DragonMech Questions

[Ken Hart]

I have a question about the example given by you, Ken. I know that the special qualities of both the bolts and the crossbow stack, but the enhancement bonuses don't, right? I don't think enhancement bonuses stack, but I was just asking to be sure.

I think you're idea sounds right for the first example, Ken. For the second one, just checking here, I'd end up with a +2 ghost touch keen drill, right?

For current purposes of this argument, yes to both. Enhancement bonuses from ammo do not stack with bonus from the ranged weapon; you take the higher one. Reese and MagusRogue make good points, so I'll have to give that more thought when I can type more freely without my cat sleeping across my shoulders.

[Guest]

Was this class intended to be impossible to finish pre-epic? With a prerequisite skill ranks of 17 in mech pilot, the earliest someone could take this 10 level class is 14th level. Is this intentional?

[JonnySpaz]

I have a number of questions.
1) Force generators. In the description, it says it can create a 2ft cube of force. It also says that amplifiers double its aree. So, does that mean that with two ampifiers it would cover an 8ft cube? Or would that be a 6ft cube? Also, lets say my character has this contraption on around him. Do you use the 10AC of the force field until the force field is destroyed, or do you only worry about attacks that would hit the character without the force field? Also, how long is the force field disabled after its hit points are lost?

2) Spirit Mechs. In the 2nd Age of Walkers, it talks about the creation of spirit mechs. I was wondering, does the spell Ferrous Soul allow the creation of Spirit Mechs as well? Just curious on how that worked.

3) Maintaining Steam Powers. It is my understanding that anyone that has steam powers can maintain the number of steam powers on the coglayer chart, whether or not they in fact made those steam powers. So, I was wondering, could a 20th level steamborg that put all his artificial parts bonuses into raising his attack bonus (giving him an attack bonus of +25) be able to make hundreds of automated crossbows with a +25 attack and just have a small army of low level coglayers maintain them?

[Sword Guy]

Again, let me say that I am no expert.

That said, I believe that the answer to your first question is that it would not be either size. Though the amplifier doubles the area, a cube of twice the sides on all sides is not twice the area. The calculations (according to me), go like this:

Ten square feet base force generator output
Twenty square feet with one amplifier
Fourty square feet with two amplifiers

So, by my estimates, the force generator with two amplifiers would produce a cube of 4 X 4 X 10, which is a lot less than a cube of 8 X 8 X 8. I've made the same mistake on a lot of stuff before. It's way more complicated than it ought to be. But that's math for you.

As for your third question, I think that the coglayers maintaining them would be unable to keep them at that level of efficiency. Both for balance reasons and in-game reasons, I'd rule that the machines they maintain go down to their own BAB. So, in my game at least, the answer is no.

The second one I can't answer. I can't get my hands on a copy of that book, no matter how hard I try.

[JonnySpaz]

thanks for your answers, they have been helpful.
My 1st level Gnomish Coglayer just gave himself a 4X4X10 forcefield, pretty much making him invulnurable from all sides

[Reese]

don't want to sink your idea or anything, but...

the force generator creates a 2 foot square, not a cube, which can be shaped as desired

(you could make a hollow cube out of it, though, which would be between 9 and 10 inches on a side...*)


*[Proofs:
2 feet = 24 inches; 24^2 = 576 square inches
576/6 = 96; 9^2 = 81; 10^2 = 100]

i was under the impression that most things with coglaying improved arithmetically, just like crit bonuses
(a doubled doubling being a trippling, or each amplifyer adding 1x again the original amount wihtout any amplifyers)

[JonnySpaz]

Actually, in the description it says you can make it a cube if desired.
A related question for anybody, I know that Goodman said in an earlier thread that it takes 30 damage in one hit to punch through a force generator's effect, and that it then just closes right up after, good as new. Anybody else think that is completely unbalanced? DR 30 at low levels is rediculous, even for Dragon Mech.

[Reese]

ah, you're right, my bad ^_^'

it's still a hollow cube, though

[Sword Guy]

Well, I think that the force generator isn't quite as overpowered as you think it is. True, DR 30 at first level is ridiculous, but the force generator isn't exactly DR 30. Examples:

Say a mech uses even a Gargantuan steam cannon with explosive shells on you. Not only do you get hit by the shell that pierces the force generator field, but the force generator field (I would rule, in any case) contains the explosion and intensifies it. So lots and lots of damage that way.

DR stops even attacks from incorporeal creatures. A force generator does not. An incorporeal creature can just slide under the force wall and start slashing, no problem.

Force generators cannot cover the whole of your body all the time, unless you expand it outward to cover the area around you as well. And when you do that, you basically invite enemies to cast area-effects spells like cloudkill inside your field.

