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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:03 am 
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I'm against it. No point in giving Mechs a vulnerability they do not deserve, plus, there is no more the invulnerability many monsters have in the past (sneaks, criticals and such. You can crit & sneak golems now.)

In fact, Animated mechs are nothing more than Golems whit a seat for the owner. What a stupid thing is it?

Changes:
Animated golems work as all of the others (and as result, are more funny to play), they are just made out of different materials and are controlled trough different methods.
(fluff-only. Maybe a different resistance for the material, like Reist 5/Necrotic instead than Resist 5/Physical that metal ones get, but nothing more.)


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:22 am 
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More musings, and if I can churn some out another post with crunch.

Lunar dragons are described as having a "breath weapon" of moonlight. While playing my RL game over the weekend the warlock of the group was describing the effect of his Dire Radiance at will ability as a shaft of moonlight. I thought that was very cool and it stuck in my mind like the lunar dragon breath weapon, so I was thinking that when I get down to redoing the monsters I need to remember the breath weapon should be radiant damage, like the ability. Which later led me to think that lunar dragons would be natural undead killers. Further after a few attacks against the undead they would devote even more resources to dealing with the threat of the lunar creatures.


Mechs, possible freeform build and design chart compared to premade mechs and upgrades.
Both ideas are good but it's the question on which would be easiest to implement and balance. My guess is that having a set mechs and available upgrades would be easier than a piecemaille system of flowcharts and number crunching... at least for the players, having some form of planned, mapped system for building mechs at least in house would be helpful. Size->Type->Extras->"Build Cost"->Weapons->Enhancements->"Final Cost"(buy sell price standard)
Eventually putting out a complete way to make fully customized mechs would not be a bad idea either, but probably shouldn't be included in the base book, it could be saved for the book on mechs, mech battle and the various other mech cultures(the confederacy, irontooth, monsters, undead)

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:50 am 
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I'd make lunar (moonlight? moonbeem?) a new energy type rather than use radiant.

For mechs, I would build the mech designs and then create a bunch of example mechs. I was thinking of how to do spelljammer in 4E. I was thinking of a way to involve characters encounter/daily powers. Here (6th post) is what I came up with. It could create an interesting mech system.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:22 pm 
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One of the gretest errors in the previous editions was the introduction of new mechanisms, often forgotten by the players, in the monsters, as new energy type.
Who care to have a spell/feat against corruption damage, when there is no more than 10 ultra-rare monsters that deal it? If they was doing uncharted damage it will be identical.

So, I strongly suggest against new type of energy damage. Many abilities and skills clearly define strictly the type of damage they deal or resist against, and in introducing new types of energy you have to rewrite defenses abilities (that make totally pointless the new energy type) or write down new abilities against it (that no one will ever use due to its limited apparition as "expansion's monsters theme").

Better is having the moonbreath as radiant/cold damge, or untyped, or anyway using the basic types anyway. 4th is nice due to its straightforwardness, no need to grain its fast mechanisms whit new niche-feat/ powers/ skills.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:41 pm 
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Alyss wrote:
One of the gretest errors in the previous editions was the introduction of new mechanisms, often forgotten by the players, in the monsters, as new energy type.


I agree introducing lots of new energy types is bad. The reason I suggest doing so for lunar energy is because it is supposed to be alien to the world. No one is supposed to have resistance to it.

Frankly I expect WotC to introduce more energy types over time. (I'm also not convinced DragonMech is a good setting to convert to 4E. I think it loses a lot of it's feel. Not that I wouldn't mind a cleanup of the system. I'm really looking forward to DragonMech Battles.)

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:44 am 
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Point is, if you wish a not-resistible energy, you just use untyped attack.

Like:
Close blast 3
+12 vs. Reflex 2d6+10, effect (save end).

Having it doing a not influencing type of damage is pointless, and just open road to pointless classes, pointless feats and pointless special abilities -pointless because there will be so few lunar-type attacks/ effects that people will not use their precious (and few) powers, feats and classes to be shielded against it.

Instead, using untyped or standardized type of damage allow, in the first case, to have a clear effect, in the second an opportunity to interact whit any already-existing rule.

