DragonMech Questions

[Sword Guy]

Again, this reply comes with a disclaimer: I am not an expert on rules issues, nor do I claim to fully understand the intent of Joseph in rules matters.

That said, I think the answer would be no. It is a good idea, but I think that someone might have to specifically make a weapon for the mech to bypass hardness, even if it was just some combat spikes. Now if the combat spikes on the outside of the mech were adamantine, then I think your question would get a resounding "yes!"

However, taking some info from my previous question about adamantine swords, I think that they would probably bypass the hardness that comes with the armor, not the hardness that comes from a mech being three stories tall. So they would partially bypass hardness, not totally.

In that same vein, would weapons that are mech-sized cost more than 3,000 gp to make into adamantine weapons? Or would they just be given an outer edge of adamantine, which would keep the costs identical?

[goodmangames]

I was just wondering something. I haven't had a chance yet to really read the mech combat rules, but do city-mechs have different rules for combat than normal mechs? If they can only take a step once every four rounds, that at the least would limit their trample ability, wouldn't it? is this covered in the book?

City-mechs use the same basic combat rules as other mechs. If they're moving at full speed, their stride is such that their feet only touch the ground once every several rounds. But I always assumed they could take shorter steps if they wanted to -- for example, if they needed to trample something.

Also, for the spark generator. I noticed that to get multiple dice of damage, you simply stack more of the energy-making devices (see Pilot Light). However, in the spark generator text, it mentions that stacking amplifies makes it do more dice of damage. I thought all amplifiers do is increase the die type of the damage, and the radius of effect? Shouldn't it say "more spark generators" instead of "more amplifiers"? and if so, what would an amplifier do? make it make sparks in a radius?

I have two answers to this question:

First, you're right about the discrepancy between the amplifier-description dice progression, and the description under spark generator; the spark generator uses a different progression.

Second, in general: Amplifiers are pretty open-ended. They increase the power of some form of mechanically-produced energy -- usually another steam power, but, in theory, they can also be applied to mechs, hydraulic armor (as has been discussed in this thread), and other equipment. What exactly they amplify (damage dice, range, Strength bonus, whatever) depends on what they're applied to.

Here are some examples:

Spark Generator: By itself, causes 1d4 nonlethal damage
Spark Generator + Amplifier: Causes 1d4 normal damage
Spark Generator + 2x Amplifier: Causes 2d4 normal damage
Spark Generator + 3x Amplifier: Causes 3d4 normal damage

Pilot Light: By itself, causes 1d4 fire damage, illuminates 5x5 area, ignites fire if target is stationary for 2 rounds
Pilot Light + Amplifier: 1d6 fire damage, illuminates 10x10 area, ignites fire if target is stationary for 1 round
Pilot Light + 2x Amplifier: 1d8 fire damage, illuminates 15x15 area, ignites fire on a successful attack
Pilot Light + 3x Amplifier: 1d10 fire damage, illuminates 20x20 area, ignites fire on a successful attack (At this point, you're dealing in DM discretion on how quickly it lights a fire. You could have it start doing so on a touch attack, but I'd be careful not to let it get too powerful.)

[goodmangames]

Cool. Hey, if you want, when i get some time tomorrow, I could compile all your rulings into a FAQ document for Dragonmech here. If you want, of course. *grins* Since I'm going to be asking a favor anyway, it's the least I can do. Sides, I like building things like FAQs. Let's me learn Adobe more.

Compiling an FAQ is A-OK with me.

[goodmangames]

Also, what would happen if, say, I added a boiler to a steam gun/cannon (to increase the pressure of the steam when it fires) or a pilot light to a flame nozzle?

In regards to rotor arms, wouldn't they affect the two squares to your immediate side, not the two front squares? The way the rules state so far (at least as to how I understand) is that they affect things like this:

Code: Select all

         ------------------------------- 
         |         |         |         | 
         |    *    |         |    *    | 
         |         |         |         | 
         -------------------------------
         |         |         |         | 
         |    ^    |    X    |    ^    | 
         |         |         |         | 
         ------------------------------- 
         |         |         |         | 
         |         |         |         | 
         |         |         |         | 
         -------------------------------

x = you
* = where i interpret the rules to say they hit at
^ = logically, where the rotor blades SHOULD hit.

