger...now he's screwed.

_________________
Dieter Zimmerman
Drunk & Sailor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:31 pm 
Offline
Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
d(sqrt(-1)) wrote:
This is true, but it does also say (sorry, no book with me at the moment, so no reference), that the mastery points gained when a weapon is used are lost if the weapon is changed/dropped etc, to prevent people starting out with a +20 weapon at the start of combat and then switching to a different weapon straightaway. This implies that you do need to track those points somehow, and since the pool can't drop below zero, you may need to know what happens if so!

cheers,

Mark


You get extra defensive points at the beginning of combat if you start out with a mastered weapon. I'd record those points seperately, just to make it easier. If you lose or drop that weapon, those points vanish. Some weapons have a big bonus to the Weaponry DP, so I thought it might be unbalancing to the game to allow switching weapons with full bonus during a single combat. If that were allowed, I might lower the defensive bonuses first...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:41 pm 
Offline
Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
mythfish wrote:
I have no idea what the official answer might be, but as a GM I'd be tempted to allow a character to pick up a different weapon and add its Mastery bonus to his Weaponry ADP as long as his Weaponry pool had already reached 0. (So in effect his new Weaponry ADP would be equal to the Mastery bonus of whatever weapon he picked up).

From a logical standpoint, this could represent the fact that attackers need to adjust their attack strategies depending on what weapon the defender is using, because different weapons are used differently. Picking up a new weapon gives the defender a bit of a breather while his opponents adjust to the new tactics.

And I see it leading to a cool swashbuckling cinematic scene where the hero has depleted his ADPs, but the bad guys keep on coming. The hero flees through a door, and finds himself in a long hallway with various weapons adorning the walls. The bad guys pour through the door. As the hero retreats down the hallway, he drops his axe and grabs a sword of the wall. Parry, parry! Still retreating, he drops the sword and grabs a spear. Parry, parry! Still retreating, he drops the spear and grabs a dagger...now he's screwed.


Maybe the following could be made an optional rule. I think as written it would be too powerful to allow full mastery bonus for switching mastered weapons during a single combat. I'd bet a lot more characters would stick to katanas and fencing swords if it were allowed (encouraging a kind of meta-gaming that the system tries to discourage).

Right now, there are five levels of mastery bonus ... 0, 5, 10, 15, and 20 temp points of the Weaponry DP at the start of combat, assuming you being with the mastered weapon. A "switching" rule might make it something more like...

level 1 mastery bonus (none, such as with a dagger)
level 2 master bonus (+4 temp hit points to Weaponry DP)
level 3 master bonus (+6 temp hit points to Weaponry DP)
level 4 master bonus (+8 temp hit points to Weaponry DP)
level 5 master bonus (+10 temp hit points to weaponry DP).

These temporary mastery based hit points would be recorded seperately. I'd allow that bonus only once per combat per mastered weapon type. So if a master of the long sword (a level 5 master bonus weapon) had a +10, but took two hits for 5 threat points, and then switched to his long chain, he'd gain +8. However, he could not switch back to his long sword and get that +10 again.

This would be a "revolving" defense pool, in a sense. A workable mechanic...let me know if you like it better than the current rules!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:27 pm 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:47 pm
Posts: 736
Location: Lexington, KY
dancross wrote:
Maybe the following could be made an optional rule. I think as written it would be too powerful to allow full mastery bonus for switching mastered weapons during a single combat. I'd bet a lot more characters would stick to katanas and fencing swords if it were allowed (encouraging a kind of meta-gaming that the system tries to discourage).

Right now, there are five levels of mastery bonus ... 0, 5, 10, 15, and 20 temp points of the Weaponry DP at the start of combat, assuming you being with the mastered weapon. A "switching" rule might make it something more like...

level 1 mastery bonus (none, such as with a dagger)
level 2 master bonus (+4 temp hit points to Weaponry DP)
level 3 master bonus (+6 temp hit points to Weaponry DP)
level 4 master bonus (+8 temp hit points to Weaponry DP)
level 5 master bonus (+10 temp hit points to weaponry DP).

These temporary mastery based hit points would be recorded seperately. I'd allow that bonus only once per combat per mastered weapon type. So if a master of the long sword (a level 5 master bonus weapon) had a +10, but took two hits for 5 threat points, and then switched to his long chain, he'd gain +8. However, he could not switch back to his long sword and get that +10 again.

This would be a "revolving" defense pool, in a sense. A workable mechanic...let me know if you like it better than the current rules!


Well, you've played the game and I haven't so your judgment as to what is unbalancing is probably better than mine. I don't know that it's all that unbalancing, though, if you require a character to be at 0 ADP before giving a bonus for switching weapons. If a character has already depleted all his ADPs and there are still enemies coming, I don't imagine another 10-20 points will make that much difference. Most characters probably aren't going to have masteries in more than a couple kinds of weapons anyway, are they? Or are they? Like I said, I haven't actually played the game yet.

Another way to do it might be to limit it by weapon type rather than defense bonus...you only get the mastery bonus from one sword weapon, one axe weapon, one bludgeon weapon, etc per combat.

But yeah, in any case switching back to a weapon you've already used you clearly would not get the bonus for it again.

_________________
Dieter Zimmerman
Drunk & Sailor


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Calculating Active Defence Pools (ADPs)
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:48 pm 
Offline
Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Quote:
Well, you've played the game and I haven't so your judgment as to what is unbalancing is probably better than mine. I don't know that it's all that unbalancing, though, if you require a character to be at 0 ADP before giving a bonus for switching weapons. If a character has already depleted all his ADPs and there are still enemies coming, I don't imagine another 10-20 points will make that much difference. Most characters probably aren't going to have masteries in more than a couple kinds of weapons anyway, are they? Or are they? Like I said, I haven't actually played the game yet.


True, most characters probably won't be mastered in more than a few weapons. I'd be a little cocerned about min/maxing if switching weapons allowed for the mastery bonus with each new weapon in a single combat, but I don't know if it would "break" anything either. ;-)

Quote:
Another way to do it might be to limit it by weapon type rather than defense bonus...you only get the mastery bonus from one sword weapon, one axe weapon, one bludgeon weapon, etc per combat.

But yeah, in any case switching back to a weapon you've already used you clearly would not get the bonus for it again.


I'd like to see a book of expanded rules and stuff for the game one day, but that's a long range project. As a player, I like optional rules.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group