assorted mech combat questions

[modus666]

1) pilot's armor: the description of this armor indicates that it was designed to help protect mechpilots from some of the hazards of mech-on-mech combat, namely weapons piercing the cockpit. there is no description of any mechanic that i can find as to exactly HOW it does this, other than its armor bonus which as far as I can tell doesnt much factor into the mechanics of attacking the crew compartment.

2) targeting the crew: the rules for targeting the crew compartments of an enemy mech seem clear enough (though not likely to result in many crew casualties based on the whole "dividing damage" mechanic) but... can a mech using a piercing weapon target a crew member visible only through a firing port, this focusing all damage that penetrates from the called shot to that one crewman, as in...

"hey... that dwarf behind that firing port must be the one loading the steamcannon... >splurk<"

logically this would require some tricky spot rolls, but would it be mechanically feasible? if so... when making such a called shot at a firing port would the mechs full hardness come into play?

3) mech weapons vs non-mechs: if its in here and i just missed it, forgive me, but i cannot for the life of me find any rules in the dragonmech book that reconcile the differences in armor class when dealing with mechs as opposed to dealing with non-mech targets like o-say... lunar dragons or giants, two types of creatures easily capable of going toe to toe with a mech.

specifically... mech-mech combat emphasizes hardness over armor class, with armor providing damage prevention in the form of its hardness, mech weapons blast away hoping to penetrate... how do mech weapons and to hit rolls resolve against targets without hardness, but with high armor and/or natural armor bonuses (giants in plate mail anyone?), do they convert to hardness somehow? (this could result in high armor/nat armor creatures being fairly invulnerable) do mech-class weapons ignore anything other than hardness. (ouch.. tho i'm tempted to go with this option) or do they have to make a standard attack roll like naybody else (this would result in a LOT of misses with ranged weapons).

thoughts?

[goodmangames]

1) pilot's armor: the description of this armor indicates that it was designed to help protect mechpilots from some of the hazards of mech-on-mech combat, namely weapons piercing the cockpit. there is no description of any mechanic that i can find as to exactly HOW it does this, other than its armor bonus which as far as I can tell doesnt much factor into the mechanics of attacking the crew compartment.

A large part of this is world design -- if you were sitting all day in a hot, sweaty, confined space, would you want to wear chainmail armor? The pilot is protected in the same way he would be with any armor, but pilot's armor is just more comfortable.

2) targeting the crew: the rules for targeting the crew compartments of an enemy mech seem clear enough (though not likely to result in many crew casualties based on the whole "dividing damage" mechanic) but... can a mech using a piercing weapon target a crew member visible only through a firing port, this focusing all damage that penetrates from the called shot to that one crewman, as in...

"hey... that dwarf behind that firing port must be the one loading the steamcannon... >splurk<"

logically this would require some tricky spot rolls, but would it be mechanically feasible? if so... when making such a called shot at a firing port would the mechs full hardness come into play?

We went through a phase of this in my campaign. If you allow called shots to get too specific, it can detract from the mech combat aspect of the game. Suddenly there's almost no reason at all to ever attack the enemy mech directly... instead you just make repeated called shots to the pilot or gunner, and pretty soon the enemy mech is disabled while still completely intact.

And if you use these rules against your players, they become sitting ducks very quickly. It's not pleasant when every opponent you encounter aims for the PC in the pilot seat...

3) mech weapons vs non-mechs: if its in here and i just missed it, forgive me, but i cannot for the life of me find any rules in the dragonmech book that reconcile the differences in armor class when dealing with mechs as opposed to dealing with non-mech targets like o-say... lunar dragons or giants, two types of creatures easily capable of going toe to toe with a mech.

specifically... mech-mech combat emphasizes hardness over armor class, with armor providing damage prevention in the form of its hardness, mech weapons blast away hoping to penetrate... how do mech weapons and to hit rolls resolve against targets without hardness, but with high armor and/or natural armor bonuses (giants in plate mail anyone?), do they convert to hardness somehow? (this could result in high armor/nat armor creatures being fairly invulnerable) do mech-class weapons ignore anything other than hardness. (ouch.. tho i'm tempted to go with this option) or do they have to make a standard attack roll like naybody else (this would result in a LOT of misses with ranged weapons).

thoughts?

I'm not quite sure I follow. Except in the hands of skilled pilots and gunners, mech weapons aren't always that accurate, which is part of the equation. You could always run a mock combat to get a sense of how it plays out... let me know if there's something more specific you're asking...

[mythfish]

1) pilot's armor:

The inside of a mech cockpit is very uncomfortable and wearing anything heavier than padded armor while piloting a mech causes great discomfort. Pilot's armor is designed to provide as much protection as possible while still being comfortable. So when it says it's designed to provide pilots with protection, it simply means providing them with better protection than padded armor.

In a related topic, I don't recall there being any specific rules for what happens if you try to pilot a mech in inappropriate armor, but I'd suggest that piloting a mech in armor would follow the same rules as sleeping in armor...also making the Endurance feat slightly more useful.