So basically, is * or ^ correct?

What would multiple rotor arms do, as well? And how do fins help vehicles?

Sorry for all the questions. the rules are fantastic, so I'm trying to get a tighter grasp on them

The way I meant for them to work is to affect the squares marked *. When you were a kid spraying water from a hose on a hot summer day, remember how you'd sometimes swing the hose around in a big circular arc, spraying water in every direction? That's how I envision a rotor arm, except it's rigid metal, and has an arm that extends the point of impact to the squares in front and beside you, instead of right beside you.

That said, I don't see any reason why a coglayer couldn't design a modified version that hits the two squares directly beside him, as you noted above with ^. That would be a little more powerful (it'd definitely be a little more useful, I think), but probably not enough so to be unbalancing.

Multiple rotor arms would just make for a bigger rotor arm, I guess. I don't know what good that would do, though... I guess it depends on what else you combined it with. Got any good ideas?

Fins help vehicles steer, just like real fins. In terms of steam powers, they don't have much use in that regard; the steam power version is more useful for building crazy-cool weapons that shoot around corners.

[goodmangames]

If a Mech is made (armor) of Adamantine, would it's unarmed attack damage ignore the hardness of an opposing Mech unless it was also made of Adamantine?

Technically, any "weapon" made of adamantine ignores hardness less than 20 on any attempt to attack an object. My reading of the DMG (page 283) is that it's because adamantine is so hard it slices through other metals like a hot knife through butter.

Therefore, I think it's safe to say any mech weapon made of adamantine would indeed ignore hardness less than 20 due to the other object being "hard." But mechs have a second tier of hardness, which is due to the mech's size rather than its actual "hardness." This is the size-based hardness modifier shown on table 2-2 in DragonMech (page 72). Adamantine weapons would not ignore this size-based hardness modifier, because regardless of a weapon's cutting edge, the weapon still has to actually reach the infrastructure of the target mech to do any damage.

But your real question is about unarmed attacks. Essentially, you want to know if you get "free" adamantine melee weapons if you build a mech made of adamantine!

My answer would be... yes, according to the rules, it appears you are correct. But it sure seems unbalancing! The x50 cost would offset the ability to some degree. And in my world, I'd probably rule that there simply isn't enough adamantine available to build entire mechs of it beyond sizes of Huge or maybe Gargantuan.

Interestingly, adamantine is supposed to come from meteorites, according to the DMG... maybe the quest for enough adamantine to build a huge mech could tie into the lunar rain somehow...

[Esper]

Thanks for the info about adamantine, it helps alot. However, I do have one more question...

I haven't had the chance to read all the way through the book yet, so this may be in there somewhere, but i was wondering.

How does piloting a mech affect experience gain? is there a level adjustment or something? After all any character in a mech is going to be much more powerful than a character not in a mech... Just wondering how to resolve this.
Thanks
Esper

[MagusRogue (not signed on]

(not logged in, but think I can help)

That I would say would warrent the Easy Encounter penalty to xp. In the DMG, you can adjust encounters based on certain circumstances. While making you more powerful, you still rely on your own skills piloting a mech. A level 1 pilot in a city mech might be quite dangerous, but too inexperienced to really use the mech efficiently.

that said, if having a mech vs non-mech makes the encounter more easy or difficult, adjust it by 1/3. Thus, a group of non-anklebitters fighting a EL equal to their own party EL, but the bag guys are in a powerful mech, and the party wins, increase the xp gained from said encounter by 1/3 to each person. If one of your players has a mech, and walks all over an encounter that should have been harder, decrease his xp by 1/3. Don't penalize others though. If 1 person has a mech, and the other 3 are fighting on foot, only the mech should loose 1/3 xp.

basically, it's up to you on how you handle it.