And finally, the field can be ripped apart much more easily with either a buzzsaw or an adamantine sword. They both would ignore the hardness of the wall (by my interpretation) therefore making it much more easy to simply slash through the thing. A fighter can, at 5th level with the right feats, do well over twenty points of damage in a round with a good roll. Unless the field is several feet out from your body, the greatsword (or whatever) will simply extend through the field to hit you.

But those are all just examples, and I know someone's going to object to them as good examples. These are only my opinions, not official rulings, I'm not sure that my way of looking at the rules is right, and I'm biased towards DragonMech as a whole. This isn't a perfect answer. But it is what I think.

[Dude]

If a 10th level mech jock has the mechidextrous feat, does he attack with one weapon for 7/2 and ANOTHER weapon for 7/2 or are both weapons fired on the list of attack bonuses, such as the first weapon firing with a 7 bonus and the second reciving a 2?

(which to me seems kinda pointless, especially since steam cannons can fire as many times as their operator's mech attack bonus)

[Alekzandr]

sorry, "Dude" was me. I did not properly log in .

[goodmangames]

If a 10th level mech jock has the mechidextrous feat, does he attack with one weapon for 7/2 and ANOTHER weapon for 7/2 or are both weapons fired on the list of attack bonuses, such as the first weapon firing with a 7 bonus and the second reciving a 2?

Mechidextrous doesn't give you an extra attack. It just lets you use different weapons in the same round. It's like being able to talk on your cell phone and drive your car at the same time, except it's more like being able to talk on your cell phone, write in your Palm Pilot, AND drive your car at the same time. If your mech has a steam cannon and that's all you ever use, you don't need the feat. But if your mech has a steam cannon and a big sword, and you need to use both in the same round, your pilot's gonna be fumbling with controls as he attempts to do... unless he has this feat.

Does that make sense?

It looks like I missed a couple posts up above with other questions... if there's anything I should have answered but missed, please feel free to point it out!

[Mad Cat]

A question about Steam powers and PU usage.
In the DragonMech base manual, the "preambulatoy orc" mech have a huge ballista (PU 4) with an automator and an animator...but in it's payload usage table these items aren't present!
That automator will use 2 PU...or steam powers dosen't use PU?

And

What is the payload usage for a steam power built for a gargantuan weapon? for example, an anplifier for a medium user will use 1 PU
but an amplifier for a gargantuan user?
I think that using the weight multiplier wil work pretty well!
For example: a standard amplifier have a numerical dimension of 6 (tiny)
Multiplied *4 (the gargantuan weight multiplier) it become 24 (medium).
What do you think?

[goodmangames]

A question about Steam powers and PU usage.
In the DragonMech base manual, the "preambulatoy orc" mech have a huge ballista (PU 4) with an automator and an animator...but in it's payload usage table these items aren't present!
That automator will use 2 PU...or steam powers dosen't use PU?

That's a good catch. In general I've always treated steam powers as not counting toward PU (since they're like a character's sword or staff or armor), but the automator's size is relative to what it's attached to. In this case we'll say Smiggenbopper was such a fabulous engineer that he managed to build the PU into the ballista chassis... but in general, yes, something of such significant PU should be counted.

What is the payload usage for a steam power built for a gargantuan weapon? for example, an anplifier for a medium user will use 1 PU but an amplifier for a gargantuan user?
I think that using the weight multiplier wil work pretty well!
For example: a standard amplifier have a numerical dimension of 6 (tiny)
Multiplied *4 (the gargantuan weight multiplier) it become 24 (medium).
What do you think?

My comparison would be... if a human coglayer with a couple steam powers boarded a mech, would you count the PU of his sword, armor, and amplifier? Generally, no. Well, what if an ogre boarded a mech? Still no; his personal PU includes general personal equipment. Same for a giant or halfling or anything else that boards a mech. When it comes to steam powers attached to weapons, in general they can be considered part of the weapon's own payload usage. Only in cases where the steam power is of significant size on its own (like the automator example you mentioned) does it matter.

(Also keep in mind that a "Medium" weapon takes up much less PU than a "Medium" humanoid. See page 113 of the PHB (under "Weapon Size") and page 123 of DragonMech (middle column) for an explanation of this.)

[Guest]

Well, thanhs for the help!
This changes all my thinking about mech construction!
So, if I build a gargantuan mech (10 PU) with 5 Extra weapon mounts (15 PU in total)...
And I equip it with a gargantuan ballista (8 PU) with an automator, animator and two boilers and two amplifiers I can count only the payload usage of the automator+animator?
Before this, I was in dire need of integrated parts special abilities!

[Mad Cat]

Sorry for the post above...Like always I forgot to log in!

[Sword Guy]

Before this, I was in dire need of integrated parts special abilities!

Um . . . yeah. That's a little thing I just found out recently. I've been rereading the entry for integrated parts, and I found a little thing which might make a bit of difference . . .

