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 Post subject: 4e
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:10 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:05 pm
Posts: 189
So. 4e.

Now that I've done some stuff with it, I have to say I'm a little puzzled/disappointed.

As you get up higher, level appropriate combats involve eroding huge piles of hit points with what amounts to sandpaper. To give an example borrowed from someone else, Disintegrate is a level 19 daily power that 5d10+Int damage. For a level 19 Wizard with 25 Int, that's an average damage of 32.5. For a daily power.

And the level 19 solo monster (which daily powers are meant to be used on), the Beholder Eye Tyrant, has 900 HP.

So it'd take an army of level 19 wizards at the most 28 hits with Disintegrate to kill one Eye Tyrant. And since they're fighting level-appropriate opposition, they'll be missing about half the time.

Am I the only one who finds something wrong with this?

Or, to put it another way, I feel like it's going to be feeling like this...

Projected 4e BBEG scene:
PC: "Now, Lord Darknaught, you shall pay for your crimes!" I roll a 27...that's 7 damage, plus I moved him four squares!"
GM: "Your god is weak ..." He dashes back to you and swings, you take 8 damage, plus he moves you ten squares.
All PCs: Oh crap! This guy's a major badass!


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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:08 am 
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I've barely scratched the surface of 4e... which is to say I can't really address the issue. But will that stop me? Apparently not... :mrgreen:

The thing that springs to mind, since you mention the wizard is this: spell selection in previous editions could make or break you. There were times when playing a magic-user/wizard/what-are-they-calling-it-this-time when I'd dominate the fight, and times when I was the fifth wheel, all based on what we were up against and what spells I had in my repertoire. And there was a great equalizer that I eventually discoverd: Scrolls. Dont' wait for them to show up in treasure, but buy, beg, borrow, or steal (alignment depending) any and all you can get your grubby little hands on. Even for spells you already know and prepare....

I'd be surprised with there weren't a similar, or even indentical work-around in 4th Edition.

As to another point, in Star Wars Saga Edition I believe their is a rule that says your level is part of your damage... As you go up in levels, you become more deadly, to the point where you can pick off Stormtroopers with one shot. And I had assumed that something like that would be a feature of D&D4. ...Is it not there? Maybe it should be... :mrgreen:

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:53 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:47 pm
Posts: 736
Location: Lexington, KY
GnomeBoy wrote:
I've barely scratched the surface of 4e... which is to say I can't really address the issue. But will that stop me? Apparently not... :mrgreen:

The thing that springs to mind, since you mention the wizard is this: spell selection in previous editions could make or break you. There were times when playing a magic-user/wizard/what-are-they-calling-it-this-time when I'd dominate the fight, and times when I was the fifth wheel, all based on what we were up against and what spells I had in my repertoire. And there was a great equalizer that I eventually discoverd: Scrolls. Dont' wait for them to show up in treasure, but buy, beg, borrow, or steal (alignment depending) any and all you can get your grubby little hands on. Even for spells you already know and prepare....

I'd be surprised with there weren't a similar, or even indentical work-around in 4th Edition.

As to another point, in Star Wars Saga Edition I believe their is a rule that says your level is part of your damage... As you go up in levels, you become more deadly, to the point where you can pick off Stormtroopers with one shot. And I had assumed that something like that would be a feature of D&D4. ...Is it not there? Maybe it should be... :mrgreen:


I have not found any mention of scrolls in the 4e books at all, and only 4 types of potions (all variations on healing).

A friend told me that whenever it says "STR modifier" it means "STR ability modifier + 1/2 your level", but if that rule is in the books it's buried pretty well. I haven't been able to find it even while specifically looking for it. Even if it is there, Arek's example wizard is still only doing slightly more damage. Though disintegrate is a somewhat better spell than Arek makes it out to be...it does an additional 10 damage per round until a save is made, and after the save is made it does an additional 5 damage per round until another save is made. Not to mention it does 3D10 + 5 ongoing damage even if you miss.

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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:42 am 
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mythfish wrote:
I have not found any mention of scrolls in the 4e books at all, and only 4 types of potions (all variations on healing).

Scrolls can be found in the Rituals section on page 298.

mythfish wrote:
A friend told me that whenever it says "STR modifier" it means "STR ability modifier + 1/2 your level", but if that rule is in the books it's buried pretty well. I haven't been able to find it even while specifically looking for it. Even if it is there, Arek's example wizard is still only doing slightly more damage. Though disintegrate is a somewhat better spell than Arek makes it out to be...it does an additional 10 damage per round until a save is made, and after the save is made it does an additional 5 damage per round until another save is made. Not to mention it does 3D10 + 5 ongoing damage even if you miss.

