Goodman Games and 4E

JediOre · **Posted:** Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:28 pm

I also understand this license from WotC will forbid a third-party vendor from using the OGL from which all versions of 3.X come from.

Will this stop Goodman Games from publishing further Castles & Crusades modules along with their other game lines?

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

JediOre wrote:

Will this stop Goodman Games from publishing further Castles & Crusades modules along with their other game lines?

GG would have to if the company wants to publish 4E stuff. Per Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4172942&postcount=51

Quote:

I believe, in fact, that it is even a bit more restrictive than people are seeing. It is not just that you cant mix the two licenses in one product. It is that if you use the GSL you cannot also use the OGL for 3E products.

In other words, publishers have to decide if they want to stay 3E or if they want to come along for the 4E ride.

It is not a product by product choice. It is a business by business choice. It is not "well, this product will be 4E using the GSL but the next one will be for 3E under the OGL."

In other words, Necro cant do 3 books for 4E then decide to go back and do a 3E book.

Or, along the same lines, if Paizo wants to do Pathfinder 3E, it cant do 4E products. If it does, it can no longer do 3E ones.

I have, however, specifically clarified that Necro can do 4E and Paizo can keep doing 3E Pathfinder stuff and that is just fine.

Once you are in for 4E, you are in, and cant go back (well, you could but you would presumably lose the right to use the GSL from that point forward).

I have to clarify if I will be able to do 3E stats as seperate downloads for 4E books. My guess is that I will not be allowed to do that under the GSL. But I havent asked that direct question.

By the way, this info was from Wizards. Unless I am misunderstanding what they told me or they didnt understand my question, this is how it will be.

Clark

According to some other forums, companies like Necromancer Games and Goodman Games have until year's end to get rid of all their 3.x/OGL stock. Once they do so, the only D&D products they'll be selling will be 4E-compliant products. Period. End of story. Want a 3.x DCC? Sorry. Go to ebay.

And yes, C&C is OGL.

GnomeBoy · **Posted:** Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:44 am

joela wrote:

JediOre wrote:

Will this stop Goodman Games from publishing further Castles & Crusades modules along with their other game lines?

GG would have to if the company wants to publish 4E stuff.

So, the immediate thought that occurs to me is, can a freelancer submit to both OGL and GSL publishers? I think it'd be obviously fair for illustrators to work for either type of company. What about writers?

If that were fair under the rules, a freelance writer could submit an adventure to DCC and C&C, and as long as GG and TLG didn't cry foul, there could then be two versions of the 'same' adventure on the market.... n'est pas?

I'm not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to understand....

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

GnomeBoy wrote:

So, the immediate thought that occurs to me is, can a freelancer submit to both OGL and GSL publishers? I think it'd be obviously fair for illustrators to work for either type of company. What about writers?

If that were fair under the rules, a freelance writer could submit an adventure to DCC and C&C, and as long as GG and TLG didn't cry foul, there could then be two versions of the 'same' adventure on the market.... n'est pas?

I'm not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to understand....

Unknown at this time. I'll keep an eye out. Best bet would be to see future WotC contracts; specifically, any clause that says such 4E work cannot be issued in 3.x format no matter who's the publisher.

PeelSeel2 · **Joined:** Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:04 pm **Posts:** 86

I spy a sale on GG home page for 3.5e DCC's starting in may. Also in the flyer is what looks suspiciously like a Goodman Games 4E DCC!! wOOt!!

Warduke · **Posted:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:00 pm

when i zoom in on the image i can read "forges of the mountain king." looks like the author is one mister adrian pommier of tournament fame! W00T!

Warduke · **Posted:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:04 pm

and with a release date in AUGUST, baby.

Jonathan Moyer · **Joined:** Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:11 pm **Posts:** 70

I said it before and I'll say it again ... I can't wait.

I like the new cover style as well.

Jonathan Moyer · **Joined:** Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:11 pm **Posts:** 70

I'm reading the freebie text of "The Blackguard's Revenge" (I don't have it, but I'm thinking about picking up a few 3e DCCs before I can no longer do it), and came across this line:

"Consumed by their anger, the cast-outs turned from the god of valor, embracing the god of vengeance and slaughter and his dark promise of retribution."

