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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:55 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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I am sorry to say I have decided to stay away from 4E in its entirety. I wish Goodman Games all the best. Maybe we'll cross paths again in 5E. Unless your still able to do 3E/C&C/1E compatible stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:31 pm 
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joela wrote:
GnomeBoy wrote:
Maybe I should shut up about 4th Ed. stuff until the advent of 5e. :|

What do you mean? :shock:

Oh, I'm not leaving GG behind in any way, shape or form! I just meant that the last few comments I've made about 4th Ed., and related issues, has been wrong, ...or ill-informed, at best.

You don't seriously think I'm going to shut up, do you? :shock: I'd miss my thread-killing and thread-derailing abilities! They're At-Will powers, y'know.... :wink:

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:04 pm 
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I heard through a mutual friend you won't be committed to just 4E. Thats good to hear.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:41 am 
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For those of you who are wondering about today's news post: yes, those products really will be available before October 1. I generally don't discuss business in public forums but because there will be questions, I am posting here to confirm yes, it is true, as is the blurb in the back of yesterday's Free RPG Day release. 'Nuff said... now enjoy reading about Punjar with the freebies from yesterday. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:11 am 
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goodmangames wrote:
For those of you who are wondering about today's news post: yes, those products really will be available before October 1. I generally don't discuss business in public forums but because there will be questions, I am posting here to confirm yes, it is true, as is the blurb in the back of yesterday's Free RPG Day release. 'Nuff said... now enjoy reading about Punjar with the freebies from yesterday. :)


Joseph, I love you man!
I can't wait to be at Gen Con this year ;)

Hyb'


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am
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goodmangames wrote:
'Nuff said... now enjoy reading about Punjar with the freebies from yesterday. :)


Thanks for the update on the new DCCs. And I'll probably be writing up a review on Punjar shortly.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:30 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:50 pm
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Location: Elfrida, Arizona
Come on Joe! Fess up! Are you going GSL or are you going "generic", meaning a non copyright infringing trademark respecting alternative?

Selling before October indicates the latter.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:49 pm 
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Treebore wrote:
Come on Joe! Fess up! Are you going GSL or are you going "generic", meaning a non copyright infringing trademark respecting alternative?

Selling before October indicates the latter.

Does it?

*cough*consession*cough*


...where'd that totally uninformed*, undereducated* guess come from?


(* That's in reference to me btw, Mr. T.)

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:37 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:50 pm
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Location: Elfrida, Arizona
It came from the fact he is violating the GSL by making 4E product for sale before October 1st. So he either is not publishing under the GSL license, or has some kind of special secret agreement with WOTC giving him permission to violate this particular clause of the GSL, or they are publishing compatible material in the old school fashion of avoiding copyright and trademark violations, or something totally different.

So I, and other nosy inquiring minds want to know exactly how Goodman Games is selling before October 1st.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:14 am 
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Treebore wrote:
So I, and other nosy inquiring minds want to know exactly how Goodman Games is selling before October 1st.


Just remember that in Joseph message there was:

[quote=goodmangames]I generally don't discuss business in public forums [/quote]

Which means that we must be happy to know there will be early release, but we'll have to wait to know more (if we ever know!).

Hyb'


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:50 pm
Posts: 416
Location: Elfrida, Arizona
Hybban wrote:
Treebore wrote:
So I, and other nosy inquiring minds want to know exactly how Goodman Games is selling before October 1st.


Just remember that in Joseph message there was:

[quote=goodmangames]I generally don't discuss business in public forums


Which means that we must be happy to know there will be early release, but we'll have to wait to know more (if we ever know!).

Hyb'[/quote]


We'll definitely know when the product is in hand. It will either have the GSL stuff in it, or it won't. If it does he got a special exception from WOTC (entirely possible) or Joe is going the copyright/trademark route.

Besides I am not asking Joe to discuss business details, just to say he is GSL compatible, or he isn't. That tells me all I want to know.

Personally I hope he went the C/T route. No, I am not talking Classic Traveller, but Copyright/Trademark.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:33 am 
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Hi new poster here :wink: .

