DragonMech Questions

[Snake]

Yea, Rapid Reload, my mistake, arg! Thanks!

Awsome stuff to work with, lemme know about recharging. At the moment I'm just running with using a tiny bit of XP to do so. Which I convert into energy for a system(my characters hate losing XP).

Oh, and since I know more about Steam Cannons, I have a Steam Cannon on huge clockwork mech(which requires one pilot). Does it require 2 people to run the steam cannon?

[Reese]

another one... are there any adverse effects for wearing armor inside of a mech?

the pilot armor implies that there is, but i'm wondering if that's just flavor text...

what are the effects on the pilots/passengers of a large (say, city or taller) mech tripping and falling... do they take falling damage? (based on what level of the mech they're on?) no effect?

what would it take to have an realistic chance at tripping a city sized mech, anyway, and can multiple pilots make cooperative mech piloting checks to get it back on it's feet?

if a mech contains steam power gadgets, and the descriptions suggests that a pilot with open steam powers is nessesary to maintain them, could a non-pilot maintain the steam powers instead? (say, and NPC coglayer or fellow party member) i would assume so, but just checking

does adamantine's ability to ignore hardness less than 20(p283 in the DMG) extend to mechs, or only partialy, or not at all?
*idea to arm a mech killing mech with adamantine blades*

(all questions beyond this point are only half serious)

what kind of damage would the mech itself suffer if it fell(refering to the mech falling quesiton earlier in this post)?

after all, the head of a city mech has hundreds of feet to fall, though i would assume that the body being under it slows the fall somewhat...

(not even trying to be serious at this point, don't need them answered... and some sleep on my part would be a good idea)

if a mech falls in the woods, and there's no one there to steal it, does it make a crash?

what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

[goodmangames]

My god, man, you have a lot of questions!

another one... are there any adverse effects for wearing armor inside of a mech?

the pilot armor implies that there is, but i'm wondering if that's just flavor text...

Yes, check page 69 under "Inside a Mech."

what are the effects on the pilots/passengers of a large (say, city or taller) mech tripping and falling... do they take falling damage? (based on what level of the mech they're on?) no effect?

what would it take to have an realistic chance at tripping a city sized mech, anyway, and can multiple pilots make cooperative mech piloting checks to get it back on it's feet?

Hmmm, that's a good question. No one ever tripped a city-mech in my campaign! I always assumed that combat mechs had frames or harnesses that held the crew in position (like a Nascar vehicle), so the crew usually didn't take any falling damage when the mech was tripped. But mechs with civilian crew probably wouldn't be so equipped. However, the ceiling height on most city-mechs is quite low -- they were designed for dwarves, remember -- so the furthest anyone would fall would probably be a tumble down the hallway before they get jammed into a corner somewhere and held fast while the mech comes down. I'd rule that unsecured crew onboard take 1d6 to 3d6 damage from being bounced about (maybe with a Reflex save for half) but no more.

As for multiple pilots making cooperative Mech Pilot skill checks, I'd rule that's OK only when the controls allow it. In every mech I ever created, there was one chair for each function. In a small mech, that meant one chair for the pilot; in a city-mech, that meant one chair for the guy who controlled the left leg, one for the right leg, one for the cannon on the left leg, one for the cannon on the right leg, etc. If the controls to a mech were such that coordination could help it stand up (as might be the case in a city-mech) then perhaps a few pilots could assist. But there would probably never be more than 1 or 2 in a position to help.

Also remember that city-mechs are huge... HUGE... they're like medieval castles, only much larger, mobile, and with lots of guns attached. In general, nothing attacks them in a head-on fight. Skirmishers might try to raid the lower levels, or peel off some metal plates to sell on the black market, or sneak onboard as stowaways, but there aren't many head-to-head battles. The only combatants really equipped to fight a city-mech head-on are other city-mechs, which still don't do so because they have a civilian crew to protect.

if a mech contains steam power gadgets, and the descriptions suggests that a pilot with open steam powers is nessesary to maintain them, could a non-pilot maintain the steam powers instead? (say, and NPC coglayer or fellow party member) i would assume so, but just checking