I lost the count of players taking sonicball instead than fireball as 3.5th 3rd level spell just for intra-game mechanical reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Alyss wrote:
Point is, if you wish a not-resistible energy, you just use untyped attack.


I want is to resistible. I just don't want it be common. I want the lunar dragons to cause havoc and give rise to dragonslayers who get resist lunar items/spells/etc. You are right in a typical campaign you would be foolish to waste powers, feats, etc. on a attack few creatures use. In a campaign all about driving off the lunar creatures, those abilities would be increadibly valuable.

In a 3E game, the paladin of our group got a good magic weapon. In a lot of campaign it might not be a big deal. In our campaign, we were trying to stop a group of devils from releasing their master. A weapon that went through their DR and regeneration was more valuable then any other magic weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Dulsi wrote
Quote:
I want is to resistible. I just don't want it be common.


why don't you just require them to have resistance to all standard types to resist lunar, with their effective resistance equal to the lowest of their other resistances?


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:25 am 
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Raptor wrote:
why don't you just require them to have resistance to all standard types to resist lunar, with their effective resistance equal to the lowest of their other resistances?


Because I want the players to be able to specialize in lunar slaying but I don't necessarily want them to have an easy time with a fire giant.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:01 am 
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BTW, the new Forgotten Realm Player's guide listthe moonbeam attacks from Selunites as Radiant, same for many Star Pact Warlocks. I'm still on the opinion that Lunar Dragons should do Radiant damage, or at most untyped.
We can use also an in unusual combo, like Radiant, Cold and Force, so you need 3 resistances to get some chance.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:00 pm 
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What I'd like to know is IF Dragonmech is going 4E, and if so, when.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:53 pm 
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I AM BACK! Long story short.

Hit by major case of brain rot.
Computer broke.
Fixed computer.
Readdicted to "World of Warcrack".
Desktop broke.
Laptop broke.
Fix laptop.
Laptop broke.
Fix Desktop.
Now no WoW has brain juices flowing again.

Lots of ideas, lots to work with, Vehicle based mech design, Mech customization based on blank template instead of ground up building with slots similar to PC's equipment slots, one shot overwinders for steam and clockwork based powers, high level constructors being the masters of battlefield manipulation and the destruction of animated and steam powered devices and creatures, Coglayers using superior intellect and REAL fire-power to lead their allies to victory and force enemies into hard places, Mech pilots pushing mechs past their designed ability, and deadly Steamborgs leaping into mass combat belching steam and revving the engine on a tool of mass destruction keeping the enemies occupied long enough to be picked off by strikers or be hacked to bits by his chainsword.

Updates to the holder posts should start trickling in as I manage to type up my hand written notes from what I made up at work.

But first Sleep!

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:05 am 
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nice to see you back online :) I was missing this tread ^_^ Funny note: did you notice the correspondence between the post on mech jokey i did (the playtest mech especially) and the Ad.Vaul. vehicle design?


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:36 am 
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Well... I thought I had all the problems nailed down... Back! Again! If i can find my password I'll try to get some of this in at work, but now i'm freaking tired!.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

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Hi,

Is there any chance of releasing a small manual of mechs in 4.0 rules rather than a whole book to please some of the people that have started a 4E Dragonmech campaign through Homebrew Rules in the short term? I'll still buy DM 4, but I would like to get a head start.

Thanks,
Jacob


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:14 pm 
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Jakews wrote:
Is there any chance of releasing a small manual of mechs in 4.0 rules rather than a whole book to please some of the people that have started a 4E Dragonmech campaign through Homebrew Rules in the short term? I'll still buy DM 4, but I would like to get a head start.


AFAIK, goodman games has not said they are making a 4E Dragonmech.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:53 am 
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Why don't try the above steamborg/ Mech jokey proposals to start? Opinions are welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

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I sincerely hope that Goodman games goes ahead with a fourth edition version of Dragonmech. Now I say that being someone who does not like fourth edition and will not likely be playing it anytime soon, if ever. Still I believe it is one of the most imaginative, interesting settings for D and D to come along in a really long time and I fervently believe it should continue. It would be a true shame to lose this unique and amazing world. If supplements continue I can always convert them to 3.5 edition. Actually right now I'm seriously considering trying to start a game on RPOL.
I am going to do everything in my power to tell my friends and fellow role players about Dragonmech and maybe get some interest going again. There is one promise I can make, and that is if you make more Dragonmech stuff, I'll buy it. And if I have my way so will my rpg group too. Thanks Goodman games for helping me find interest in D and D again. Its nice to see something original for a change:)


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Dragonmech will certainly be around, although maybe not 4E. Its next incarnation is currently under design as we speak ...