I'm crazy OTT excited about Goodman's announcement of its intent to produce 4E products. I missed out on the 3/3.5 DCC until I was to heavily invested elsewhere, now I get to be there at the beginning. Tres cool. With Necromancer coming over to the 4E side as well I'm really looking forward to some quality products.

Thats all really. Moving along....

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"Birthright" on the WOTC forums or "Birthright" at The Piazza.


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:36 pm 
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Well, I have an official answer now. Now to see what the overall ramifications will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Treebore, are you allowed to share the "official answer?" Is it posted somewhere and I'm blind?


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:50 pm
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He will stop selling 3E DCC's "later this year". Pretty solid proof he is going GSL. Not 100%, but close enough for me. I'd love to be wrong, though.
Only the 4E GSL would make Joe not sell 3E DCC's. Not the D20 STL, or anything else, only going the GSL.

So between stopping selling 3E DCC's and his DCC products announced being "4E", I am pretty convinced.

Feel free to make me wrong Joe.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:13 am
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Treebore wrote:
He will stop selling 3E DCC's "later this year". Pretty solid proof he is going GSL. Not 100%, but close enough for me. I'd love to be wrong, though.
Only the 4E GSL would make Joe not sell 3E DCC's. Not the D20 STL, or anything else, only going the GSL.


Well, as I note, the 3E DCC's aren't OGL; they're under the actual d20 License, which means they will expire regardless of going with the GSL or not. At this point, they may have been in the market long enough that future sales don't warrant the effort to make them OGL compliable, especially if that same effort could be channelled into more profitable ventures.

So there is another possible reason besides the 4E GSL to discontinue and discount the products.


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:50 pm
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Blackhawk wrote:
Treebore wrote:
He will stop selling 3E DCC's "later this year". Pretty solid proof he is going GSL. Not 100%, but close enough for me. I'd love to be wrong, though.
Only the 4E GSL would make Joe not sell 3E DCC's. Not the D20 STL, or anything else, only going the GSL.


Well, as I note, the 3E DCC's aren't OGL; they're under the actual d20 License, which means they will expire regardless of going with the GSL or not. At this point, they may have been in the market long enough that future sales don't warrant the effort to make them OGL compliable, especially if that same effort could be channelled into more profitable ventures.

So there is another possible reason besides the 4E GSL to discontinue and discount the products.



your only right if Joe doesn't remove the d20 STL logos from his PDF's. Plus they are "OGL", if they weren't, he wouldn't have a copy of the OGL license in every DCC.

So if Joe were to remove the D20 STL logo's he could indeed continue to sell his OGL DCC's.

Something I am positive Joe would do, unless he was planning on going with the 4E GSL.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Treebore wrote:
your only right if Joe doesn't remove the d20 STL logos from his PDF's. Plus they are "OGL", if they weren't, he wouldn't have a copy of the OGL license in every DCC.

So if Joe were to remove the D20 STL logo's he could indeed continue to sell his OGL DCC's.

Something I am positive Joe would do, unless he was planning on going with the 4E GSL.


Course it's not simply a matter of removing the logo. On almost 60 products, they would have to also remove the d20 License mandatory attribution and the trademark use as well, and then perhaps most importantly, since the OGL doesn't allow any use of product identity while the d20 License allowed reference to some D&D products, each individual 3E DCC would have to be gone through to insure any such references are removed.

While the d20 license is inclusive of the OGL, it is also allows more while being more restrictive. It's not just a logo on the cover. As I said, rather than trying to make sure nearly 60 products (most of which have already seen their initial sales) are compliant, it could be easier to just drop the PDFs and put that effort into making new products. Why go back and put a lot of effort into making something compatible for system that isn't currently supported when that energy could go into products for a system that is.

It doesn't have to be a GSL license decision; it could just be a smart business decision.

Anyway, we'll see eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:46 pm 
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Blackhawk wrote:
Anyway, we'll see eventually.



Yep. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:28 pm 
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I just have to smile at all the folks in different forums (specially Paizo) that said 4E would be a dud.