Yes, as long as there's a coglayer somewhere on the crew to maintain them, that's OK. Don't go overboard, though; coglayers are more common than they used to be, but they're still supposed to be rare professionals with great knowledge. They design mechs and instruct teams of common laborers on how to build them. A mech with a crew that's entirely NPC coglayers so the mech can be tricked out with steam powers isn't realistic.

does adamantine's ability to ignore hardness less than 20(p283 in the DMG) extend to mechs, or only partialy, or not at all?
*idea to arm a mech killing mech with adamantine blades*

It would apply to the portion of mech hardness that's due to materials (DragonMech p. 80), but not the portion that's due to size (DragonMech p. 72). That's because the size portion of hardness represents the sheer amount of space between the hull of a mech and the innards. A city-mech might have scaffolding, structural supports, and even empty space for a good 20 or 30 feet inward of its hull, making it far more difficult for an attacker to do damage to anything important. Adamantine weapons wouldn't help in that situation.

(all questions beyond this point are only half serious)

Good, some easy ones for a change.

what kind of damage would the mech itself suffer if it fell(refering to the mech falling quesiton earlier in this post)?

after all, the head of a city mech has hundreds of feet to fall, though i would assume that the body being under it slows the fall somewhat...

(not even trying to be serious at this point, don't need them answered... and some sleep on my part would be a good idea)

if a mech falls in the woods, and there's no one there to steal it, does it make a crash?

what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

40d20!!!

[Ken Hart]

and slaadi dammit....they're loads of fun and would LOVE highpoint.....or at least the moon as a fun place to play

Absolutely -- and just because slaadi and mind flayers can't be mentioned in the DragonMech books doesn't mean you can't use them in your home campaign!

[Jaxom Faux]

Of Course! i just won't tell WOTC.....hehe *Shhhhhhhh*

[Sword Guy (Guest version)]

Until the email on the account gets changed, I'm a guest, but . . .

A major focus in my campaign is the Legion growing stronger. I had a batch of PCs who all wanted to play semi-unusual characters, so I created a single City-mech C for a new faction, called the Alloyed Nation.

The beginning of the campaign was a joint strike by Haven and Rebirth against this mech. The City Killer cannon did a total of 378 points of damage inside of two minutes (gotta love those criticals) and the critical threshold roll came up "Gyroscope damage." So, I determined that the city-mech would keel over in best dramatic fashion. Most of the PCs were actually trying to open portholes during this, so I simply told them all to take 3d4 subdual damage as they were slammed against the wall.

One of them, however, was trying to get out through a porthole next to the beginnings of the gear forest. He made the Reflex save to avoid falling directly into the gears, but took 2d8 lethal damage from being slammed around a lot.

On another note, I actually had the School of Aurora Walkers transport to the Astral Plane because of a mishap with an experiment. There, githyanki took over the fortress and killed everyone there. They discovered the tomes to bring the School back to Highpoint, but don't wish to do so until they can be guarenteed of the sucess of an invasion. So, they send out riftwalker "spies" to infiltrate places and destroy specific parts. Any comments? Slaadi would have been fun, but they aren't organized enough.

[Sword Guy (Guest version)]

Okay, I have a question about the Mechcraft DC for creating mechs. If I (as a coglayer), were to create a mech, and then tried to make a Mechcraft check to see if it worked, how could I possibly get that high unless I was at high levels.

For example:

If I wanted to create a Gargantuan Clockwork mech (similar to the Viper in design) I would have to suceed at a Mechcraft check of 48. To do that with a reasonable chance of sucess (rolling a ten or higher) I would need to be somewhere up in 17th or 18th level. That seems a bit unreasonable, so I wanted to ask:

Are other coglayers allowed to make Assist Other checks? (I would still need, if I was at 7th level, to get 10 or more coglayers with sucessful checks to help me.)

Are different coglayers allowed to make checks for different portions of the mech, possibly at a time increase?

Are the workers themselves making the required Assist Other checks? (Seems to be reasonable, as enough would fail to make the mech sufficiently difficult to build)

Or are we just supposed to hope for natural 20s?