Integrating two parts doesn't affect the size, just the weight. Or at least, that's how I just reread it. It only makes the second piece weigh less, not shrink. But I'm not sure if I've got it right.

Could someone please clear up for me if integrated parts affects anything more than the weight?

[Dr Hellion]

Well hello from Denmark, which is not the capital of Sweden.

Ahem location aside, I have som questions to some thins me and my players have been wonderinge about.

Recently my players made first leve characters for a new Dragonmech campaign I am starting. One of my players who played a sorcerer asked me if Grease could affect Mechs... and actually i couldn't provide an answer right away. So now I ask the same question in her, can Grease affect an mech?

Another question under the Steampower Darkness generator it says the it quenches affected light sources, does that mean that it puts out fire?

Last can a dwarf use a Chattersword, I can quite figure out Mr Goodmans Excell Spreadsheet.

By the way will we see a Dragonmech monsterbook, I could imagine some crafty Gearwrights(perhaps also a bit sadistic) put steamborg implants into animals.

[Reese]

Recently my players made first leve characters for a new Dragonmech campaign I am starting. One of my players who played a sorcerer asked me if Grease could affect Mechs... and actually i couldn't provide an answer right away. So now I ask the same question in her, can Grease affect an mech?

i don't know about having any sort of secondary effect that's mech specific, but there's no reason grease shouldn't effect mechs the same way it does everyone else... granted, most mechs could not be disarmed by having thier weapons greased up, since they are generally connected.

Another question under the Steampower Darkness generator it says the it quenches affected light sources, does that mean that it puts out fire?

quenches as in the darkness spell, the light source is still there, it's just not capable of providing light

Last can a dwarf use a Chattersword, I can quite figure out Mr Goodmans Excell Spreadsheet.

there's no reason a dwarf couldn't use a chatter sword; dwarves are medium sized creatures,a nd the chatter sword is a large weapon, meaning it requires two hands to wield if you are medium sized
(it's essentially the 3rd edition size rules, which make more sence than the 3.5 rules, to me, because they can be applied universally)

[goodmangames]

So, if I build a gargantuan mech (10 PU) with 5 Extra weapon mounts (15 PU in total)...
And I equip it with a gargantuan ballista (8 PU) with an automator, animator and two boilers and two amplifiers I can count only the payload usage of the automator+animator?

That's correct. The full package you listed above would take up 12 payload units (8 for ballista + 4 for automator).

[goodmangames]

Could someone please clear up for me if integrated parts affects anything more than the weight?

Integrated parts is like fantasy engineering gone haywire. It's like building a VCR casette player into your cell phone, or combining a washing machine and dryer into the same device... it's all the crazy ideas that seem impossible but work in a fantasy game. The ability definitely affects the weight, and could also affect dimensions within reasonable limits. It's up to your DM and the specifics of the situation. To use real world examples, you obviously couldn't integrate a washing machine into a cell phone and make the final device the same size as a cell phone... but you might be able to create a machine that really does both wash and dry using the same chassis, effectively combining the space of a washing machine and dryer. So... it all depends. Does that help at all?

[goodmangames]

Recently my players made first leve characters for a new Dragonmech campaign I am starting. One of my players who played a sorcerer asked me if Grease could affect Mechs... and actually i couldn't provide an answer right away. So now I ask the same question in her, can Grease affect an mech?

i don't know about having any sort of secondary effect that's mech specific, but there's no reason grease shouldn't effect mechs the same way it does everyone else... granted, most mechs could not be disarmed by having thier weapons greased up, since they are generally connected.

Reese covered most of these but just to follow up on the grease question: Yes, grease affects mechs. Mechs are just like any other object. If you mean, "Can I trip up a city-mech with a simple casting of a grease spell?" -- note that the spell only affects an area 10 feet to a side, smaller than the footprint of most large mechs, so they're not going to be slipping on it. If you mean, "Can I cast it on the oustide of a mech to keep it from being boarded?" -- yes, you can. On page 93 of DragonMech there is listed a modifier to Climb checks to board a mech whose legs are oiled (+4, to be exact); you could apply the same modified for a greased mech.

[Mad Cat]

I was wondering...there are some plans for an Epic Level book of dragon mech?

[Reese]

that maybe a bad idea...

"my level 60 anklebiter jumps onto nedderpik and removes a screw"
*some dice rolling and checks*
"Nedderpik topples to the ground in pieces"

[Mad Cat]

That`s because you have used a standard level mech against an epic level, super-hero style character!
Epic level charachters need epic level mech!
Something like the monster you find in the epic level book...

"My level 60 anklebiter jumps on an epic level mech"
"Dice rollings..."
"The mech grabs the anklebiter and squash he to pulp with its planar energy powered fist of death!"

Or similar stuff...