//H

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:27 am 
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Harley Stroh wrote:
Dragonmech will certainly be around, although maybe not 4E. Its next incarnation is currently under design as we speak ...

//H

Actually, it's done being designed. I believe it's currently being edited. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:32 pm 
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mythfish wrote:
Harley Stroh wrote:
Dragonmech will certainly be around, although maybe not 4E. Its next incarnation is currently under design as we speak ...

//H

Actually, it's done being designed. I believe it's currently being edited. :)


That is absolutely WONDERFUL news :D Thank you for making my week! I look forward to the upcoming revision with grateful enthusiasm. Goodmangames seriously ROCK:)


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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:24 am 
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I'm back! With news, sorta. I was spotted a while back by a few of the guys but I'm starting to finish up my first round of notes taking from the forums and rerereading the books trying to pick out the little details that will make some things even cooler, like treants with bite attacks and swallow whole...

Soon I'll be putting all the notes to use and getting the ball really rolling.

For those that have been around or at least read the thread I've been working on this and kicking ideas around for a while, but overall been very... lazy. So I've made a drastic change and as my new years resolution I'll be doing the translation to 4E! I've honestly already spent too much time taking notes so I'll have to do a lot more work on average than I planned but it shouldn't be a real problem.

Ok, so if you'd like to you can follow along and make suggestions here, or do it at my Blog, where I'll be doing most of the updating.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:09 pm 
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I got to talking to a friend about 4e DragonMech, and I have a few new ideas now:
  • coglayers use schematics as an implement. Taking a step away from the normal use of implements in battle, a coglayer instead uses a schematic during rests and extended rests, and the "enhancement bonus" (framed as the quality of the theoretical guidelines) applies for the next battle. After battles recalibration is required to continue to gain the benefit of the schematic. It'll be treated just like a magic item, but the power source is different. Who knows? Maybe some steam powers could instead be the product of a schematic's daily power.
  • Mech jockeys powers are called maneuvers. It just has to be called that. Or something similar, at least. There may be some "dead levels" at which mech jockeys do not have any powers to learn. Instead, every mech has an appropriate power at that level and of the same type. This represents mechs being designed with special maneuvers possible, and it takes a talented mech jockey to pull them off. Or I could make it a power-swap feat. Either way, mechs are like mounts - they have special maneuvers you can pull off if you're properly trained (ie., like the Mounted Combat feat).
  • There may be multiple mech jockey classes. Possibly representing a specialization in steamtech versus arcane mechs (steamtech means steam, clockwork, and man-powered mechs; arcane means animated and undead). Because the two mech styles fight very differently, and I would expect arcane power mechs to have a very different feel. Of course, I could just capture that in the unique mech powers and the weaponry.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:27 am 
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Oaksoul Elite wrote:
I got to talking to a friend about 4e DragonMech, and I have a few new ideas now:
[list]
[*]coglayers use schematics as an implement.
[*]Mech jockeys powers are called maneuvers. It just has to be called that. Or something similar, at least. There may be some "dead levels" at which mech jockeys do not have any powers to learn. Instead, every mech has an appropriate power at that level and of the same type. This represents mechs being designed with special maneuvers possible, and it takes a talented mech jockey to pull them off. Or I could make it a power-swap feat. Either way, mechs are like mounts - they have special maneuvers you can pull off if you're properly trained (ie., like the Mounted Combat feat).
[*]There may be multiple mech jockey classes. [list]


Schematics: I was thinking something like this at first too,After thinking it out I figured something like that would be better for a variation on rituals(to craft temporary devices). But I can see something like this also giving temporary bonuses.

What I'm working on idea wise for coglayers is "steam powers" as "magic items" but starting as nonmagical(so they can be had at first level) and then enhanced(magically) or improved(mechanically). Basically, They all have encounter powers built in, but Coglayers can optimize them to use at-wills and dailies based on the steam power, and their power choices.