Thanks,
Sword Guy

[Sword Guy (Guest version)]

Okay, another question. If I were to launch a Magnet Bomb from a Bomb Launcher, what kind of modifiers would I give it for actually orienting the right way? I was thinking 65%, since there's a 50-50 chance it goes the right way, but the magnets can correct some errors.

Also, what would be the kind of rules for creating Bomb Launchers of substandard size (for personal use)?

Finally, and this is only a semi-serious question, could I use the Wonderous Item, Gauntlet of Rust, to protect my mech from rust. And if I did, could I then mount ten linked bomb launchers loaded with rust bombs? Expensive, sure, but the next mech I bear-hug will be a pile of oxidized iron at my feet.

[Sword Guy (Guest version)]

Sorry about missing question marks sometimes . . . I'm not in the most awake of moods right now. That, and I'm trying to balance a soda, a keyboard, and a DragonMech book on my lap.

Gah, the bindings on my book are wearing from so much flipping.

[Sword Guy (Guest version)]

Wow, my brain is justing sparking with ideas tonight.

If I had an adamantine short sword, and I took levels in the anklebiter class, could I technically use the Sunder ability to literally carve open the mech? My guess would be yes, but that it might take several rounds to cut through enough bulkhead to let me in. Hardness from size wouldn't apply (I don't think) because I'm not trying to penetrate the hardness of the mech, just the hardness of the armor. Or would this be a situation where it would reduce the break DC considerably?

[Sword Guy (Guest version)]

What plane would Dotrak come into being on? I would assume Mechanus, since it is not only the gearworks for the universe but also a lawful plane. But Dotrak is a neutral deity, yet machines sound lawful when applied to a traditional fantasy campaign.

After Dotrak comes into being as a full deity, will he be able to grant powers to clerics? If so, will the clerics of Dotrak be affected by the same type of spell problems that plauge non-Dotrakeon priests?

Will there be paladins of Dotrak wearing hydraulic armor? Will clockwork rangers form a small arm of the Church of Dotrak?

Or is the answer to all these questions "personal preference?" I don't mind if it is, but the first two paragraphs have some meaningful queries in them.

[goodmangames]

I love the idea of the Aurora Walkers being overtaken by githyanki.

Okay, I have a question about the Mechcraft DC for creating mechs. If I (as a coglayer), were to create a mech, and then tried to make a Mechcraft check to see if it worked, how could I possibly get that high unless I was at high levels.

For example:

If I wanted to create a Gargantuan Clockwork mech (similar to the Viper in design) I would have to suceed at a Mechcraft check of 48. To do that with a reasonable chance of sucess (rolling a ten or higher) I would need to be somewhere up in 17th or 18th level. That seems a bit unreasonable, so I wanted to ask:

You're right, the PC has to be a high level coglayer, or a mid-level Gearwright, before they can start building large mechs with a good chance of success. Coglayers add their class level as a bonus to Mechcraft checks. So hitting a DC 48 check 50% of the time wouldn't be possible till around 18th level...

- Take class + 3 ranks in Craft (mechcraft), or 21 ranks
- Add coglayer class level, or +18
- Net modifier is +39

Taking levels in the Gearwright PrC further increases these odds, as maintenors add twice their Gearwright level past 6th level to Mechcraft checks.

And there are ability bonuses, feats like Skill Focus, the dwarven racial bonus, etc.

That said, the larger mechs, particularly city-mechs, are designed to be out of reach of all but the best Gearwrights. The Gearwright ability to take 30 brings certain DCs within reach. Steam powers and smaller mechs are the province of "everyday" coglayers; the reason there are fewer large mechs, and only a handful of city-mechs, is because they truly are heroic creations.

Are other coglayers allowed to make Assist Other checks? (I would still need, if I was at 7th level, to get 10 or more coglayers with sucessful checks to help me.)

I'd rule that a single higher-level coglayer could assist (sort of like a mentor showing his apprentice how to do things), but no more than one such assistant would be helpful.

Are different coglayers allowed to make checks for different portions of the mech, possibly at a time increase?

Hmm, that's interesting. You could maybe do something like that, but I'd say there still has to be a single "master" Mechcraft check for the mech design, which represents the primary creator's ability to bring it all together into something that actually functions cohesively.