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:51 am 
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xredjasonx wrote:
I just have to smile at all the folks in different forums (specially Paizo) that said 4E would be a dud.


I never thought 4E would be a dud but it is a different upgrade from the past. When 2E came out I had no interest in playing 1E again. When 3E came out I had no interest in playing 2E again. When 3.5 came out I was annoyed but have learned to understand the reasoning and have no interest in playing 3.0 again. 4E is the first to buck that trend. While 4E is new and interesting game, it doesn't have a lot of the old D&D feel. I will play 4E but I will also continue to play 3.5. I actually bought DragonMech rather recently to run.

(I was excited that Paizo is going to continue with 3.5 but looking at the alpha has lessened that enjoyment. Races and classes will need to modified before using in it because they up the power of the base races and classes.)

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:38 pm 
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xredjasonx wrote:
I just have to smile at all the folks in different forums (specially Paizo) that said 4E would be a dud.



I don't think anyone was saying 4e would be a dud. I saw people wishing it would be, but the main assertion was that people would not abandon 3E wholesale for 4E. I think Paizo is proving they were right.

From what I have been reading on message boards, and seeing in stores, and hearing from friends around the US and Canada I would say the 30% estimate for people staying with 3E is pretty darn close.

If it is close, it is numbers WOTC sure did not want to see.

They will hail their hot initial sales as proof of their success, but the real proof will be how well follow up books sell.

I think if 30%, or so, are staying with 3E, the 4E market will cool down faster than the 3E market crashed.

So by Christmas of 2009 we will being seeing how successful 4E truly is. As well as 3E stay behinds like Paizo.

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Some people saty with 3.5 AND play 4.0 at the same time (like me).
Are they in the 30% or in the 70%. Most of the people that said that they wanted to stay in 3.5 now play both because:
- they like 4th edition
- many GM have turned to 4E because it's easier to DM
- people play what the DM propose when they don't want to be behind the screen

And like me, they also play/run C&C and RIFTS :)

Hyb'


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:56 pm 
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The next year will be very interesting to see how things shake out. Most folks who enjoy Castles & Crusades have been hoping to see a swell of support if disgruntled gamers leave WotC's product and seek something else.

Necromancer Games and Goodman Games have hitched their wagons to a greater or lesser degree to the juggernaut that is WotC's Dungeons and Dragons.

What will the outcome be? My guess is most gamers will stay to some extent with the new fourth edition. How many and to what extent is honestly like expecting a weatherman to give you a seven day forecast and expect the last two days to be accurate. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Treebore wrote:
xredjasonx wrote:
I just have to smile at all the folks in different forums (specially Paizo) that said 4E would be a dud.

... the main assertion was that people would not abandon 3E wholesale for 4E. I think Paizo is proving they were right. .... They will hail their hot initial sales as proof of their success, but the real proof will be how well follow up books sell. .... I think if 30%, or so, are staying with 3E, the 4E market will cool down faster than the 3E market crashed. ....

Let's not overlook the new-blood factor. When I bought my DMG* using a gift certificate at a failry large gaming store not near me at all they had two displays of 4th Edition in the store and both had them things, um, what are they called again? ...teenagers? Yeah, that's it. Both displays had two or three teenagers hovering around discussing the game. That's not me seeing purchases ...but buzz is good, and can translate well into purchases. I can remember hovering in just that way at that age, since I didn't have the disposable income to plunk down on anything I wanted at will.** But once I had the cash, I would. That'll be what makes or breaks 4th Edition, IMO.

As a sidebar to that vignette, apparently nerddom is alive and well in the younger generation. There was some kind of tournement starting when I was making my purchase. A young kid was going to be the time keeper but didn't have in his words, "a portable time keeping device". He and the guy behind the counter proceeded to go back and forth on was there such a "device" available and was it even needed if the guy at the counter could just keep an eye on the clock and holler back at the game room when time was up. Shamefully, I resisted the chance to mention that, in my day, we used to call those things "watches".


*My PHB was a gift.
**Still can't presently, as it turns out. :?

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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