Manuevers: "It's not a manuever yet, more of a gesture really..." -Eddie Izzard as Dr. Hiemlich. That's not bad. I was thinking of Mechs having powers as well (aside from basic attacks) but I didn't want to make them Jockey exclusives, Jockies were going to have powers that functioned with or without Mechs. Maybe Mechs have a special power you need a feat to access. A good encounter or daily based on the level and size of the mech.

Multiple Jockey classes: I don't think that's needed. The animated mechs(arcane or undead) we're generally run by spellcasters or semi-sentient and didn't need crew. For the ones that need to be driven I think a minor requirement(specific power source, Cast a specific ritual, or a control item), or just multiclassing should cover it if they want to do fancy tricks.

I didn't update my blog about it... but I washed my thumb drive the other day... RUINED! ugh... so yay... I get to remake what I made. This time I'm going to be putting it on a washproof(too big to forget) external hard drive made from my old Laptop hard drive. I love having a friend in the technologies industry.

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 Post subject: Re: 4th ED and DragonMech.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 pm 
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Interesting... I'd never thought of the steam powers as providing the encounter powers. If I understand what you're saying right, the steam powers would be coglayer implements, but they also provide the encounter powers (sort of like I proposed with a handful of mech jockey powers?) I guess that's the main cognitive leap I'm trying to work past right now: implements. Classes right now need weapons or implements that could be magical in order to reliably hit - unless you do the Attack: Stat +X vs Defense format (like the racial attack powers scale). Hmm... that's another way the coglayer could handle it.

I have no problem with powers being mech jockey exclusives - as long as you could also get them by multiclassing. I'm intrigued to see what mech jockey powers could be without mechs - it does help overcome the problem of "Oh no, this space is too small for mechs! What do you do?" I don't know how powers could be made to work either with or without mechs, and I don't like the idea of being forced to choose to focus on being a true mech jockey vs. picking up "just in case" powers. It's like depriving the fighter of his weapons and armor or the wizard of his spellbook. 4e really doesn't encourage it. I think the mech jockey should follow the same logic - don't prepare for just in case. Although I'd be fine with mech jockeys getting 3 at-wills like druids will: 2 normal at-wills at one rogue or ranger (-esque?) at-will, just in case. I'd really rather see mechs getting unique at-wills: the Rodwalker can definitely do stuff the Barbagula can't, and both do stuff Slaughtergore can't.

You're right, multiple mech jockey classes aren't needed. It was just something a friend had suggested while I was trying to figure out how to capture the versatility of mech designs. The mech-specific powers captures it very well. A guideline of 1 encounter, utility, and daily per tier is a good start. It allows the mech to really influence combat style. Plus it gets around the 4e equivalent of changler, bore puncher, lobster claw, etc: they're mech-specific powers. It better gets around the versatility of tactics. All mech jockeys are strikers, with their mech determining their secondary role. It's awesome. And it really seems to work with my attempts to stat up the Rodwalker and Slaughtergore. Great flavor too. The mechs really feel different: Slaughtergore damages itself to be more devastating (or summon minions that it can also consume to heal itself) while the Rodwalker serves as a secondary controller. A few powers deal both fire and necrotic damage while making the target temporarily vulnerable to fire. Sounds like an elven strategy, specifically those elves who sold their souls to survive the lunar rain (2nd Age of Walkers, forgot their name). I may actually need to create a few more Rodwalker powers so mech jockeys choose one or the other: effectively saying if they use the mech normally or have a darker side (wizard vs. warlock approach).

In another couple of weeks I may get the time to clean up a first draft and show my ideas. And here's another interesting thought: instead of giving mech jockeys specifically blank power levels, they get a class feature that allows them to sacrifice a power to use a mech-specific one of equal or lower level and type (encounter for encounter, daily for daily, utility for utility). Multiclass mech jockeys get this ability with the multiclass feat. Since it's at-will for mech jockeys, it's theoretically an encounter power for multiclass. But it misses the point, since there's a sacrifice involved; would it be more in keeping with 4e to just demand a higher level sacrifice? Limiting the exchange to once a day sounds a bit too harsh. Wait! I know! You can only sacrifice powers less than your level with this ability.

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