You might want to check the Damage rules on page 276 again.

It specifically says that you use the same Ability Score Modifier as you did for the Attack Roll. Compare that with the Attack Bonus section on page 274 where it specifically mentions that you add 1/2 your level to the bonus.

I take this to mean that unless it specifically says to add 1/2 your level, you don't get to add it to your damage. If you look at the character sheet for the 15th level Paladin here, you'll see that her level is not added to her basic weapon damage anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:58 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:05 pm
Posts: 189
My point is that there's just not many high-damage powers, even in the dailies, that would allow you to wrap up a fight in a short amount of time. Seriously, Disintegrate could do a number of d10 (or even d20's) equal to your level, and even if you somehow got a max roll on every one of that fistful of dice, you'd still be taking a lot less than half the Eye Tyrant's life away.

I've heard some conspiracy theorists say that 4e is so mechanically simple because WotC is aiming to go online and the way 4e is, it'd be easy to program into an MMORPG or something. I don't quit but it, but it doesn't help that before 4e came out, I was playing something rather similar...

www.kongregate.com/games/garin/monsters ... k-of-dread


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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:16 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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Arakor wrote:
Scrolls can be found in the Rituals section on page 298.

Ah, there they are! Hadn't looked through that section in detail yet. But it looks like in 4e scrolls are definitely non-combat assets, which makes them not a solution to Arek's problem.

Quote:
You might want to check the Damage rules on page 276 again.

It specifically says that you use the same Ability Score Modifier as you did for the Attack Roll. Compare that with the Attack Bonus section on page 274 where it specifically mentions that you add 1/2 your level to the bonus.

I take this to mean that unless it specifically says to add 1/2 your level, you don't get to add it to your damage. If you look at the character sheet for the 15th level Paladin here, you'll see that her level is not added to her basic weapon damage anywhere.

I agree with the way you read it, but I can see how someone else might read it differently. The character sheet gives little room for interpretation, though. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:41 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Omaha, NE, USA
I've been running DCC#18 Citadel of the Demon Prince with a group of seven PC's, over half of whom are die-hard power-gamers or WoW addicts. This adventure is designed for levels 12-13 put my PCs started at 10th-11th level. One of the main demon lords, Red Wisdom (CR 12), has telekenetic powers and a whole library of bookcases to hurl at the PC's for 10d6 DMG each. In a surpise round, Red Wisdom was able to shoot off an Unholy Blight and spent his first round bashing a couple of PCs with a bookcase (one of whom had the Evasion feat and took no damage). Red Wisdom never lived to see another round. NONE of the CR 11 or 12 NPC monsters have lasted more than three rounds. The best fights we've had so far this adventure were against a couple of Stone Golems (CR 11) and the Caryatid Columns (CR 7).

I'm hoping that in 4E the boss monsters will last a lot longer than a couple of rounds! From what I can tell, WotC nixed all of the "instant death" save/die effects from the game. I suspect this will be a good thing in the long run. PC's won't have to worry about giving up the ghost due to a well placed crit, and battles will be far more varied and interesting to play.

I'm not happy with some of the changes in the Alignment structure (Lawful Good paladins can't serve a Good diety, but Un-Aligned clerics can? :shock: :roll: ) But I'm overjoyed that the dreaded SPELL LISTS are finally gone for good! :D I'm hoping to playtest 4E sometime next month, so I'll find out soon enough how well my expectaions hold up...

RE: 4E damage bonuses:

Having just filled out my first 4E character sheet earlier this week, I think it's safe to say that you usually add half your level (rounded down) to your attacks (+ appropirate ability modifier), but rarely, if ever, to damage. You don't even get to add your STR bonus to your weapon damage unless you have an encounter power that allows you to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:18 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 7:47 pm
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My brother has played the 4e Shadowfell adventure. In his opinion a fight with a high hit point monster will probably take more rounds but rounds are dramatically shorter to run. So even if you have sandpaper down the hit points it won't take that long in real time.

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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:51 pm
Posts: 108
Lol, I really like how you can't um, DISINTEGRATE anything with disintegrate.


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 Post subject: Re: 4e
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:42 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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JRR wrote:
Lol, I really like how you can't um, DISINTEGRATE anything with disintegrate.

I was amused at how Drawmij's Instant Summons is really Drawmij's Hour-long Summons.

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