In 4e, the god of valor and most paladins will be Bahamut, and the god(dess) of vengence will be Tiamat. Both gods will also have an ancient rivalry in the assumed setting of 4e. The passage goes on to explain how the heretics returned from the southlands with a cambion sorcerer and demonic allies (this is easily changed to an infernal pact Warlock with some devil allies). I just think it's neat how the backstory of this adventure works almost effortlessly with the assumed 4e setting. On this and other things (tieflings = priest kings of Nimoria, dragonborn = dragon kings, "points of light," dynamic dungeons etc.), it seems like GG anticipated a variety of WotC's plans for 4e quite a few years in advance. Or, at least, the two companies were very much on the same wavelength.

It would be cool if WotC lets GG use the 4e gods for their products. I'd love to see what the gang could do with Bahamut, the Raven Queen, Vecna, and all the rest.

Warduke · **Posted:** Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:40 am

i think you hit it on the head, moyer. i read post by harley a while back, and it sounds like goodman games lucked into the perfect spot for 4e. more synchronicity than planning, but that's still great news to all of us!

PeelSeel2 · **Joined:** Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:04 pm **Posts:** 86

I do not think they lucked into it. I think they where just that in tune with the spirit of 'Old AD&D', something which 4E is striving to recapture. I think it's a great compliment to GG's vision.

nwelte · **Joined:** Sun May 18, 2008 10:43 am **Posts:** 1

How does GG's decision to go with 4E affect its ability to publish modules for C&C?

Hybban · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:46 pm **Posts:** 74

So now that the GSL have been released, can we have an official answer as to the future of the C&C modules? Will there be conversions of the 3.5 DCC? I know that in my FLGS, they will be pissed if they had to get rid of the dozens of DCC modules they still have on their shelves...

Hyb'

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

Hybban wrote:

So now that the GSL have been released, can we have an official answer as to the future of the C&C modules? Will there be conversions of the 3.5 DCC? I know that in my FLGS, they will be pissed if they had to get rid of the dozens of DCC modules they still have on their shelves...

Hyb'

RE: C&C. From my read of the GSL and other, more knowledgeable folks interpretation of it, don't expect to see DCC conversions to C&C in the future. GG would need to create a whole new C&C product line and walk carefully to keep both it and 4E distinct and separate. As for your FLGS, it's fine: the GSL only affects publishers. However, I recommend the store owner buy as many DCC mods as possible since GG will have to discontinue selling its backstop by the beginning of next year.

Hybban · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:46 pm **Posts:** 74

RE: C&C. From my read of the GSL and other, more knowledgeable folks interpretation of it, don't expect to see DCC conversions to C&C in the future. GG would need to create a whole new C&C product line and walk carefully to keep both it and 4E distinct and separate. As for your FLGS, it's fine: the GSL only affects publishers. However, I recommend the store owner buy as many DCC mods as possible since GG will have to discontinue selling its backstop by the beginning of next year.[/quote]

Ok, and for the DCC up to #52, do you think you will provide conversion to 4th ed or not?

Hyb'

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

Hybban wrote:

Ok, and for the DCC up to #52, do you think you will provide conversion to 4th ed or not?

Hyb'

I'd be surprised if there was such a conversion.

Hybban · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:46 pm **Posts:** 74

joela wrote:

I'd be surprised if there was such a conversion.

I suppose that even free conversion are out of question...
But can we provide fan made conversions?

Hyb'

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

Hybban wrote:

joela wrote:

I'd be surprised if there was such a conversion.

I suppose that even free conversion are out of question...
But can we provide fan made conversions?

Hyb'

On the boards? Most likely. But no one with Goodman Games can provide such conversions (and probably not comment on them, either).

GnomeBoy · **Posted:** Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:56 am

joela wrote:

But no one with Goodman Games can provide such conversions (and probably not comment on them, either).

...Wasn't there some word on this already... that there could be conversions into 4th Ed.?