[mythfish]

In the Shardsfall quest, there is an encounter with 22 orcs while the (probably 2nd level) characters are in their mech. As a point of reference, the encounter level given is 3. As Joseph writes "A horde of orcs this size should normally have an EL much higher than 3! However, in this case, the characters have the advantage of their mech." Whether or not Joseph had some scientific mathematical formula for coming up with that number, I don't know. I'm guessing not.

[goodmangames]

Any idea when the actual release date for the mech manual is yet? I need more large-sized mechs. (I want my fantasy power armor!)

Sorry, I missed this one before. Official on-sale date is February 14.

[goodmangames]

Regarding encounter levels and mechs... that's covered somewhere else around here, too. The short version is: your guess is as good as mine! I don't have any scientific version for figuring it out. A mech almost always makes an encounter easier, but it depends on the size of the mech and who the opponent is. The Shardsfall Quest encounter against 22 orcs is a prime example of how much a difference a mech can make -- although in my playtest, the orcs actually managed to topple the mech. The rogue who was sharpshooting out of a porthole fell out of the mech when it hit the ground (narrowly making his Ref save to avoid getting crushed by the falling mech). There was a moment there where it seemed like the PCs might actually lose the rogue to the orc horde, before some well-timed tramples saved the day. It's a judgment call. I wish I could provide something more scientific, but, well, I always just eyeballed it!

[Esper]

Does the section about repairing mechs in the dragonmech book apply to animated mechs as well, or is there another way to repair them?

Esper

[MagusRogue]

ok, so if amplifiiers increase the damage dice of spark generators, then would multiple spark generators increase the dice type of a spark generator attack?

for instance:

Spark Generator x2
Amplifier x3

would this, then, make it do 2d6 points of electric damage? or 1d10? *still trying to figure this one out*

[mythfish]

ok, so if amplifiiers increase the damage dice of spark generators, then would multiple spark generators increase the dice type of a spark generator attack?

for instance:

Spark Generator x2
Amplifier x3

would this, then, make it do 2d6 points of electric damage? or 1d10? *still trying to figure this one out*

I'd say it's up to the GM, but it seems logical to me that you could stack spark generators to increase the die type given the odd effect of amplifiers on it.

If it comes up in my campaign I think I'm simply going to house rule it so it follows normal damage progression with amplifiers, and cannot be made to do lethal damage.

[goodmangames]

Does the section about repairing mechs in the dragonmech book apply to animated mechs as well, or is there another way to repair them?

Animated mechs are repaired using the Craft (mechcraft) feat. If the mech is sufficiently similar to a golem or traditional construct (and most animated mechs are), it can also be repaired using the Craft Construct feat (from page 303 of the Monster Manual). I don't think it states this anywhere in DragonMech, but one of the players in my group decided to try it and it makes sense to me.

[goodmangames]

ok, so if amplifiiers increase the damage dice of spark generators, then would multiple spark generators increase the dice type of a spark generator attack?

for instance:

Spark Generator x2
Amplifier x3

would this, then, make it do 2d6 points of electric damage? or 1d10? *still trying to figure this one out*

I'd say it's up to the GM, but it seems logical to me that you could stack spark generators to increase the die type given the odd effect of amplifiers on it.

If it comes up in my campaign I think I'm simply going to house rule it so it follows normal damage progression with amplifiers, and cannot be made to do lethal damage.

I think mythfish has it on this one: it's up to GM. Whatever follows logically and doesn't unbalance the game should work fine. What you suggested above (amplifiers for damage dice, and spark generators for dice type) sounds good to me.

The steam power rules are like Magic cards... there's always going to be some combination you didn't see coming. Sometimes it's a cool idea... other times it unbalances the game!

[Mad Cat]

Well, so this is the place for the questions! I've probably missed it! Sorry.

I have an issue about steam cannons and amplifiers/boilers.
Can I add an amplifier to a steam cannon/gun? The amplifier description says taht every form of energy can be used..so, even the kinetic energy of steam? I will say yes...