[goodmangames]

Okay, another question. If I were to launch a Magnet Bomb from a Bomb Launcher, what kind of modifiers would I give it for actually orienting the right way? I was thinking 65%, since there's a 50-50 chance it goes the right way, but the magnets can correct some errors.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't still be 50% for the magnet bomb's normal chance of orienting properly.

Also, what would be the kind of rules for creating Bomb Launchers of substandard size (for personal use)?

Since a bomb launcher is already launching normal-sized grenades, I don't think it could get much smaller. You'd have to reduce the number of grenades fired from 5 to 4 or 3 to make it smaller. I'd say something like, a Large sized bomb launcher shoots off 3 grenades, and a Medium one only launches 2 grenades.

Finally, and this is only a semi-serious question, could I use the Wonderous Item, Gauntlet of Rust, to protect my mech from rust. And if I did, could I then mount ten linked bomb launchers loaded with rust bombs? Expensive, sure, but the next mech I bear-hug will be a pile of oxidized iron at my feet.

That's a cool idea! Yeah, it should definitely be expensive, but that's a great idea. Maybe an eccentric coglayer somewhere in your world could spend years perfecting such a mech...

[goodmangames]

Wow, my brain is justing sparking with ideas tonight.

If I had an adamantine short sword, and I took levels in the anklebiter class, could I technically use the Sunder ability to literally carve open the mech? My guess would be yes, but that it might take several rounds to cut through enough bulkhead to let me in. Hardness from size wouldn't apply (I don't think) because I'm not trying to penetrate the hardness of the mech, just the hardness of the armor. Or would this be a situation where it would reduce the break DC considerably?

I'd agree, you could just start carving. In the boarding section (see p. 92 of DragonMech), the rule is that a *single attack* that does 20+ points of damage produces a hole large enough for a Medium creature. But if you just started carving with a weapon of some kind, I'd rule that once you hit 20 points of damage, you've carved out enough space for someone to squeeze through.

[goodmangames]

What plane would Dotrak come into being on? I would assume Mechanus, since it is not only the gearworks for the universe but also a lawful plane. But Dotrak is a neutral deity, yet machines sound lawful when applied to a traditional fantasy campaign.

After Dotrak comes into being as a full deity, will he be able to grant powers to clerics? If so, will the clerics of Dotrak be affected by the same type of spell problems that plauge non-Dotrakeon priests?

Will there be paladins of Dotrak wearing hydraulic armor? Will clockwork rangers form a small arm of the Church of Dotrak?

Or is the answer to all these questions "personal preference?" I don't mind if it is, but the first two paragraphs have some meaningful queries in them.

Personal preference.

[Sword Guy]

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't still be 50% for the magnet bomb's normal chance of orienting properly.

The 50-50 chance is to see whether it will wind up oriented properly, but I was thinking about how powerful the magnets would have to be (in order to keep the magnet bomb just taking off like a model rocket). It seemed that, if the magnets were activated upon the firing of the bomb launcher, they would have enough force to actually "pull" themselves onto a target. Of course, magnets that powerful might pull it on upside down, too . . .

As for the model rocket magnet bomb, that actually happened. One of the anklebiters I have in my group decided that (since he'd seen the glint of metal on his attacker) he would use a magnet bomb and attach it to the assailant's armor. The assailant wasn't wearing any metal armor, so it didn't attach. They spent two rounds grappling while the bomb timed down. The assailant was pinned to the mech, the anklebiter watching as the bomb's timer hit 0.

Then, the githyanki phased out.

The anklebiter shot ten feet into the air as the magnet bomb went off (taking 13 subdual damage), and the riftwalker simply stepped into a shadow and vanished.

I meant for the encounter to humble the PCs without destroying them, and it worked.

(Yay! I'm finally a member!)

[Sword Guy]

Thank you for the clarification on the rules for mechbuilding.

If I were to start carving, but I had the contortionist ability, how much damage do you think I'd need to get before I could fit through? Would a certain amount of damage lower than 20 need an Escape Artist check?

Possibly the DC for the Escape Artist check could be (20 + (20 - current damage) - anklebiter or stalker levels)? Would the hit points be different than 20 for more exotic materials? Mithral has 30 points per inch of thickness, so would carving through require more damage?