They can't continue publishing the old 3.x mods, as I understand it, but I don't think there's anything stopping them from providing 4e versions in some form, if they wanted to do so....

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

GnomeBoy wrote:

joela wrote:

But no one with Goodman Games can provide such conversions (and probably not comment on them, either).

...Wasn't there some word on this already... that there could be conversions into 4th Ed.?

You mean the flyer? Apparently it was made and published before the GSL was released. Joseph was, to be kind, livid and had a few choice words with WotC reps when he found out his flyer info was suddenly invalid. :evil:

GnomeBoy wrote:

...but I don't think there's anything stopping them from providing 4e versions in some form, if they wanted to do so....

Sure they can. The GSL, which expressly forbids conversions, reference to prior 3.x OGL material, yaddayadda. Several gamers/lawyers have extensively analyzed the GSL. To me, though, the actions of Necromancer Games head honcho Clark Peterson -- who is a lawyer -- is especially telling: he will not be publishing Tome of Horrors in 4E or, most likely, any of his previously 3.x OGL material. Instead, he's considering a brand new lineup.

My thoughts? Forget all about your older material and open your pocketbooks for new gaming goodness :wink:

Hybban · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:46 pm **Posts:** 74

joela wrote:

My thoughts? Forget all about your older material and open your pocketbooks for new gaming goodness :wink:

I won't forget the old material, it was soooooo good

I'll end up using that with C&C, or I'll make my own adaptation for 4th Ed, meaning: I keep floor plans, basic ideas (monster roster, traps) and I redesign everything with the 4th ed books.

If I'm courageous, I'll post them on the boards, unless posting things is prohibited by the GSL :roll:

But I understand Joseph. He has been, with Clark, one of the fervent defender of 4th Ed and promoted it, and WotC had a very strange way to thank you. By chance, maybe priviledged editor can have better arrangements with WotC...

Hyb'

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

Hybban wrote:

I won't forget the old material, it was soooooo good

No argument there :lol:

Hybban wrote:

If I'm courageous, I'll post them on the boards, unless posting things is prohibited by the GSL :roll:

From my understanding, fans can post all they want. It's the publishers who are barred upon pain of losing their license to publish 4E-compatible stuff. HOWEVER, there is a clause about fan-made sites. We'll see if Goodman Games forums fall under it. :shock:

Hybban wrote:

But I understand Joseph. He has been, with Clark, one of the fervent defender of 4th Ed and promoted it, and WotC had a very strange way to thank you. By chance, maybe privileged editor can have better arrangements with WotC...Hyb'

There has been speculation that WotC deliberately designed the GSL to be restrictive to encourage private deals with companies (i.e., it gets a share of the 3PP's profits in exchange for, hmmm, converting older products, etc.) Again, it's pure speculation, though.

Hybban · **Joined:** Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:46 pm **Posts:** 74

joela wrote:

From my understanding, fans can post all they want. It's the publishers who are barred upon pain of losing their license to publish 4E-compatible stuff. HOWEVER, there is a clause about fan-made sites. We'll see if Goodman Games forums fall under it. :shock:

Let's say I create a fan site, if the author of a DCC module, gives me the conversion (it doesn't have to name the author of the conversion), I could publish it then on my fan site then... And my RPG dealer, can print this conversion and give it for free (because, it's not official, you know) to anybody that buys a 3.5 DCC...

Can't wait to know more about this.

Hyb'

GnomeBoy · **Posted:** Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:54 pm

Well, sorry guys, guess this is me being underinformed and underaware again.

Maybe I should shut up about 4th Ed. stuff until the advent of 5e.

joela · **Joined:** Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:44 am **Posts:** 147

GnomeBoy wrote:

Maybe I should shut up about 4th Ed. stuff until the advent of 5e.

What do you mean? :shock:

I've played/DM'd 4E and it's fun and exciting. NG and GG, based on their past history and products, will have exciting new shinies to entertain us for the next, hmmm, 8 years or so. And WotC is getting into the mod biz, too, so you'll have lots of choices.

You just need to put all your 3.x OGL stuff with your other, older non-supported games.

Goodman Games

Goodman Games and 4E

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