And about boilers, if I add a boiler to a steam cannon/gun what effect will comw out? Double damage? (2d10) more shots? (+1 for every boiler).
Can you give me an *official* opinion?

Thanks for the help guys!

[mythfish]

Well, so this is the place for the questions! I've probably missed it! Sorry.

I have an issue about steam cannons and amplifiers/boilers.
Can I add an amplifier to a steam cannon/gun? The amplifier description says taht every form of energy can be used..so, even the kinetic energy of steam? I will say yes...

And about boilers, if I add a boiler to a steam cannon/gun what effect will comw out? Double damage? (2d10) more shots? (+1 for every boiler).
Can you give me an *official* opinion?

Thanks for the help guys!

Logically, I have no problem with applying an amplifier to a steam gun. Doubling the damage seems a reasonable outcome of adding a boiler to a steamgun. But from a balance standpoint I'm not sure. A first level coglayer could easily have a steamgun with both an amplifier and a boiler on it, for 2d12 damage. That seems like a lot for first level.

It also seems reasonable to me that instead of doubling the damage, a boiler might allow steam pressure to build up more quickly so a steam gun could be fired every round.

[Reese]

Any idea when the actual release date for the mech manual is yet? I need more large-sized mechs. (I want my fantasy power armor!)

Sorry, I missed this one before. Official on-sale date is February 14.

heh, feeling the love (nice valentines day gift!)

Well, so this is the place for the questions! I've probably missed it! Sorry.

I have an issue about steam cannons and amplifiers/boilers.
Can I add an amplifier to a steam cannon/gun? The amplifier description says taht every form of energy can be used..so, even the kinetic energy of steam? I will say yes...

And about boilers, if I add a boiler to a steam cannon/gun what effect will comw out? Double damage? (2d10) more shots? (+1 for every boiler).
Can you give me an *official* opinion?

Thanks for the help guys!

Logically, I have no problem with applying an amplifier to a steam gun. Doubling the damage seems a reasonable outcome of adding a boiler to a steamgun. But from a balance standpoint I'm not sure. A first level coglayer could easily have a steamgun with both an amplifier and a boiler on it, for 2d12 damage. That seems like a lot for first level.

It also seems reasonable to me that instead of doubling the damage, a boiler might allow steam pressure to build up more quickly so a steam gun could be fired every round.

logically, no an amplifier, which amplifies non-physical energy, would not work on a steam gun, which uses mechanical energy

however, a boiler would have an effect, since a boiler is designed to enhance physical energy output (for anything that has a rate in it's function such as speed per round, a fly wheel could also be used, but that's besides the point)

[MagusRogue]

as i said in the other thread, the way I handle Stream Cannons and Guns with boilers is that the extra output means they have to build less steam, allowing for multiple attacks without having to wait for it to build.

[mythfish]

logically, no an amplifier, which amplifies non-physical energy, would not work on a steam gun, which uses mechanical energy

however, a boiler would have an effect, since a boiler is designed to enhance physical energy output (for anything that has a rate in it's function such as speed per round, a fly wheel could also be used, but that's besides the point)

Eh, in retrospect you're probably right. I was buying the kinetic energy argument at first, but re-reading the amplifier I think that's definitely not the intent. I'd probably still allow it, though, if one of my players argued hard enough for it.

[Mad Cat]

Thanks for the help people!
So the amplifer\steam cannon thing is not so clear..all is about deciding if kinetic energy is or not a form of energy! In the amplifier entry it is said that any for of energy can be used, but is still not very clear.
I think that an aplifier on a steam cannon will work like a volumetric compressor or turbo does on a car engine...amplifing power through amplifing the air mass that the engine can use!

However I see that everyone is with me in saying thatthe boiler works withe the cannon, right?

[Reese]

certainly the boilier would work with the steam cannon

bear in mind, of course, taht steam powers do add to the size of anything they are added to, and a medium steam gun would become large in size if a boiler were added

[Mad Cat]

Eh Eh I know the size increment rule!
My little gnome will only use steam cannons with boiler built with the "integrated parts" thing!