[Sword Guy]

Okay, another question, this time about hydraulic armor.

A DM in a campaign I'm playing ruled that, since the helmet, gloves, and boots were all included in the hydraulic armor, I could not put a magic item on any of those slots. I agreed with that, but thought that a wizard might be able to simply enchant the pieces themselves. Thoughts or comments?

Am I completely wrong about this?

[Reese]

personally, i would rule that you couldn't put on anything that wouldn't fit along with the gauntlets, boots, and helm

gloves, circlets, hats, socks (are there any magic socks? there are now ) would be OK, but they wouldn't function if they needed to directly touch the target (glove of storing, for instance) or needed to be touched to activate

i imagine you could enchant the entire armor the same way you would a regular piece of armor, for armor bonuses, but the gauntlets, helm, and boots in the illustration seem to be part of the suit, so they would have to be enchanted as part of a whole

(and you'd need to find a mage who would be willing to enchant a steam powered machine, such a mage being rather rare, as goodman mentioned to me on the subject of mech healing spells...)

of course, that's all my opinion, i imagine you'd like an official response (i know i would)

[Sword Guy]

I looked into the DMG to help resolve this.

Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body.
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn.
• One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head
• One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes
• One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck
• One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso
• One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)
• One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor)
• One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor)
• One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists
• One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands
• One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand)
• One pair of boots or shoes on the feet
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those listed above have no effect.
Some items can be worn or carried without taking up space on a character’s body. The description of an item indicates when an item has this property.

So magic socks would probably take up the "boots or shoes" slot, and a circlet or headband couldn't be worn. Enchanting the gauntlets wouldn't be hard, as the Player's Handbook specifies that "Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets." But then, the description of gauntlets reads "This metal glove protects your hands"

So, I assume that the gauntlets of hydraulic armor could be enchanted. But are the gloves enchantable? Are the gauntlets and gloves the same unit on a suit of hydraulic armor? Which items could be worn under the armor, and which over it (for sundering rules)?

[Reese]

with the exception of cloaks, capes, mantles, robes, hats, belts, and circlets, armor would go over or take the place of everything on that list
(and any of the above could be worn under armor, though would not nessesarily have it's effect while worn so)

from the exceptions i listed, i would say that only cloaks, capes, mantels, robes, belts, and circlets would be secure/securable while worn over the armor

a circlet is a very thin crown or pieve of head gear, and i would allow for one to be worn while wearing armor (either over the helment, or under it... usually under, but you might wear it over the helm to denote rank, much as a king would fit a crown on top of his helm)

looking at the armor again, i change my mind about the gauntlest being part of the whole... they look seperately removable, though they are indended to be part of the armor(the same goes for the suit's boots), and i would rule that the entire suit would have to be masterwork for any individual part to be enchanted (and that no part of one suit could be worn with part of a different suit... the gauntlest are designed as part of the armor, and shouldn't function with a different suit unless the two suits were exactly identical)

i would also rule that making the suit masterwork (for enchanting purposes) would require masterword costs and checks for each individual part set (all of which have to be made for the suit to function)

one check for the helm, one for arms, one for leggings, and one for the main body part... total of four checks and four masterwork costs, in other words (these are all negligible, in terms of money and skill, by the time you ahve the extra money to have the armor enchanted anyway, but i figured it should reflect the complexity of the machinery and also provide for some game balance, since an enchanted, masterwork hydralic armor would be pretty darn powerful)

[Sword Guy]

with the exception of cloaks, capes, mantles, robes, hats, belts, and circlets, armor would go over or take the place of everything on that list
(and any of the above could be worn under armor, though would not nessesarily have it's effect while worn so)

Robes are instead of armor, which has its own body slot. See above. Therefore, armor could be worn with anything except a robe. As for hydraulic armor specifically, I think that the only things it really replaces are the gauntlets, gloves, boots, and helmet slots. Each of those might be enchantable seperately.