2) targeting the crew:

The rules state that "only piercing weapons are capable of reaching deeply enough into the mech to damage the crew..." and also implies that this tactic can only be used on the pilot's and gunner's ports to begin with. By the fact that the rules allow the possibility of every crew member in the area to take damage as well as the mech, I would extrapolate that to mean that mech weapons are too large and cannot be controlled with enough accuracy to attack specific crew members.

If my understanding is correct, however, characters using their own handheld weapons can target specific opposing crew members with a spot roll of 15. But keep in mind that the target will certainly have concealment (which of course makes no difference to a magic missile or lightning bolt...most of the mech combats I ran were ended in this fashion).

3) mech weapons vs non-mechs:

Unless I misunderstand your question, there is nothing to reconcile. Mechs are big and bulky, they are almost impossible to miss, therefore the low armor class. They make up for this disadvantage by having lots of protection in the form of hardness. A lunar dragon doesn't have the advantage of hardness, but it is much more maneuverable and therefore harder to hit.

A mech vs non-mech would make a standard attack roll like anybody else...and I don't think it would result in an inordinate amount of misses. Mechs (especially steam powered ones) are less accurate, and that's just a fact of life. But paging through the mech manual, the largest ranged to hit penalty I saw on any mech was only -4, with most only having -1 or -2...Hardly an insurmountable penalty for even a low-level mechjockey.

Lunar Dragons do have very high armor classes...but that's why only the very best mech pilots ever become DragonMech pilots.

[modus666]

Unless I misunderstand your question, there is nothing to reconcile. Mechs are big and bulky, they are almost impossible to miss, therefore the low armor class. They make up for this disadvantage by having lots of protection in the form of hardness. A lunar dragon doesn't have the advantage of hardness, but it is much more maneuverable and therefore harder to hit.

A mech vs non-mech would make a standard attack roll like anybody else...and I don't think it would result in an inordinate amount of misses. Mechs (especially steam powered ones) are less accurate, and that's just a fact of life. But paging through the mech manual, the largest ranged to hit penalty I saw on any mech was only -4, with most only having -1 or -2...Hardly an insurmountable penalty for even a low-level mechjockey.

Lunar Dragons do have very high armor classes...but that's why only the very best mech pilots ever become DragonMech pilots.

well... my problem with that is that the the impression i got is that part of the idea behind mechs is that it put much greater power in the hands of people without phenomenal cosmic skills and magic powers. hence the decline of traditional magic. why worry about a fireball when the steamcannon with explosive shells handles much the same role. but that logic becomes a bit skewed when you find yourself unable to HIT the very things your mech is designed to fight.

dragons aside... lets put an average mech up against something big and mean but not nearly draconic like o-say, a hill giant.

mech has hardness in its favor, sure, but a low-mid level character is still gonna have a hard time hitting the giants ac 20 in ranged combat. and once it closes, the giant has a bgi advantage in feats usable against the mech (power attack vs ac 2 anyone?)

if this is working as intended, fine, but it just doesnt add up in my head for some reason that mechs should use such a drastically different mechanic than any other combatant. why hardness? maybe if other creatures used an "armor as damage reduction" variant it would make more sense to me... but combining the two just seemed skewed.

[mythfish]

dragons aside... lets put an average mech up against something big and mean but not nearly draconic like o-say, a hill giant.

mech has hardness in its favor, sure, but a low-mid level character is still gonna have a hard time hitting the giants ac 20 in ranged combat. and once it closes, the giant has a bgi advantage in feats usable against the mech (power attack vs ac 2 anyone?)

if this is working as intended, fine, but it just doesnt add up in my head for some reason that mechs should use such a drastically different mechanic than any other combatant. why hardness? maybe if other creatures used an "armor as damage reduction" variant it would make more sense to me... but combining the two just seemed skewed.

I see your point, and I agree that perhaps it is a bit weird especially since D&D as I remember it defines "hitting" as "penetrating armor and causing damage" rather than simply connecting with a weapon...a solid hit that for whatever reason causes no damage falls under the category of "miss" as I understand it. By the logic of mech combat, wearing plate mail should actually lower your armor class but provide damage resistance.

But to the hill giant and a game world defense of mechs. The low level mechjockey in a mech vs a hill giant would be at a bit of a disadvantage as far as hitting goes, yes. But that doesn't mean that mechs don't work as an equalizing force in the world. The 4th level mech jockey in a mech vs a hill giant is still in a much better position than a 4th level warrior or wizard not in a mech. He has the advantage of defense in the form of hardness and craploads of hit points (way more than the hill giant), not to mention that even though he'll miss a fair amount, when he does hit he'll probably do more damage than the warrior or the wizard (though the wizard can auto-hit and do decent damage with spells, he's very limited in the number of times he can do that). I'm guessing the mech pilot would still win the combat, though it would be a long drawn out affair.

From a non-combat setting standpoint, the low level mechjockey has better survivability than the hill giant. I'm betting that due to the lunar rains there probably aren't a lot of giants left on highpoint. They have no natural resistance to the lunar rain, and caves big enough for giants to hide in probably aren't very numerous. While you're correct about putting power in the hands of common people and the decline of magic, that's not the prime reason for mechs...the reason mechs were created is to help survive the lunar rains which is something magic can't do on a large scale. From that viewpoint, it's not all that relevant if a mech has a hard time hitting an opponent because a mech's primary function is not necessarily battle.