But his mech can use bigger boilers!

[Levin]

Hello folks!

I just read through Dragonmech (DM) and Shardsfall Quest (SQ) and I have some questions concerning Highpoint's history and population.

Okay, in the DM it's stated that Shar Thizdic had the idea of building a city-mech from the dwarfs of Duerok, specifically he heard about the workings of Parilus and decided to make one city-mech for humans (p. 175). All this happened after the assault againts Rook in which he lost his family and his home (p. 156), so he wasn't a teenager, when he started organizing what later became the Legion. Considering that Parilus vanished a hundred years ago, at which time the City-mechs were more and more famous by the day, Shar should be quiet old. If he was born in the year, when - after having built Durgan-Lok - Parilus vanished, he is still 100 years old. (I think, the text of DM indicates the contrary, namely, that he was born before Parilus left Duerok: "They [the traditional engineers of Edge whom he talked about building a new city-mech] too had heard of what Parilus was doing" [DM 175].) That means he is 69 in Earth-years ('cause Highpoint's year is 252 days long), so according to the PHB approaching the Venerable age (and this is a bit of a fudging, because in the PHB nowhere is stated, that I must count the age categories in Earth-years). How could he survived the lunar dragons, the political fighting that surely took place, the attrition and all that? Or - if we count the years according to the calendar of Highpoint - at 100 years, how is he alive at all?

Also, what happened to the citizens and authorities of the ruined cities: where do they went? How many of them remained? If any sizeable portion of any city-state's folk are still together, do they want to return to their former home?

Also, based on the numbers in chapter 4. of DM, I started to think about the percentage of the various races in the population of Highpoint. (It seemed important 'cause in this way my party would know which races are rare and which are common, and I can as well base my NPC-s on it). According to the current theory 30 % of the total population are dwarfs, 20% are gnomes, 35 % humans, and the remaining 15 % is shared by elves, halflings and orks (these were the humanoid races mentioned in the description of Highpoint in the DM). Are these numbers OK or need changing? If so, what are the real percentages?

And lastly, since Highpoint is a watery world, there are amphibious variants of humans, dwarves, elves and many other races. For example how many humans are amphibious related to the total number of humans on Highpoint? And these amphibious humans aren't the Slathem are they? If the percentage of amphibious variants is large, what were they doing against the lunar rain and the dragons? What are they doing now, in the Second Age of Walkers?

[I know that I can answer to these questions in my own campaign however I like, I'm just curious about the official rulings.]
So, Joseph (if I may call you on your first name), would you be so kind and write a timeline sketch and some percentages?

Thank you in advance,

Levin

[Ken Hart]

Levin,

Good questions. If Joseph doesn't mind, I'll take a stab at dealing with Shar's age. I think the upcoming Second Age of Walkers clarifies (I hesitate to use the word "fixes"!) this a bit. Shar did learn of the development of mechs by the dwarves in the west and he did hook up with dwarven mechanics in Edge, but the line on p. 175 of DM ("They, too, had heard of what Parilus was doing") should probably be more in the past tense, as Parilus was gone by then, with the bulk of mech development now being done by the first Gearwrights.

Physically, I'd put Shar in his early to mid-60s (Earth years), but he clearly uses Harrison Ford's trainer. As for how he's survived the dangers of Highpoint for so long, I like to think that he's simply made of tougher stuff than 99% of the populace. (He reminds me a bit of Blake for the British series Blake's 7: courageous, resourceful, intelligent, somewhat ruthless, and determined not to let little things like facts get in the way of proving that his way is right.)

If you want to attribute his longevity to something other than a good constitution and sheer luck, well, there's certainly a big gap in his life when he journeyed across the endless plains, so who knows if he found something in his travels that may have extended his lifespan? That could be the basis for a mini-campaign of its own, as Highpoint's equivalents to Mulder & Scully attempt to retrace Shar's historical footsteps.

--Ken