looking at the armor again, i change my mind about the gauntlest being part of the whole... they look seperately removable, though they are indended to be part of the armor(the same goes for the suit's boots), and i would rule that the entire suit would have to be masterwork for any individual part to be enchanted (and that no part of one suit could be worn with part of a different suit... the gauntlest are designed as part of the armor, and shouldn't function with a different suit unless the two suits were exactly identical)

Exactly, couldn't agree more.

i would also rule that making the suit masterwork (for enchanting purposes) would require masterword costs and checks for each individual part set (all of which have to be made for the suit to function)

one check for the helm, one for arms, one for leggings, and one for the main body part... total of four checks and four masterwork costs, in other words (these are all negligible, in terms of money and skill, by the time you ahve the extra money to have the armor enchanted anyway, but i figured it should reflect the complexity of the machinery and also provide for some game balance, since an enchanted, masterwork hydralic armor would be pretty darn powerful)

I disagree. The masterworking costs are made to represent the entire suit being well-made. I think that means the entire suit, not just a specific part of it. If we could masterwork pieces of the suit individually, how would that affect the armor check penalty?

Besides, what is there that a masterwork helm gives? Damage bonuses when I'm "using my head?" The slam attack doesn't apply to the helmet, I don't think.

[Reese]

the pieces can't be individually masterworked

if you re-read my post, you'll se that i meant that a suit requires four time the normal masterworking cost and four checks (instead of one) to create the masterwork component, and i never meant for the four pieces to be individually created. this would represent the fact that all individual parts were made with the care and precision nessesary to make them enchantable.

normally, masterworking focuses only on making the functional parts better... in the case of armor, this means allowing better freedom of movement... and, normally, armor holds a single enchantment. ensuring that all parts of the armor are up to the level of quality nessesary for enchanting the parts seperately should take extra effort

also, consider this: making the suit's pieces individually enchantable means that you are technically making four different enchantable items, and in all fairness, a cost must be met to do so

if anything, quadrupling the masterworking requirements isn't really enough to counterbalance the potential effects

--edit--

i should also add that that list is in terms of magical effect(a robe and a piece of armor would not both be able to have a magical effect at the same time). it is not only possible to wear a robe over armor, is was also commonly used as a ruse to disguise the fact that the robe wearer had armor on underneath... though, generally, chainmail or somehting else as light and form fitting would have been worn under a robe, not something bulky like plate armor... (which would be pretty obvious under the robe)

[Ken Hart]

If I were to start carving, but I had the contortionist ability, how much damage do you think I'd need to get before I could fit through? Would a certain amount of damage lower than 20 need an Escape Artist check?

Possibly the DC for the Escape Artist check could be (20 + (20 - current damage) - anklebiter or stalker levels)?

Unofficially, I'd say that sounds reasonable, and I wouldn't limit it to just those with the contortionist ability -- anyone with a good enough Escape Artist skill should be able to give it a shot. The contortionist ability would just make it easier. For a minimal success (succeed by less than 5), I might toss in 1d4 of damage from scraping against the jagged edges as you squeeze through, but I could be overthinking this...

Would the hit points be different than 20 for more exotic materials? Mithral has 30 points per inch of thickness, so would carving through require more damage?

Excellent question. If the hole is meant to represent successful penetration of the hull, then I'd say you're right.

[Sword Guy]

Thank you for clarifying that you didn't mean masterworking seperate sections. I know enough history to understand (regardless of what the DMG says) that you are right about historical method. However, while I understand the idea, the DMG overrides it in this case. It will be true other places, and you could easily make it a house rule if you want.

Paying four times masterwork cost would certainly up the price a significant amount for lower-level characters, but at higher levels wouldn't make a difference. Again, you're right about that. But I would say that every suit of armor that is masterworked has all the components masterworked. While the DMG might not support me on getting masterwork gauntlets with a masterwork armor suit, it would support me in that the Gloves of Dexterity do not require "masterwork gloves," worth 300 gp and 1 sp. Likewise for the Gauntlet of Rust or the Glove of Storing. In all cases, it is the enchantment itself that gives the bonuses, not the item.

Besides, if the blacksmith needs to pay four times the cost and spend four times as much time crafting something, they're going to wonder why they have to do so. "Why can't those %$^# wizards just magicalize the thing?!"